Inside the tower of Ghanji

[RobertAlexWillis]

The woman who fulfills it can be different from who Min thinks/believes regardless of there being a failed viewing of the woman or not.

 

Not if she knows who it is!  If she knows the meaning of a vision, then she is always right.  And if she thinks that the woman is "dead and gone", then she must know who the woman is.

 

To repeat: the vision says that Rand will almost certainly fail without this woman.  Min must know the identity of the woman as part of her vision, or she would not be able to conclude that the woman is "dead and gone".

 

Again, the Viewing of Moiraine had to been from a time when Min & Moiraine were together.

 

No it doesn't.  Min never said it was a viewing she saw around Moiraine.  The context makes it perfectly clear that it is a viewing about Moiraine that she sees around Rand.  Moiraine's presence is not necessary, nor would it make sense.

[mb]

The woman who fulfills it can be different from who Min thinks/believes regardless of there being a failed viewing of the woman or not.

 

Not if she knows who it is!  If she knows the meaning of a vision, then she is always right.  And if she thinks that the woman is "dead and gone", then she must know who the woman is.

 

To repeat: the vision says that Rand will almost certainly fail without this woman.  Min must know the identity of the woman as part of her vision, or she would not be able to conclude that the woman is "dead and gone".

 

Min must know the identity?  If Min knew the identity, I think that the identity would have been declared.

There have been a number of viewings where an unknown identity were involved.  This viewing seems not much different.

 

[naxxan]

I feel it needs to be said that Min does have veiwings where she knows something specific but not the whole picture.  I'm refering to the birds around Perrin being female and the dark hues speaking of violence around the Aes Sedai.  She also saw the hues of rape around Hanlon(?) I think it was.  What I'm getting at is that Min might have seen an image of Rand failing without someone she knew through the viewing "was dead and gone" but felt that since she had only had one veiwing that was wrong (Moiraine) there was no reason to bother him with it and just let it play out.  That being said I can't really get behind the idea too strongly. I think it would have been worded differently if that were the case.  Unless of course it was a red herring.  I don't want to call anybody down or such, I just wanted to say that if you step over here and look at the picture, you might see a sailboat.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Min must know the identity?  If Min knew the identity, I think that the identity would have been declared.

 

It is, when she thinks of Moiraine as her failed vision.

 

And if Min doesn't know the woman's identity, then why is she sure that the woman is dead and gone?

 

There have been a number of viewings where an unknown identity were involved.  This viewing seems not much different.

 

Except that when the identity was unknown in previous visions, Min wasn't sure that the person she saw was "dead and gone".

 

What I'm getting at is that Min might have seen an image of Rand failing without someone she knew through the viewing "was dead and gone"

 

I can follow that idea, and it even makes sense on its own, but not in the context of the chapter in which we see it.

 

All that said, no one is budging here, so I guess we'll see, won't we?

[naxxan]

I reread the chapter with Min's povs and in all fairness the comments about the dead and gone woman and Moiraine's viewing not coming true are quite far apart in the story.  Min doesn't even think of Moiraine until seeing Caraline.  She doesn't jump directly to thinking "Rand has a chance now..." Min just seems to reflect on how Moiraine's viewing could never come true.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Min just seems to reflect on how Moiraine's viewing could never come true.

 

She reflects on how Moiraine is the only viewing that she thinks will never come true.  Important word there.

 

And, two pages apart?  Within the same chapter and PoV?  Not very far apart in the story at all.

 

Remember, Jordan is still, at this point, trying not to be obvious about the fact that Moiraine is alive.  He doesn't really confirm that, within the story, until Knife of Dreams.  He's not going to come right out and say that Rand will almost certainly need Moiraine in order to succeed, since we all know that Rand is actually going to succeed at the end, so that would have let the cat out of the bag, so to speak.

 

Anyway, again ... I guess we'll see.

[naxxan]

Yeah, I can see where you're going with that.  Like I said before, I don't think Jordan would have led us all down this road to turn around and say "oh that, I meant Morgase." I was more playing devil's advocate than anything else.  Regarding the far apart comment I was hitting on how spaced out the two thoughts were in Min's train of thought.  Mooning over Rand dress, viewing him, trying to convince him she should be "comforted",letting Rand find the perfect coat, weaving a gateway, then having Caraline stumble on them.  I'm with you though, we'll have to wait and see.

[mb]

Min must know the identity?  If Min knew the identity, I think that the identity would have been declared.

It is, when she thinks of Moiraine as her failed vision.

And if Min doesn't know the woman's identity, then why is she sure that the woman is dead and gone?

I meant declared when the viewing is seen; not later on.

 

There have been a number of viewings where an unknown identity were involved.  This viewing seems not much different.

Except that when the identity was unknown in previous visions, Min wasn't sure that the person she saw was "dead and gone".

The viewing I imagine shown a vague face and the only descriptions were that it was a woman and it being dead and gone.

If the viewing shown a certain face, I imagine Min would have known immediately.

If the identity is not know when the viewing is shown, I doubt Min would know before the fulfillment of it.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I meant declared when the viewing is seen; not later on.

 

You do know that we don't have a PoV of her actually seeing the viewing, right?  Just her thinking about it later on.

 

The viewing I imagine shown a vague face and the only descriptions were that it was a woman and it being dead and gone.

 

Look ... the "dead and gone" part can't be part of the viewing.  Min's viewings don't really fail.  Ever.  She just thinks this one will, because it is about Moiraine who she thinks is dead and gone.

 

If the viewing shown a certain face, I imagine Min would have known immediately.

 

Yes.  She knew it was Moiraine.  Who she thinks is dead and gone.

 

If the identity is not know when the viewing is shown, I doubt Min would know before the fulfillment of it.

 

I'm not 100% sure what you meant there, but it is probably irrelevant, because Min does know the identity.  It is Moiraine.

[mb]

I meant declared when the viewing is seen; not later on.

You do know that we don't have a PoV of her actually seeing the viewing, right?  Just her thinking about it later on.

Which makes identifying the person just speculation.

 

The viewing I imagine shown a vague face and the only descriptions were that it was a woman and it being dead and gone.

Look ... the "dead and gone" part can't be part of the viewing.

You can not be entirely certain of that since the viewing is not described.

 

[Dark Justice]

Now I understand why you sigh, RAW....

[Mr Ares]

Now I understand why you sigh, RAW....

What is less clear is why hasn't done so already, but persists with trying to get mb to see sense.

 

The viewing I imagine shown a vague face and the only descriptions were that it was a woman and it being dead and gone.

Look ... the "dead and gone" part can't be part of the viewing.

You can not be entirely certain of that since the viewing is not described.

He can be, because the woman in question is not dead and gone, just someone Min believes to be dead and gone. If the woman was actually dead and gone, then Rand will almost certainly fail.

[mb]

If Min knew it was Moiraine, I think the sentence would have said "without Moiraine".

Instead the sentence said "without a woman who was dead and gone".

 

All Min knew/knows about the viewing I think was in the very sentence.  If Min knew any more, I think the paragraph would have included that information.

 

For Moiraine to fulfill it, she will need to die first and afterward come back from death.

 

It is not necessarily a person with a failed viewing that would fulfill it.  Nor necessarily a person that is thought/believed dead (even by Min), nor necessarily someone mentioned in the chapter.  The person that fulfills it would be someone who was dead before the time it is fulfilled.

 

Again, it is not thought/belief that fulfills any prediction but what actually happens.

 

[Dark Justice]

If Min knew it was Moiraine, I think the sentence would have said "without Moiraine".

Instead the sentence said "without a woman who was dead and gone".

 

Why? RJ was trying to not make it onvious that Moiraine is coming back...

 

For Moiraine to fulfill it, she will need to die first and afterward come back from death.

Min thinks Moiraine is dead. Moiraine just needs to come back from the tower to fulfill it...

 

It is not necessarily a person with a failed viewing that would fulfill it.  Nor necessarily a person that is thought/believed dead (even by Min), nor necessarily someone mentioned in the chapter.  The person that fulfills it would be someone who was dead before the time it is fulfilled.

 

what?

[RobertAlexWillis]

If Min knew it was Moiraine, I think the sentence would have said "without Moiraine".

Instead the sentence said "without a woman who was dead and gone".

 

People are sometimes identified by description, even when their identity is know.  "A woman who was dead and gone" accurately describes Moiraine from Min's point of view.

 

All Min knew/knows about the viewing I think was in the very sentence. If Min knew any more, I think the paragraph would have included that information.

 

Why?  To make it easy for you?

 

For Moiraine to fulfill it, she will need to die first and afterward come back from death.

 

Either that, or the "dead and gone" part is not part of the viewing.

 

The person that fulfills it would be someone who was dead before the time it is fulfilled.

 

So, Lanfear (Cyndane).  Because she is the only woman who was dead and gone who is back.

 

OK.  I say Moiraine, you say Lanfear.  We'll see, won't we?

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... parts of those posts were creepily similar, Bwana Tamonten.

[Dark Justice]

LOL ... parts of those posts were creepily similar, Bwana Tamonten.

 

What/who is Bwana Tamonten?

[RobertAlexWillis]

What/who is Bwana Tamonten?

 

Sorry, thats Mr Ares to most everyone else.  Its an inside joke, but he gets it.

[Dark Justice]

hehe.. ok.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wait ... wow, I totally misread something.

 

Please disregard the misaimed Mr Ares joke ... lol ... its always good for me to be reminded to be humble.

 

And no, I don't expect most people to understand what I'm talking about ... so feel free to ignore this post.

[Roxinos]

But your posts are one of the only reasons I still COME here.

[Shard]

It seems like MB is one of those readers that just wants the Author to guide him from dot to dot to paint the picture FOR him instead of figuring it out like the rest of us.

[Roxinos]

It seems to me like mb is a troll.

[Eleint]

I would more say from looking at the threads he's involved in, mb is one of those people who have their pet theories, and cling to them regardless of evidence against, saying 'it could be!'  Kind of like the people who insisted their pet theories with Harry Potter were correct and threw fits when Hermione didn't end up marrying Draco and other silliness.

[Shard]

^ Agreed, there were many fits thrown for those that clung desperately to their pet theories.