Rand al'Sue. (Spoilers from book 3 up to 11)

[anthony draco]

:-[

 

Forgive the rant, but I REALLY have to get it out after bearing it for 8 books. seriously, at first, I did like him. But after 4 or 5 books, he has become exactly that. I believe I have a good reason too. Reasons actually:

 

Aviendha, Elayne, Min and Lanfear. Enough said... especially Elayne and Min, who does it at first sight, and for no apparent reason rather than just the sake of it. Even Siuan Sanche said he was fairly handsome. OMG.

He mixes the word 'weak' with 'horny', such as when he thinks of himself 'he's too weak to send her away.' ...so he keeps all 3. OMG. Three! I can see some of the author's personal desire at work here. Is this supposed to be cool!?

Lews Therin, who was actually him, was the most acclaimed Aes Sedai in his time, not to mention being the First of the Servant.

Lews Therin, who was actually him, beated Demandred in every game.

Lews Therin, who was actually him, beated Sammael.

Lews Therin, who was actually him, was the most powerful male Aes Sedai at that time, and of course, Rand is the most powerful male channeller too.

Angry, rude and get away with it. At least, until a certain someone comes.

Stupid enough to leave someone to do the bargain for him and leave in the middle of it, despite knowing the effects of his presence. Not to mention leaving to get into another trouble.

Stupid enough to go one-man and ends up getting some certain wound. (What comes of the result is irrelevant, and just fortunate.)

Unable to hurt women even in the most critical circumstance, especially even in the middle of getting killed. This is stupidity, incompetency, sexism, prentense and fabricated-coolness rolled in one.

Being a true noble in secret, which... is severely cliche.

 

With these too many dramatized good things, he's an al'Sue. Far from balanced, unlike Mat who runs, is a coward sometimes, lies, fails at women quite often, doesn't pretend to like duties or what he doesn't. Or unlike Perrin, who is actually a real man, in a proper way, and no pretense. Anyone agree?

[Mr Ares]

Anyone agree?

No. Not if they have any sense.

 

Unable to hurt women even in the most critical circumstance, especially even in the middle of getting killed.

A good reason why he is not what you suggest.

Lews Therin, who was actually him, was the most powerful male Aes Sedai at that time, and of course, Rand is the most powerful male channeller too.

Equal to Ishamael. Also, many people are more knowledgeable channelers than him for substantial parts of the series. Even now, there are a few who probably have a greater knowledge.

Angry, rude and get away with it. At least, until a certain someone comes.

I don't see why you have to drag me into this.

Being a true noble in secret, which... is severely cliche.

And also utterly irrelevant - none of his success is down to descent from Andor's daughter heir. Hell, Andor is a country which is not in his pocket and hasn't given him some sort of title (King of Illian, High Lord of Tear, ruler of Cairhien, car'a'carn, etc.).

Stupid enough to leave someone to do the bargain for him and leave in the middle of it, despite knowing the effects of his presence. Not to mention leaving to get into another trouble.

Another good reason why he isn't a Sue character. He does something stupid, and gets a worse deal for his trouble.

[anthony draco]

Ah, what you said might be true. But I didn't drag you into this. You either reply or you don't. It's a rant, and no body force you to post. You're responsible for your action, which I didn't and couldn't have made you do. Disagreeing is fine with me, but I definitely didn't drag you here.

[Mr Ares]

You didn't get the joke. You'll learn.

[anthony draco]

Angry? No.

 

You don't get what rant means. You'll learn.

[Barmacral]

Oh, I'm sure Mr. Ares is very very aware of what rant means, you still didn't get the joke though, stop bashing him until you do.

[anthony draco]

I just didn't laugh about that. It didn't mean I didn't get it.

 

And he did tell me to stop.

 

Edit: (I actually wanted to modify the previous post but I accidentally click delete and answer yes too fast.)

Edit: I said 'You can't stop me either' in that post.

[Sirayn]

I view Rand as similar to Jaenelle in the Black Jewels trilogy. Both are incredibly powerful, special, smart, good-looking, charismatic and heroic. Both are the prophesied messiah god(dess) of wondrous perfection. Both solve every problem, win every fight, and have lines of madly infatuated, good-looking people of the appropriate sex(es) queueing up for their attention. They're classic Sues. In both cases, I still enjoyed the characters and the series to varying degrees.

[anthony draco]

I view Rand as similar to Jaenelle in the Black Jewels trilogy. Both are incredibly powerful, special, smart, good-looking, charismatic and heroic. Both are the prophesied messiah god(dess) of wondrous perfection. Both solve every problem, win every fight, and have lines of madly infatuated, good-looking people of the appropriate sex(es) queueing up for their attention. They're classic Sues. In both cases, I still enjoyed the characters and the series to varying degrees.

 

Oh, god. Thank him for sending you here. This is the type of the post I wish for a reply. (No sarcasm here, honest.) Well, I do enjoy the book too. I just dislike how far RJ give him those sexism things.

 

Did I mention Berelain once wanted him too? He can also play some a music instrument and draw. Phaw! Cliche.

 

(For anyone else, disagreement welcomed. As long as you can agree to disagree.)

[Mr Ares]

Did I mention Berelain once wanted him too?

For political reasons. He weas powerful, and she thought she could use that to Mayene's benefit.

 

Both solve every problem, win every fight.

Rand doesn't. Sometimes he loses.

 

You don't get what rant means. You'll learn.

I get it. The joke was: "Angry, rude and get away with it." Some would say that was a good description of me. Hence dragging me into it. Some people are slow learners.

[anthony draco]

I get it. The joke was: "Angry, rude and get away with it." Some would say that was a good description of me. Hence dragging me into it. Some people are slow learners.

Ah, for the rude part, I can see why.

 

And regardless of why Berelain wants him, the fact that she tries only adds up to his 'coolness'.

 

Edit: And we don't know what's going on in side her head. It could be personal desire, or political, or both.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Forgive my igonrance, but what is a Sue character?

[anthony draco]

Mary Sue is a character that its author likes way too much, and more often than not, put himself in it too. Usually, they are given super power, great coolness, great skills, especially fighting, art and sex to accommodate its fabricated coolness. It's a not a well-balanced character, though they can have SOME problems to outweight the coolness.

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

Wait, so your basing this on not being able to kill a woman, "marrying" 3 women, and being all powerful? I don't quite understand. I know LOTS of men that would rather run than hurt a woman, much less kill her. Doesn't make them sexist or anything, just the way we were rasied. And since when has marrying 3 women been such a good thing. I'm not married (yet) but the ol' lady still pisses me off to no end. Going through that 3 times over doesn't sound fun. Also, assuming that he will actually die, at least to the world after TG, he's gotta make up for all that time he'll miss with women, so why not sleep around? I'm pretty sure it sounds like Mat has slept around a lot more than rand. Oh and...RAND LOST HIS HAND! Unless RJ had some handless fantasy, it doesn't amount to anything good on Rand's part. Also who the hell else would you want to save the world? The most powerful man in history reborn, or some homeless dude down the street. That's like if someone tried taking over the U.K. again and they send to Mexico instead of the U.S. or Russia for help. STUPID!

[CUBAREY]

Mary Sue is a character that its author likes way too much, and more often than not, put himself in it too. Usually, they are given super power, great coolness, great skills, especially fighting, art and sex to accommodate its fabricated coolness. It's a not a well-balanced character, though they can have SOME problems to outweight the coolness.

 

Actually if RJ wrote a Mary Sue into WOT (a character that reflects him, his alter ego0 then it would be Thom --the Story Teller. Which gives his relationship with moirraine a whole new dimension (is Moiraine loosely based on Harriet?).

[Shard]

No a Gary-Stu would be Eragon from the "Inheritance" books or Pug and Thomas from Raymond E. Fiest books. Or better yet Edward Cullen from Twilight who is SPARKLY! (btw we need a puke emoiticon)

 

Rand is certainly not perfect, not every female character drops down in awe at him. Even the woman who DO want him still make snarky remarks about him. As for marrying three women it's only sexist if the women have no choice.

[anthony draco]

Wait, so your basing this on not being able to kill a woman, "marrying" 3 women, and being all powerful? I don't quite understand. I know LOTS of men that would rather run than hurt a woman, much less kill her. Doesn't make them sexist or anything, just the way we were rasied. And since when has marrying 3 women been such a good thing. I'm not married (yet) but the ol' lady still pisses me off to no end. Going through that 3 times over doesn't sound fun. Also, assuming that he will actually die, at least to the world after TG, he's gotta make up for all that time he'll miss with women, so why not sleep around? I'm pretty sure it sounds like Mat has slept around a lot more than rand. Oh and...RAND LOST HIS HAND! Unless RJ had some handless fantasy, it doesn't amount to anything good on Rand's part. Also who the hell else would you want to save the world? The most powerful man in history reborn, or some homeless dude down the street. That's like if someone tried taking over the U.K. again and they send to Mexico instead of the U.S. or Russia for help. STUPID!

I'm surprised that despite the phrase of life some people are heading towards, they're incapable of agreeing to disagree without personal attacks.

 

Being powerful isn't a flaw, and Dragon Reborn is supposed to be, yeah. But powerful plus many many more good things is a different thing. RJ can still keep him powerful without damaging his character by just giving him less good things.

 

For running, yes. I like some characters who openly say that too, like Mat or Perrin, but Rand did not run in the scene I mentioned. And running away from getting killed or escape is for when you have a choice to do so. When you cannot run, like with Lanfear, and with many other lives at stake, then it's different.

 

For having three wives, Rand has the luxury that we don't have. It's being fictional. He doesn't have to go through whatever trouble his wives would give, except those that RJ would.

 

For Rand having flaws, such as losing hand, RJ will not be a good author otherwise without being capable of giving his characters such things. So of course, he has flaws. He just has too many good things.

 

Edit: On Thom as RJ alter ego point, that's interesting. I don't have time to respond yet though.

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

When I said "STUPID" I was refering to my horrible invasion analogy. Wasn't trying to attack you. My bad.

[RubberDucky]

Wait, so your basing this on not being able to kill a woman, "marrying" 3 women, and being all powerful? I don't quite understand. I know LOTS of men that would rather run than hurt a woman, much less kill her. Doesn't make them sexist or anything, just the way we were rasied. And since when has marrying 3 women been such a good thing. I'm not married (yet) but the ol' lady still pisses me off to no end. Going through that 3 times over doesn't sound fun. Also, assuming that he will actually die, at least to the world after TG, he's gotta make up for all that time he'll miss with women, so why not sleep around? I'm pretty sure it sounds like Mat has slept around a lot more than rand. Oh and...RAND LOST HIS HAND! Unless RJ had some handless fantasy, it doesn't amount to anything good on Rand's part. Also who the hell else would you want to save the world? The most powerful man in history reborn, or some homeless dude down the street. That's like if someone tried taking over the U.K. again and they send to Mexico instead of the U.S. or Russia for help. STUPID!

I'm surprised that despite the phrase of life some people are heading towards, they're incapable of agreeing to disagree without personal attacks.

 

Being powerful isn't a flaw, and Dragon Reborn is supposed to be, yeah. But powerful plus many many more good things is a different thing. RJ can still keep him powerful without damaging his character by just giving him less good things.

 

For running, yes. I like some characters who openly say that too, like Mat or Perrin, but Rand did not run in the scene I mentioned. And running away from getting killed or escape is for when you have a choice to do so. When you cannot run, like with Lanfear, and with many other lives at stake, then it's different.

 

For having three wives, Rand has the luxury that we don't have. It's being fictional. He doesn't have to go through whatever trouble his wives would give, except those that RJ would.

 

For Rand having flaws, such as losing hand, RJ will not be a good author otherwise without being capable of giving his characters such things. So of course, he has flaws. He just has too many good things.

 

Edit: On Thom as RJ alter ego point, that's interesting. I don't have time to respond yet though.

I think that there is enough of a balance regarding Rand. Try thinking from his perspective. Just think of the stress he has to bear from all the murder attempts, distrust and all that ugly stuff. Hell, the amount of responsibility on his shoulders is not like-able either. Remember him reciting the names of the maidens that have died for him? And Colavere? And Ingtar? There's a lot that eats away at him. Robert Jordan's characters are more 'realistic' than what you describe. Despite all the goodies he has, think of what he has to bear also.

 

I pity the man sometimes. Personally, I feel like if he were given the chance, he would choose not to be tDR.

[csarmi]

I don't understand, what is this "al'Sue" thing supposed to mean? Is it some pun? Who is Mary Sue?

[anthony draco]

When I said "STUPID" I was refering to my horrible invasion analogy. Wasn't trying to attack you. My bad.

My apologies for mistaking it then.

 

And csarmi, I've explained about Mary Sue somewhere above. It's at the top of page 2, the second post. As I personally think Rand is a Mary Sue. I call him Rand al'Sue, instead of al'Thor.

 

Actually if RJ wrote a Mary Sue into WOT (a character that reflects him, his alter ego0 then it would be Thom --the Story Teller. Which gives his relationship with moirraine a whole new dimension (is Moiraine loosely based on Harriet?).

But, IMO, an alter ego doesn't really have to be a real self-reflection. That's why it's an alter ego. Ppl don't like how they truly perceive themselves and so they create another. If you can choose how you look, why not young and with all those powers? Thom could actually be his actual alter ego, because I believe RJ started writing all this during his white hair time, but I personally think it's Rand. Either could be correct though. We'll never know how honest RJ was to himself when he fantasize his alter ego.

[csarmi]

Thanks, that note missed me. Well, either I don't really understand the notion (yes I've read up wiki too), or I have to disagree. Least I'm not convinced yet, any proofs?

You don't have to convince me not to like him tho.

[Sirayn]

Ahahaha. Out of curiosity I ran Rand through the Original Fiction Mary Sue Litmus Test, and even skipping a bunch of questions because I couldn't remember, he scored an 81. (71 points and above is classed as an Irredeemable Sue.) And they don't even have questions like:

 

* "Is the character the Messiah?"

* "Precisely how many women want to marry him?"

* "How many previously forgotten things does he reinvent?"

* "Is he the most powerful (or nearly the most powerful) magic user of all time?"

* "Is he destined to make a heroic self-sacrifice?"

 

Because if they did have those questions, Rand would score even further off the charts. :D

[anthony draco]

Ahahaha. Out of curiosity I ran Rand through the Original Fiction Mary Sue Litmus Test, and even skipping a bunch of questions because I couldn't remember, he scored an 81. (71 points and above is classed as an Irredeemable Sue.) And they don't even have questions like:

 

* "Is the character the Messiah?"

* "Precisely how many women want to marry him?"

* "How many previously forgotten things does he reinvent?"

* "Is he the most powerful (or nearly the most powerful) magic user of all time?"

* "Is he destined to make a heroic self-sacrifice?"

 

Because if they did have those questions, Rand would score even further off the charts. :D

XD

 

Here comes your proof, csarmi. Take the test for Rand, and you'll see I've missed tons more questions.

[TaiDashan]

*wanders into thread due to sheer curiosity*

 

Wow...

 

Glad I stick to the RP side for the most part, its only luckers and RAW that keep me coming back here...

 

*shakes head and wanders back out again*