Perrin the General

[Ziggdiezan]

I have seen people talking about how Mat and Perrin are to be the lights main generals. Where are you getting this. It will be like Mat, Great Captains/Seachan Main Genrals (Furyke), Aiel Cheifs. Then maby Perrin will command a whole 2000 people, he is not a general but will be a figurehead. I have a quick question Mat always says that as soon as a general picks up a sword he is as good as a common soilder or something, but he is always on front line with his men killing shit, do you think in the Last Battle Mat and Perrin will be on the front lines or sorta staying with the casters at the back.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

Man i've been meaning to post something about this. Perrin is NOT a general. Really, like mat has all of his old memories and stuff and rand has like all of the aiel and bashere. Perrin doesn't know how to command troops or anything. I would really rather have tam command all of his two rivers bowmen and that's it. i don't quite know how he got all of his military knowledge. especially in book 4. he was just some kid coming back from who knows where to the two rivers.

[Vambram]

Sooooo, I guess the fact that Perrin made alliances with and got the respect of a Seanchan general; the fact that Perrin led and organized the successful defense of the Two Rivers against the Trollocs; and the fact that Perrin led as their General the armies that finally once and for all defeated the friggin' Shaido Aiel .. I guess all those facts are not good enough to say that Perrin is a great General?

Good grief. you two are nuts, IMO. sheesh.

[Kaznen]

Perrin is a great leader, excellent soldier, and all around "man of of action" but he isn't a great general.  He's not bad, he knows that you don't just charge the calvary every time, but he is a far cry from a great field commander.  He can plot out the opening moves but once "the first arrow leaves the bow" he just grabs on and tries to stay on the ride.  Plus he's a berserker (not really officer material).

 

I always thought that if Rand set up an offical Dragonsworn chain of command Perrin would be the Chanclor(?) of the Dragonsworn, taking care of of non-battle relating issues in preperation of the last battle like setting up supply depots, organizing supply chains, overseeing the equiping of troops, ect. while Mat is the Marshall General of the Dragonsworn and would command the battle relating issues in prep for TG.

[Muad Cheade]

I say this with all due respect, but what are y'all smoking? Haha. Perrin's a pretty good general. He might not have the hundreds of years of military history that Mat has, but that doesn't make him any less of a commander.

 

In the Battle of Malden, he fought a force that was larger than all the soldiers Mat has fought against. His plan was pretty genius. I don't see how he doesn't get that much credit. And as Havien Nurelle pointed out, his Two Rivers Campaign was also pretty brilliant campaign.

 

Obligatory, I have no I idea where you get the thought that Perrin doesn't know how to command troops. The Two Rivers Campaign, Dumai's Well, and Malden show he is born for leadership. He's ta'avern. The Pattern forces him into positions of leadership.

 

Mat was quoting Madoc Comadrin when he says a general who joins he fighting has put aside his baton and has become a common soldier." However, that doesn't mean one is a bad commander if you fight on the frontlines. Some of history's greatest generals and tacticians did that: Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Hannibal for example. In addition, the times Perrin has fought on the frontlines were necessary. In the Two Rivers Campaign, his presence was a huge morale boost for the people, at Dumai's Well everyone fought because they had to reach Rand, and at the battle of Malden, he wanted to reach Faile first.

 

I find it amazing that all of the ta'avern in a few short years have become so experienced and a some of the best military leaders in Randland. Mat obviously is due to his memories, Perrin is from my above comments, and Rand has been learning from Lan, Bashere and the Aiel chiefs (His battles against the Seanchan were pretty amazing tactically.)

 

Tarmon Gai'don is going to be basically the Trolloc Wars all over again so there won't be just one huge battle and there will be multiple Shadowspawn armies as there was in said Trolloc Wars. The Light is in desperate need of good leaders and generals and Mat and Perrin help fill those roles perfectly.

 

P.S. Just because any general is not one of the Five Great Captains or Mat, doesn't mean the aren't good. It's like saying Alexander and Caesar were the greatest, but Cyrus the Great wasn't because he's not "in the top five."

 

For example, Lord Baldhere is the commander of the armies of Kandor. Robert Jordan says this of him: "He might not be counted among the great captains, but he knows when or when not to fight, as well as how to win. His soldiers would follow him everywhere." The same is of Perrin. Just because he is not in one of the Best Five Captains doesn't mean he's not good (Technically, Mat isn't a "Great Captain" either).

[Vambram]

I am pretty sure, Kaznen, that the Shaido Aiel would disagree with that assessment you have made concerning Perrin.

[AcuWill]

Yeah, but it took Perrin what, like 5 freaking books to get his battle done?

 

Epic fail with regard to being a good general imo.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

It's not JUST that i don't consider him a good general, it's that i have no idea where his knowledge of being a general came from. Rand has had training and mat's got his memories, how'd perrin get his knowledge? to me he's just some guy who the pattern has picked out to be important. also cyrus the great? wasn't he the guy who they modeled the term pyhrric victory after? or i could just be totally wrong on that one and it's some total other guy.

[Vambram]

Yeah, but it took Perrin what, like 5 freaking books to get his battle done?

 

Epic fail with regard to being a good general imo.

 

Well, then, I guess since RJ wrote it that way, causing the destruction of the Shaido Aiel to take five books to complete, you believe that RJ thinks that Perrin is an "Epic fail with regard to being a good general."

[AcuWill]

Yeah, but it took Perrin what, like 5 freaking books to get his battle done?

 

Epic fail with regard to being a good general imo.

 

Well, then, I guess since RJ wrote it that way, causing the destruction of the Shaido Aiel to take five books to complete, you believe that RJ thinks that Perrin is an "Epic fail with regard to being a good general."

First of all you need to get your sarcasm meter looked at.  It's definitely broken.

 

Second, don't be putting words in my mouth to validate your arguement as to what I might think Robert Jordan might have thought about Perrin even though I never mentioned Robert Jordan in my post but I might have thought about Robert Jordan while writing my post so you might have made a valid point if your assumption and creation of my thoughts might have been correct. 

 

Maybe.

[Kaznen]

I am pretty sure, Kaznen, that the Shaido Aiel would disagree with that assessment you have made concerning Perrin.

I'm not doupting that he did a good job preparing for the battle.  But once the battle staring he went rushing into the city and almost got himself killed several times because he was being stupid.

 

Remember Perrin's side lost nearly 20,000 soldiers but because they were the Prophet's people no one counts them.  And he the Shaido did something fancy like flank Perrin's people they would have been slaughtered or they would have ran because the commander of the Gheledans, TR folk, good Aiel, and Mayeners was not there.  Each of the groups would have been looking out for themselves and not working together that the Shaido would have torn them apart.

[Muad Cheade]

Yeah, but it took Perrin what, like 5 freaking books to get his battle done?

 

Epic fail with regard to being a good general imo.

 

It was technically three but you don't expect him to defeat a 100,000 Shaido in one book. First, he had to send scouts out to actually locate them, locate food for his people, then he had to devise a plan and ally with the Seanchan. Can't really do that in two books either.

 

It's not JUST that i don't consider him a good general, it's that i have no idea where his knowledge of being a general came from. Rand has had training and mat's got his memories, how'd perrin get his knowledge? to me he's just some guy who the pattern has picked out to be important. also cyrus the great? wasn't he the guy who they modeled the term pyhrric victory after? or i could just be totally wrong on that one and it's some total other guy.

 

No...Cyrus the Great conquered most of Southwest Asia and much of Central Asia, from Egypt and the Hellespont in the west to the Indus River in the east. Pyrrhus of Epirus is where we get "pyrrhic victory" from (Hence the similarity of the nouns).

 

I am pretty sure, Kaznen, that the Shaido Aiel would disagree with that assessment you have made concerning Perrin.

I'm not doupting that he did a good job preparing for the battle.  But once the battle staring he went rushing into the city and almost got himself killed several times because he was being stupid.

 

Remember Perrin's side lost nearly 20,000 soldiers but because they were the Prophet's people no one counts them.  And he the Shaido did something fancy like flank Perrin's people they would have been slaughtered or they would have ran because the commander of the Gheledans, TR folk, good Aiel, and Mayeners was not there.  Each of the groups would have been looking out for themselves and not working together that the Shaido would have torn them apart.

As for Kaznen, Perrin was counting on Masema's forces being decimated. He was trying to kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart of a move. The Shaido did try to flank Perrin's main forces. Part of his plan was to have the Seanchan and the damane on both sides of their flank. Once again, a pretty smart move. And it was Perrin's plan to head for the gates also. Tam was given complete control over all of Perrin's main forces during the party which allowed him to lead the sortie into Malden. Did you not read KoD or are you just biased against Perrin? Plus, anyone else would be rushing for the gates too. I would. Mat and Rand would definitely do the same if Tuon or Aviendha, Min and Elayne were there.

[Vambram]

Perrin was counting on Masema's forces being decimated. He was trying to kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart of a move. The Shaido did try to flank Perrin's main forces. Part of his plan was to have the Seanchan and the damane on both sides of their flank. Once again, a pretty smart move. And it was Perrin's plan to head for the gates also. Tam was given complete control over all of Perrin's main forces during the party which allowed him to lead the sortie into Malden. Did you not read KoD or are you just biased against Perrin? Anyone else would be rushing for the gates too. I would. Mat and Rand would definitely do the same if Tuon or Aviendha, Min and Elayne were there.

 

QFT :)

[erickm001]

Perrin was counting on Masema's forces being decimated. He was trying to kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart of a move. The Shaido did try to flank Perrin's main forces. Part of his plan was to have the Seanchan and the damane on both sides of their flank. Once again, a pretty smart move. And it was Perrin's plan to head for the gates also. Tam was given complete control over all of Perrin's main forces during the party which allowed him to lead the sortie into Malden. Did you not read KoD or are you just biased against Perrin? Anyone else would be rushing for the gates too. I would. Mat and Rand would definitely do the same if Tuon or Aviendha, Min and Elayne were there.

 

QFT :)

Yes, double QFT. Very well stated.

[Kaznen]

Perrin's forces were the flank.  It was Team Perrin, Seanchan forming the center, then Prophet's people.  Perrin's plan was to get the Shaido to first attack him but the combination of longbow fire and channeling would drive the Shaido to the Seanchan, who, with their handful of da'mane and their archers and crossbowmen would drive the Saido further on into the Prophet's people.

 

But if the Saido went west instead of eastafter they fell back from Perrin's archers then Team Perrin would have been screwed because nobody except about 10 maidens were watching the flank.  And without Perrin the Gheladans would have charged the gate to get to their queen, leaving the archers exposed and Beralin would have wanted to withdraw and regroup while Tam and Co. were fighting the Saido hand to hand for their lives.  And in the fight the outnumbered TR people would be cut to pieces.

 

If Perrin hung back and watched what the Shaido were doing he would be able to redeploy soldiers in the Aiel got fancy.  Perrin does a fine job planning a battle but he doesn't have contingicies in mind for if the other side does something fancy and he doesn't plan five moves ahead like Mat, Rand, and the five greats.

 

He won at TR because archers from Watch Hill and Devon Ride attacked the Trollocs from behind while they were focused on Emonds Field, he got lucky because he didn't plan on them.

 

At the Wells most of his army was saved (he would have made it out with Rand but most of the others would have been killed) by the timely arrival of the Asha'man, which was unexpected.

[Muad Cheade]

You're wrong about the Battle of Malden. The battle went perfectly (except for Aram but that's a different matter). Less than 100 dead. The Seanchan were on the flanks. When the Shadio were getting hit by the archers they tried to flank Perrin's main force. The Seanchan were hidden in the trees so when the Shaido tried their three pronged attack, their outside flanks were pulverized. The archers and the lancers were on the crest facing the town. While the Seanchan handled the flanks, Perrin's main force advanced forward.

 

If you remembered the Prologue, Perrin has firm control over his forces. He even shut up Arganda (The Ghealdenin commander) with a raised hand. My eyebrows climbed out of my head when I read that. When Perrin said Tam was his First Captain, Arganda had no choice but to follow his orders. Tam is a good soldier so Perrin and Aram were free to go to Malden. If Perrin haad said Arganda and Tam were equals, then yes, he probably would've ordered a charge.

 

"The Shaido also sent a flanking force to try and surround Perrin's troops. Using sustained missile fire from their bowmen, Perrin's forces inflicted terrible damage upon the Shaido, whilst his channellers were able to affect even more destruction on the Shaido ranks. The Seanchan then took the Shaido flanking force in the rear and side, and enveloped their forces, destroying some of them and forcing them to surrender. Perrin led a personal sortie into Malden and was able to rescue his wife and several other prisoners."

      Taken from:http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Malden

 

At the Battle of Emond's Field, the Whitecloaks were also supposed to assist in the battle but they didn't. Also, Perrin didn't expect to survive the battle. He was heavily outnumbered with what he thought was no chance of reinforcements. He and his force were simply to give the other Two Rivers folks the time to escape and get help from "Morgase." It was the best he could do in the situation. And don't discount the "luck." Mat has often found himself "lucky." Especially, during the Second Battle of Cairhien when multiple times friendly Aiel attacked Shaido the "Band" was fighting. It's what Mandevwin said "battle luck."

 

At Dumai's Well, the plan was to reach Rand so that he could make a gateway and take the survivors out of there by Gateway. It's a pretty good plan but the Shaido kinda made it a little harder. No way anyone could know the Shaido were there. It seems like Mat, he's pretty lucky in battle. Sevanna sent all of the Shaido spears into attack even when some of the chiefs wanted reserves. If the Shaido had reserves, they would've seen Perrin's forces. The arrival of the Asha'man was unexpected but appreciated.

[Kaznen]

I never said Perrin was a bad general, in fact I did say he isn't a bad general a few posts earlier.  I'm just sainghe isn't all that great as a field commander.

 

At Dumai's Wells if the Asha'man didn't show up there would have been a lot less survivors.

 

And at Malden he didn't lead a sortie into the city, he went by himself, spur of the moment, and Aram followed.

 

So what he did at Malden was desert his men, Arganda wouldn't stick to the plan if things got hot and Perrin wasn't there to watch him.  He didn't know Tam had the same type of resume as him (commoner in the elite guard rising through the ranks, fought at the Blood Snow).

 

But what Perrin did by deserting his men (granted the deserting genral runs away from the battle) was the great sin his father in law says that a general can commit.  Besides, what if Tam, who was commanding out front, was one of those 200 casaulties and things got hot.

 

But he is great at organizing things that is why I think he would be in charge of logistics if Rand formalized the DS rankings.

[Muad Cheade]

I'm not understanding what your definition is of general. A field commander is usually a general.

 

The plan at Dumai's Well wasn't to keep the majority of Perrin's forces alive. The plan was to reach Rand so he could make a gateways and take the survivors out. Rescuing Rand was the priority.

 

No...The plan at Malden was that Faile and the others were supposed to go to the aqueduct and Perrin would enter Malden and find them there. Galina's betrayal changed that. In Chapter 26, he tells Ban he'd be there "as soon as he can."

 

So Perrin didn't desert his men. The commanders knew the plan. Actually, once the Seanchan attacked the Shaido and Perrin led the way to Malden, Arganda leading a charge wouldn't have changed much. Perrin was in command during the crucial part of the battle.

 

Perrin didn't desert. He was following the plan. A brilliant plan at that. Tam was commanding at the front but he was out of danger. The Shaido were falling back and he archers weren't engaging in melee so they weren't close to danger. As Tylee said, "they never really managed to get close to us."

[AcuWill]

Yeah, but it took Perrin what, like 5 freaking books to get his battle done?

 

Epic fail with regard to being a good general imo.

 

It was technically three but you don't expect him to defeat a 100,000 Shaido in one book. First, he had to send scouts out to actually locate them, locate food for his people, then he had to devise a plan and ally with the Seanchan. Can't really do that in two books either.

I guess I will ahve to spell this out.  I was being f-a-c-e-t-i-o-u-s.

 

Merriam-Webster

2 : meant to be humorous or funny : not serious

[Builder]

Ok, so some of the posts were tl;dr, but I can safely assume that Perrin will be more of a moral boost to both soldiers and citizens, and he is a decent general. Sure, not one of the five, but still very good.

[Builder]

So what is the difference between a field tactician and a general? I can come up with a few but I'm not sure if I'm getting the whole picture.

[Perrin 187]

So what is the difference between a field tactician and a general? I can come up with a few but I'm not sure if I'm getting the whole picture.

Generals come up with the objective and strategy of the battle abd tactics that should be used. A field commander leads the soldiers as the battle progresses by issuing order to the officers in the feild, while typically not fighting himself. Most generals in history are both. Thats how I see it at least. 

[Builder]

Wait, I thought the objectives are given by the political leader. For example Obama says that he wants more troops in Afghanistan, and the generals or whoever is in command must organize how to transport them to places in Afghanistan and distribute them in such a way so they can be used efficiently.

[RedEagle]

do you think in the Last Battle Mat and Perrin will be on the front lines or sorta staying with the casters at the back.

 

I am not sure which book it is in, but doesn't Egwane have a dream about Perrin leading wolves as far as eye can see? If I am remembering this correctly do you think that could be a vision of the Last Battle?

[Caedn of the Taardad]

do you think in the Last Battle Mat and Perrin will be on the front lines or sorta staying with the casters at the back.

 

I am not sure which book it is in, but doesn't Egwane have a dream about Perrin leading wolves as far as eye can see? If I am remembering this correctly do you think that could be a vision of the Last Battle?

 

I've always assumed that meant he would lead wolves in the last battle, but that doesn't exactly mean he'll be up front with them, thoguh his track record does suggest he may...