Our new heroes.

[moroten]

Like Arthur Hawking said to Hurin the Sniffer, the wheel rarely ties heroes to itself. But I wonder if and if yes who you think the the wheel will add from this storyline?

 

Imo, Mat should definetly be among them if people are added. Maybe Lan aswell.

 

Any ideas?

[Titan Orion]

Rand

[Dark Justice]

Rand is tied to the wheel.. He has been since the first dragon, and will be untill the last dragon.

 

That some new heroes might be added is a possibility. I do not see it very probable that any of them will be added thoug...

[Mr Ares]

But I wonder if and if yes who you think the the wheel will add from this storyline?

No-one. I don't see the need, and I would rather not see characters I like suffer such a fate.

 

Imo, Mat should definetly be among them if people are added. Maybe Lan aswell.

Why?

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

Hurin, because of the epic foreshadowing. it would be pretty cool to see though.

[moroten]

But I wonder if and if yes who you think the the wheel will add from this storyline?

No-one. I don't see the need, and I would rather not see characters I like suffer such a fate.

 

Imo, Mat should definetly be among them if people are added. Maybe Lan aswell.

Why?

 

Ok Mr Sunshine, its your opinion that it would be a horrible ending for our characters and it is my opinion that it would be a pretty cool one.

 

When it comes to Mat, he does what is needed of him, and like the Amyrlin said that is what most of their heroes did. Ofc there are a couple of characters that do like Mat but imo he has this special feeling for it. He is also a great tactician and asset to the light and he has his unique features like the hat, scarf and the odd spear. Most of the heroes of we have been told have had distinct features such as those. I have prolly forgotten some stuff aswell, but this is mostly on what I base my opinion to why Mat should be added.

[water_seeker]

But I wonder if and if yes who you think the the wheel will add from this storyline?

No-one. I don't see the need, and I would rather not see characters I like suffer such a fate.

 

Imo, Mat should definetly be among them if people are added. Maybe Lan aswell.

Why?

 

Ok Mr Sunshine, its your opinion that it would be a horrible ending for our characters and it is my opinion that it would be a pretty cool one.

 

When it comes to Mat, he does what is needed of him, and like the Amyrlin said that is what most of their heroes did. Ofc there are a couple of characters that do like Mat but imo he has this special feeling for it. He is also a great tactician and asset to the light and he has his unique features like the hat, scarf and the odd spear. Most of the heroes of we have been told have had distinct features such as those. I have prolly forgotten some stuff aswell, but this is mostly on what I base my opinion to why Mat should be added.

 

Oh yes, Mat just would NOT make it as a hero without his super-cool hat... ::)

 

I'm with Mr Ares on this one.  I don't see anyone from this age hitching a ride on the wheel.

[Mr Ares]

Ok Mr Sunshine, its your opinion that it would be a horrible ending for our characters and it is my opinion that it would be a pretty cool one.

You think it would be cool for someone who is not a big fan of battles to be doomed to be endlessly woven out to fight them, again and again, for so long that even in his earliest memories, he knows he has done this hundreds, thousands of times before? You think it would be cool for a guy who fights an endless war to be doomed to never know peace?

 

When it comes to Mat, he does what is needed of him, and like the Amyrlin said that is what most of their heroes did.

So do a lot of people.

He is also a great tactician and asset to the light

So are quite a few people.

he has his unique features like the hat, scarf

Yes, hats and scarves are unique features.

[Titan Orion]

I can understand why people would WANT Mat to be connected to the Horn. He looks the part. The hat, the scarf, and the ashandarei together are what makes him look so cool. Im waiting for the part where we a stranger leaning casually against a wall, head looking down so the hat hides his face, sword-spear looking like its casually left against the wall, and then man looks up and its Mat, and then he comes out with a one-liner.

 

For some reason the fact that Mat blew the Horn makes me think it less likely that he will become a Hero. I didnt think he would anyway, but thinking about it now it seems abit tacky if the person who blew it would be later summoned by it.

 

Nah, neither Mat or Perrin will be bound I think, and Rand will only be summoned until the next Dragon incarnation is spun out.

[Perrin 187]

Rand is already bound and I think if you read the text close enough both mat and perrin might already be bound.

 

Before Mat recieved his memories he had flashbacks in TDR about the fall of manthere. Also his luck throughout his life has always been unusually good they just are now on steroids by KOD. I think his memories and Luck have to do with past lives. Most likely a hero of Mantheren I think.

 

Perrin, had his encounter with Lanfear in TDR. That is when she told him he had no idea who he really was. She gave him a glimpse of his past lives and he ended up being in a full suit of gold armor with all sorts of amazing livery. It then disappears and I forget what happens after, but you can see my point. On wotmania this event led to someone making a pretty good theory that Perrin might have been Artur Hawkwing. I don't believe the theory since the historical accounts say Hawkwing hated channelers,(layed siege to Tar Valon) and had people labor to create great monuments of him,( not very Perrin like). Funny enough if this were true, this would make Perrin techinally Berelain's Great, Great, Great, Great, granduncle. This is because Hawkwing had no surviving heir, and this is the most likely way Berelain is related to Hawkwing. That is if my WOT history is correct. But I have no idea what past lives Perrin lived to not be able to fathom what he truly is, thats in Lanfear' words. She could have simply made it all up she was trying to seduce Perrin. But if Mat and Rand are tied to the wheel, which seems likely, then Perrin probably is. 

[Titan Orion]

Rand is already bound and I think if you read the text close enough both mat and perrin might already be bound.

 

Before Mat recieved his memories he had flashbacks in TDR about the fall of manthere. Also his luck throughout his life has always been unusually good they just are now on steroids by KOD. I think his memories and Luck have to do with past lives. Most likely a hero of Mantheren I think.

 

Mats luck has nothing to do with the Horn, it began after he got Fains dagger. Mats memories are not of past lives but of men who have been to the Finns, whichever of the Finns it was I can never remember. Nothing about Mat relates to past lives, only Rand. ONLY Rand.

 

[Perrin 187]

Rand is already bound and I think if you read the text close enough both mat and perrin might already be bound.

 

Before Mat recieved his memories he had flashbacks in TDR about the fall of manthere. Also his luck throughout his life has always been unusually good they just are now on steroids by KOD. I think his memories and Luck have to do with past lives. Most likely a hero of Mantheren I think.

 

Mats luck has nothing to do with the Horn, it began after he got Fains dagger. Mats memories are not of past lives but of men who have been to the Finns, whichever of the Finns it was I can never remember. Nothing about Mat relates to past lives, only Rand. ONLY Rand.

 

Your right I forgot, damn. But blowing the horn alone and being Ta'veern, I would think would be enough to bind him to the wheel. You also have what all three of them have yet to do at Tarmon Gaidon, I think it is likely all three could be bound to the wheel by the end of the series.

[Wonzer]

We all know that Rand is tied to the horn (or at leats reborn time after time to fight the shadow), but we don't know who else could also be. Wheel has used multible heroes at the same time before (Birgitte & Cain for example)and when the TG is the most important event in this age I bet that there's more than one hero in the world at the moment. Mat and Perrin are almost as important as Rand so I think they at least are heroes of the horn. Maybe someone else too: Egwene, Lan, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Thom...?

[moroten]

Ok Mr Sunshine, its your opinion that it would be a horrible ending for our characters and it is my opinion that it would be a pretty cool one.

You think it would be cool for someone who is not a big fan of battles to be doomed to be endlessly woven out to fight them, again and again, for so long that even in his earliest memories, he knows he has done this hundreds, thousands of times before? You think it would be cool for a guy who fights an endless war to be doomed to never know peace?

 

When it comes to Mat, he does what is needed of him, and like the Amyrlin said that is what most of their heroes did.

So do a lot of people.

He is also a great tactician and asset to the light

So are quite a few people.

he has his unique features like the hat, scarf

Yes, hats and scarves are unique features.

 

Wow, it never ceases to amaze me peoples abilities to take an argument pick it apart and take pieces of it to argue against. You are right, a scarf and a hat has nothing unique about it...now add these 2 together and the spear and also the pov(dont remember who) that said it was easy to pick out Mat since he had his strange spear and hat, this together makes an unique appereance that is Mat. Birgitte for example, everyone remember her features, but what so special about a golden braid? Nothing is the answer, but everything added together becomes Birgette.

 

This concerns the same of the other argument that you chose to pick apart. Yes there are lot of tacticians out there and people burdened by allways doing the right thing...now listen to this, its Mat's combination of everything to makes him special.

 

And about Mat getting tied to the wheel, he wont be reborn with Mats personality, just his skills. Rand aint the mirror of Lews Therin. The personality and wether the person will like fighting war completly depends on where the person grew up. I know this argument aint foolproof, but its the way I have interpreted things, so imo I dont send Mat to a horrible doom by wanting him tied to the wheel.

 

But hey...everyone loves the pessimist...oh wait.

[Shard]

Your all assuming that Mat isn't already tied to the Wheel.

[Luckers]

Well, given that Hawkwing singles Rand out, but doesn't mention the others, that seems likely.

[water_seeker]

Well, given that Hawkwing singles Rand out, but doesn't mention the others, that seems likely.

 

Indeed, he refers to Mat as Trumpeter and Perrin as Bannerman.

 

When Mat asks, "Is this...is this all of you?" The reply is:

 

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn."  Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.  "Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.  "Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed.  "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages..."

 

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say that since more than just bravery is required, it would probably take "the ultimate sacrifice" (giving your life to save others) to bind you (but that's pure speculation).  I think we can be sure a nifty spear, a hat, and a ready grin aren't enough.

 

Birgitte for example, everyone remember her features, but what so special about a golden braid? Nothing is the answer, but everything added together becomes Birgette.

 

If you take away her braid, you still have Birgitte.  It is the person that makes the hero.  Birgitte couldn't stop being a hero and that's what ended up getting her ripped out of TAR, not the fact that she has golden hair in a braid, not the fact that she has a silver bow, and not the fact that she wears baggy pants.

[moroten]

Well, given that Hawkwing singles Rand out, but doesn't mention the others, that seems likely.

 

Indeed, he refers to Mat as Trumpeter and Perrin as Bannerman.

 

When Mat asks, "Is this...is this all of you?" The reply is:

 

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn."  Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.  "Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.  "Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed.  "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages..."

 

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say that since more than just bravery is required, it would probably take "the ultimate sacrifice" (giving your life to save others) to bind you (but that's pure speculation).  I think we can be sure a nifty spear, a hat, and a ready grin aren't enough.

 

Birgitte for example, everyone remember her features, but what so special about a golden braid? Nothing is the answer, but everything added together becomes Birgette.

 

If you take away her braid, you still have Birgitte.  It is the person that makes the hero.  Birgitte couldn't stop being a hero and that's what ended up getting her ripped out of TAR, not the fact that she has golden hair in a braid, not the fact that she has a silver bow, and not the fact that she wears baggy pants.

 

Well ofc you would still have Birgitte, just as you would still have Mat if you took away the his spear. I just added this as a curious side note(NOT as a winning argument), the heroes that we have had described to us has all something unique about their looks that people remember, but that doesnt affect any of their skills or personality. Im just pointing out that Mat have these stuff aswell, but ofc the wheel wont go "oh gee, that is a lovely looking hat you have there, how about I tie you to the wheel for further modelling?". If Mat gets boung its because of his abilities, I agree. But like I said, I just compared him having cool features and all the rest of the heroes we know had aswell.

 

About the thing is requires more than bravery to get tied to the wheel isn't only the ultimate sacrifice. We dont know yet what might happen in the tower of ghenjei, but Mat will give up half the light of the world, which could possibly be the eye since the finns can see through his eye/s. Now that one hell of a sacrifice.

Mat is also a part of the comming new age, his and aludras "dragons" will change alot on the battlefield, might even diminish the advantage of having channelers on the enemy side and so forth.

[Mr Ares]

On wotmania this event led to someone making a pretty good theory that Perrin might have been Artur Hawkwing.

We know Perrin wasn't Hawkwing, as Hawkwing shows up at Falme.

Funny enough if this were true, this would make Perrin techinally Berelain's Great, Great, Great, Great, granduncle.

No, it wouldn't. Berelain claims descent through one of Hawkwing's grandchildren. So she is his nth great granddaughter.

 

But blowing the horn alone and being Ta'veern, I would think would be enough to bind him to the wheel.

I don't. I think both those things, even together, are far more common than people being bound to the Horn.

 

You are right, a scarf and a hat has nothing unique about it...now add these 2 together and the spear and also the pov(dont remember who) that said it was easy to pick out Mat since he had his strange spear and hat, this together makes an unique appereance that is Mat. Birgitte for example, everyone remember her features, but what so special about a golden braid? Nothing is the answer, but everything added together becomes Birgette.

And does she look the same in every life? What are Rand's distinguishing features, and Lews Therin's? So all you have is that Mat has some distinctive accessories. I'm sure the same is true of any number of people.

 

This concerns the same of the other argument that you chose to pick apart. Yes there are lot of tacticians out there and people burdened by allways doing the right thing...now listen to this, its Mat's combination of everything to makes him special.

And that combination is probably a lot more common than you believe it to be, even if not ten a penny.

 

And about Mat getting tied to the wheel, he wont be reborn with Mats personality

So it would be cool if someone with Mat's skill set but a completely different personality became a Hero? So why do you want Mat to be that person?

Rand aint the mirror of Lews Therin.

No, but the similarities have been commented on.

 

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say that since more than just bravery is required, it would probably take "the ultimate sacrifice" (giving your life to save others) to bind you (but that's pure speculation).

Doubtful. It is far too common, there would be far more Heroes than there actually are if this was the case.

 

I just added this as a curious side note(NOT as a winning argument), the heroes that we have had described to us has all something unique about their looks that people remember

In Hawkwing's case this is...?

[moroten]

On wotmania this event led to someone making a pretty good theory that Perrin might have been Artur Hawkwing.

We know Perrin wasn't Hawkwing, as Hawkwing shows up at Falme.

Funny enough if this were true, this would make Perrin techinally Berelain's Great, Great, Great, Great, granduncle.

No, it wouldn't. Berelain claims descent through one of Hawkwing's grandchildren. So she is his nth great granddaughter.

 

But blowing the horn alone and being Ta'veern, I would think would be enough to bind him to the wheel.

I don't. I think both those things, even together, are far more common than people being bound to the Horn.

 

You are right, a scarf and a hat has nothing unique about it...now add these 2 together and the spear and also the pov(dont remember who) that said it was easy to pick out Mat since he had his strange spear and hat, this together makes an unique appereance that is Mat. Birgitte for example, everyone remember her features, but what so special about a golden braid? Nothing is the answer, but everything added together becomes Birgette.

And does she look the same in every life? What are Rand's distinguishing features, and Lews Therin's? So all you have is that Mat has some distinctive accessories. I'm sure the same is true of any number of people.

 

This concerns the same of the other argument that you chose to pick apart. Yes there are lot of tacticians out there and people burdened by allways doing the right thing...now listen to this, its Mat's combination of everything to makes him special.

And that combination is probably a lot more common than you believe it to be, even if not ten a penny.

 

And about Mat getting tied to the wheel, he wont be reborn with Mats personality

So it would be cool if someone with Mat's skill set but a completely different personality became a Hero? So why do you want Mat to be that person?

Rand aint the mirror of Lews Therin.

No, but the similarities have been commented on.

 

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say that since more than just bravery is required, it would probably take "the ultimate sacrifice" (giving your life to save others) to bind you (but that's pure speculation).

Doubtful. It is far too common, there would be far more Heroes than there actually are if this was the case.

 

I just added this as a curious side note(NOT as a winning argument), the heroes that we have had described to us has all something unique about their looks that people remember

In Hawkwing's case this is...?

 

No I doubt that Birgitte looks the same in every life. But its the first life that matters anyway since that is the life that will make up the stories and describe Mats features. And yet again, let me clarify, Im not using the way he looks as a solid argument for him to get bonded, just the similairities so far.

 

Name me a general that has Mats personality and skill and that has devoted it to the service of the light?

 

Because the wheel will make him a hero. Sure he wont be Mat, but he would most likely be another likebale character.

 

I dont remember much of Hawkings descriptions apart from his extremely stern gaze.

[Shard]

Mat and Perrin may not be Heroe's of the Horn but they seem to be tied to the wheel or spun out for a specific purpose. There not just randomly created, Rand needs Mat as the Battle Lord and Perrin as a Wolf King. It seems the entire WoT world is based on reincarnation and that everyone is reincarnated.

[The Doctor]

Lan should be a hero of the horn because he is amazingly awesome.

[Mr Ares]

No I doubt that Birgitte looks the same in every life. But its the first life that matters anyway since that is the life that will make up the stories and describe Mats features.

Except that those features and those stories will be forgotten, and we will have someone else woven out without Mat's accessories.

 

Name me a general that has Mats personality and skill and that has devoted it to the service of the light?

Mat's personality will change, according to you, between lives, and thus cannot be used as an argument in favour. And there are another five Great Captains on this side of the Aryth in recent times, counting all of history and all the world? Why would the Pattern need a Mat? That is the issue. The Pattern makes Heroes of those it needs, so why does it need Mat?

 

I dont remember much of Hawkings descriptions apart from his extremely stern gaze.

Further undermines your point.

 

Mat and Perrin may not be Heroe's of the Horn but they seem to be tied to the wheel or spun out for a specific purpose.

No, they don't, and if they were they would be Heroes.

[Titan Orion]

Mat and Perrin may not be Heroe's of the Horn but they seem to be tied to the wheel or spun out for a specific purpose

 

Mat and Perrin arent as significant as Rand, their past lives arent important in any way. They became Ta'veren when Rand did, because Rand did

[Lanthirrhos]

LOL Moroten is right, and Mr. Ares... you're picking at litterally nothing and have no case whatsoever for your viewpoints. The pattern doesn't need Artur. The Pattern doesn't need Birgitte. And people haven't forgotten Birgitte's golden braid either... otherwise, we wouldn't know of it. So there goes another point. Also, Artur was the second strongest Ta'veren after Rand in recorded History. Mat and Perrin aren't that far behind, although no comparison is made between Hawkwing and them--except that they are very nearly as important as Rand, who is greater than Artur. Is that "uncommon" enough for you? Nope? I figured not... but I could care less ;D

 

And does she look the same in every life? What are Rand's distinguishing features, and Lews Therin's? So all you have is that Mat has some distinctive accessories. I'm sure the same is true of any number of people.

 

His point Ares, is that Mat looks the part of a hero. He has done great deeds, survived things he shouldn't have--Mat is shaping to be a Hero all-round, bound to the Pattern or not. But it's a lot more likely than not once you get off the thron to think about it. --That is, unless there wont be a need for further pattern-bound heroes after the Last Battle.

 

Rand aint the mirror of Lews Therin.

No, but the similarities have been commented on.

 

Contradict yourself much?

 

And does she look the same in every life? What are Rand's distinguishing features, and Lews Therin's? So all you have is that Mat has some distinctive accessories. I'm sure the same is true of any number of people.

 

That was you after all... maybe I'm just not following the silly 'logic'.

 

I dont remember much of Hawkings descriptions apart from his extremely stern gaze.

Further undermines your point.

 

Not really. Mor never said that all heroes were remembered for the same things (ie appearance in this case). That was your imaginary qualification that you "argued against" even though he never said it.

 

I've never seen a more BSed argument in all my days but from one other person ;D