Recognising the Forsaken

[Guest Winespring Brother]

In book 3 we see a number of appearances by the forsaken. Specifically, Mat and Egwene both meet Lanfear in the Whte Tower. Do you think they ever realise who it is they met? They both see her again when she has her showdown in FoH, but we never see if it clicked that they had met her before.

 

We also see that Perrin watches a meeting between the Forsaken in tel'aran'rhiod. In chapter 4, Shadow's Sleeping, in that place with thousands of Bridges and towers. Two men meet and argue, then Ishamael turns up and makes that huge fire ball. One of the men must be Bel'al, as he is described as having a puffy sleved coat and white hair. I have never been certain though who the other forsaken is. He is described as tall, dark and slender, the silver in his black hair giving him a distinguished look, his dark green coat thickly embroidered with golden leaves. Gold-work covered his belt and poutch, gems sparkeld on his dagger sheath, and golden fringe encircled his boot tops.

Who is this?????

 

Rahvin is tall, dark and distinguised, but not slender. He is described as broad chested. Sammael often wears green and gold, but he is short and blonde. Asmodean has dark hair, but is not overly tall or greying. There are no other male forsaken around at this time. Who do you think it is?

 

 

One other question; in his wolf dream Perrin encounters a foreign lord who has his skin ripped off by a tentacle of shadow. He wears bright yellow coat and breeches, the coat flaring over his hips as the breeches flair over the boots, which are also yellow. He is described as having an odd accent, quick and sharp. Any ideas where this man comes from? The discription does not sound familiar to me.

[Kaznen]

The other forsaken was Rahvin. And I think Mat knows "Selene" was Lanfear.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Mat describes Rahvin as having more than Rand's height, and very nearly Perrin's shoulders. That hardly sounds like slender to me.

[Luckers]

Actually RJ uses the phrase slender quite often on people described with broad shoulders... Galad for instance.

 

Mat and Egwene both saw an altered version of Lanfear... close but not the same. Its possible they never made the connection... or then again its possible they did.

[Kaznen]

No, Egwene saw a, though she didn't know it at the time, former classmate. When Lanfear visited Mat in the Tower she came as Lanfear, calling herself Selene.

[Kadere]

She saw Lanfear posing as one, that former classmate had left the Tower almost two weeks before. Mat meets that same classmate on his way to fight Galad and Gawyn, while Lanfear is posing as her again. She wasn't there, it was Lanfear. When Eg chased after her, she eventually found Lanfear as herself and was turned away.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Its a bit ironic really. Although he may have realised later, Mat has met Ishamael, Lanfear, Rahvin, Asmodean, Semirhage, Belthamel as Arangar, and possibly even Mesaana (who knows?) without even knowing who they were.

 

I've never heard of Galad as being described as broad shouldered. I know the description sounds like Rahvin, but everytime, and I mean everytime, we see him he is described as large. It just doesn't agree with slender. Do you think this is a mistake by RJ, or perhaps it is not the true appearance of one of them. We see in later books when he meets Sevanna that Sammael disguises himself as a tall, dark man.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

It seems I'm answering my own questions, but I am now convinced that the tall, slender man must be Sammael as Lord Brend. Not only does Nieda in the Easing the Badger dream of the place with the bridges, but when Perrin falls asleep in Illian he dreams another man's dreams, a tall, slender man in rich clothes with gold fringe. It must be Sammael.

[Luckers]

I always assumed it was Sammael, though why he would dream himself to look different in front of the other two i dont know... it would seem weak and vain to me... something i dont see sammael doing no matter how much he hated his height.

 

Kaznen, Mat saw Lanfear in her guise as Selene, which we know to be slightly different to her real form... im constantly reminded of that spoof "This is my real form, which is in fact slightly more beautiful then my most-beautiful-woman-in-the-world disguise.". Egwene also encountered Lanfear, whether in her real form, or in her disguise as Selene im unsure... but i suspect Selene because we never see her make the connection later... then again, maybe she did but didn't care enough to make a big deal out of it.

[Cybertrolloc]

Sammael is neither dark nor tall though, and is never described with grey hair that I can recall. Clothes are similar to what we see from Rahvin, I think the dagger is exactly the same and the gray wings in his hair are pretty unique among the Forsaken.

[Luckers]

This was in the dream world which makes any appearence possible... Nevertheless... why Sammael would appear that way is a valid question.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

He would appear like that because that is what he looks like for Lord Brend. Sammael's dreams effect all of Illian, and both Nieda and Billy talk about their dreams of Lord Brend walking on bridges in the air in that place in tel'aran'rhiod where he met Bel'al and Ishamael. Perrin also has his dreams affected in Illian, and describes this tall dark slender man. Which other forsaken is going to be in Illian?????

 

Its pretty obivous he wouldn't use his real appearance in Illian, because he has a livid scar down his face, and he is blonde haired and blue eyed, which the Illianers are not.

[merlinspetrock]

I thought Egwene met Lanfear and she was disguised as that farmers daughter novice from book 1. The one who ran off to the tower after Rand and Mat stayed the night at the farm. I think her name is Elsie Greenwald or something and I am pretty sure she is dead. I could be way off base though. As far as seeing them in Tel, I didnt think that anyone got close enough to make out more than the fact that someone was male or female, due to the clothes they wore. In fact doesnt Briggite or Hopper specifically say to not go close? As far as disguising themselves against each other, they are all compettitive of each other and probably would not want to give the identities away that they are hiding under.

[Luckers]

Else Grinwell... and she did. In fact she chased after her, and then encounter Lanfear, either in her true form or in another disguise... selene.

 

Sammael wouldn't bother appearing as Brend to disguise his presense from those dreaming of him... who would believe a dream? Moreover events in tel'aran'rhiod don't transfer like that.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Ever heard of Method Acting?????

 

 

So if Perrin dreams someone else's dream in Illian, and that someone is a tall, dark, slender man, who is it if not Sammael? Why would Rahvin be sleeping in Illian? I for one wouldn't be surprised if Sammael dreamed himself as Lord Brend, because he has always wanted to be tall. If people dream themselves as they want to be, why wouldn't he dream himself as tall, dark and handsome?

 

Here are some of the lines from when Perrin sleeps in Illian in book 3. "Dreams tumbled through his head....A tall, slender man flashed into them again and again, in richly embroidered coat and boots with gold fringe....These felt strange, as if they were not really his dreams at all"

 

I ask you again, why would Perrin be dreaming Rahvin's dreams if he slept in Illian?

[Cybertrolloc]

Seems clear enough that Perrin saw a Forsaken meetup in TaR. Be'lal seems uncontested, it's who he's talking to that's the problem.

 

Except for the slim part, it's Rahvin. Sammael isn't slim either and shorter for a leading Jordan male. The real question is what they were talking about, since Perrin hears nothing except that they're heatedly talking.

 

Both Sammael and Be'lal seem to be using the old Tear/Illian animosity as a drumbeat to prepare armies. They could be discussing this, and it may become heated since they both are generals. Be'lal and Rahvin could argue about the bait that's planned for Tear (Ny and Eg), since Rahvin wants Elayne for his own purposes.

 

In either case Ishy puts his foot down, but since it's an earlier book (many things retconned in the middle books particularly the power)...I don't think it's ever going to be too clear.

[Luckers]

Well obviously they weren't there all that amicably, concidering it ended in an explosion.

 

Ever heard of Method Acting?????

 

Yes, i have, though i doubt even Stanislavski would extend it to dreaming as well.

 

I dont deny that Sammael was projecting dreams of Lord Brend. Likely on purpose to strengthen his hold on the peoples minds. But that was not this. This was in TAR in a meeting with the other Forsaken. It would reveal much for Sammael to appear that way, and be utterly pointless besides. Sammael would never reveal something that could be percieved as a weakness--and his striving for height would be percieved as such. Also, note, he never, ever appeared that way at ANY of the other meetings with Forsaken.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

I get what you are saying Luckers, and it would seem quite silly to reveal his Lord Brend appearance to the others, but something has just struck me. In this part of the story, we don't actually know what Sammael looks like. Its not until later books that we find out that he is short and blonde. The only time Sammael is actually mentioned in the book is by Moriane when she says he is lord Brend. (how she knew it was Sammael I have no idea!)

 

Anyway, like I said, the people in Illian dream Sammael's dreams, and Perrin does so too. In them he sees a man who matches the description of the man from the bridge encounter earlier in the book. Tall, dark and slender. This must surely be Lord Brend. The reason Jordan has this Lord Brend appearance earlier for the meeting is that if he didn't we would have no idea who the man at the meeting was. If Sammael used his own appearance we would have no other reference at this point to compare it against and say it was him. (it obviously hasn't worked that well otherwise we wouldn;t be having this discussion)

 

I doubt Be'lal would be meeting Rahvin. From the concersation Mat overhears, it seems that those two avoid each other like the plague.

[Inara]

i have read this topic from the top and there is no mention of demandred as the slender dark-haird man on the bridge (that mat saw)

is there a reason why this is so?

he is the fist person i thought of (then rahvin)

[Vo0]

If that is Ishamael.. then it could be Isam/Luc - Slayer ?

 

We know that he doesn't listen to anyone beyond the Dark Lord but in later on books we learn that he takes orders from Moridin..

 

Who is Moridin?

Ishamael :)

[Luckers]

Actually we didn't learn that he was taking orders from Moridin. We learnt that he was taking orders from a mysterious Forsaken who shielded himself from Slayers sight.

 

And it seems unlikely the third was Slayer... for one he wouldn't be meeting Forsaken as equels... he'd be grovelling or some such. Whereas all three displayed equel contempt and warrieness for the others. Secondly when someone made the fireball that destroyed where they were standing, they all jumped away--slayer moves like a person physically in the dream, not a dreamwalker. It's unlikely he would have survived the fireball. Three. Perrin would have recognized him later as either Isam or Luc.

[Vo0]

WH, end of chapter 22:

 

"The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few who could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. His services were always begged except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen.."

 

Does this not suggest he only takes orders from the Dark Lord and just now the Chosen ?

 

Does Perrin know who slayer is ? If he does then i apologise for i didn't know :P

[Luckers]

Does this not suggest he only takes orders from the Dark Lord and just now the Chosen ?

 

And Moridin is the only Chosen now? I'm sorry, but what was your point?

 

And yes, Perrin will recognize slayer in both his incarnations. He met Luc in the real world, and Isam in Tel'aran'rhiod. This was a massive part of his arc in tSR.

[Cybertrolloc]

WH, end of chapter 22:

 

"The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few who could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. His services were always begged except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen.."

 

Does this not suggest he only takes orders from the Dark Lord and just now the Chosen ?

 

Does Perrin know who slayer is ? If he does then i apologise for i didn't know :P

Actually it suggests the opposite: that Slayer's services can be begged by others besides the DO and the Chosen, though it's not likely. There's big questions about the life and times of Slayer though, he was made what 50 years before Eye of the World? What's he been up to before he killed the Gray Men in the Tower?

[Vo0]

I suppose he's just been wandering in the blight lol :P

 

And my point wasn't that Moridin is the only Forsaken :S my point was that it said Slayer takes orders or commands or even requests by few save the chosen, when it says

 

"Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few who could channel, or would have dared trying to command him."

 

that's saying that none of the men among the few who knew how to reach him could channel and none would have dared try to command him. So who DOES know how to reach him apart from the Chosen?

 

In fact never mind i'm too confused lol haha