Christ v. the anti christ the final showdown.

[Owners.Inc]

So basically, this thread's descended into a free-for-all? ;D

Or is the norm around here? I'm new btw, nice to meet all. :D

[Mr Ares]

But we're not discussing something you did or didn't say at all.

Currently, what Mik said is not being debated. What you think I said was under discussion, now we appear to be discussing what it is we are actually discussing. We are discussing this discussion. It is thoroughly pointless.

That being, the glossary definition of Ba'alzamon being edited to include an "erroneously" and what Mik is suggesting the "erroneously" suggests and RAW (and I suppose yourself as well, though I'm honestly just lost as to the point of your posts at this point) trying to dissuade him and explain the point of the "erroneously."

No, that has long been cleared up. I said Mik was wrong, and that nothing suggested that Ba'alzamon was anything other than Trolloc tongue, that he had (as usual) misinterpreted, that it was saying people were wrong to believe that Ba'alzamon was a reference to Shai'tan, that it referred to Ishamael. Then RAW got confused, then you followed suit. Which is what gave this current mess. Well, at least I understand what is going on.

[Roxinos]

I'm new btw, nice to meet all.

 

Nice to meet you.

 

Each threads discussion attempts to stay on-topic, but oftentimes it does not. Naturally, as a conversation progresses it will stray further and further from the point which initially sparked discussion. It's just something we deal with. The unfortunate part is attempting to make sure that at all times we're all in agreement with the central premises to our arguments. Unfortunately, as is the case in most arguments, the definition of the premises gets confused between each individual, so the conclusions get lost in translation.

 

We are discussing this discussion. It is thoroughly pointless.

 

Actually, I think it's quite pointed. If we can come to an accord as to the nature of this discussion, then we're more likely to be able to understand each other in reference to the actual discussion. Understanding is important rather than just throwing your weight around.

 

Then RAW got confused, then you followed suit. Which is what gave this current mess. Well, at least I understand what is going on.

 

See, NOW you can say the discussion is pointless. We're all in agreement here. Unfortunately, a lack of understanding and an assumption that you were somehow defending Mik lead to a pointless argument. Now that we've cleared that up, the argument can fade. We all agree that Mik was wrong.

[Mr Ares]

For the purposes of my head not exploding, please explain your following statement, Mzee Murugan:

 

We have reason to believe one bit of it is wrong

 

What exactly is the "one bit", and what exactly is the "it"?

Have you got a mop and bucket on standby? The one bit is the erroneous belief that Ba'alzamon is Shai'tan, the it is what we were told in the glossaries to the first two books. That belief is still wrong whether or not we are told that it is right. The glossaries tell us people believe that, and we later learn that belief is wrong (and the glossary is updated to reflect that). It might be a confusing way of stating it, but I trust I have made myself clear. I will now retreat behind an umbrella, so as to remain pristine in the event of your head exploding.

[Mr Ares]

Ba'alzamon (bah-AHL-zah-mon): In the Trolloc tongue, "Heart of the Dark". Believed to be the Trolloc name for the Dark One.

There is absolutely no error in that.

That belief is incorrect. Which is exactly what I was referring to, that we are told in the glossary that they believe something, but that belief is wrong.

[Roxinos]

He didn't say the glossary entry was incorrect. He said, just as you just said, that the belief was incorrect.

[Roxinos]

Ooo...

 

Yeah, I don't know where my head went for a minute.

[Mik]

@RAW:

 

1: Apparently, you missed the real point I was making about what the Glossary had to say about Ba'alzamon. I guess you rather hide behind your limitless depth of grammar knowledge then the real issue.

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2: Not that it matters, but if we just follow your line of reasoning, then what about this one?

cuendillar (CWAIN-der-yar): Also known as heartstone. See heartstone.

 

heartstone: An indestructible substance created during the Age of Legends. Any force used in an attempt to break it is absorbed, making heartstone stronger.

 

Look what is written a while later..

 

cuendillar: A supposedly indestructible substance created during the Age of Legends. Any known

force used in an attempt to break it is absorbed, making cuendillar stronger. Although the making of cuendillar has been thought lost forever, rumors of new objects made from it have surfaced. It is also known as heartstone.

 

Then what, huh? Enjoy.

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3: You never adressed the most important issue; timing.

 

How did too-lazy-and-dumb-to-come-remotely-close-to-a-decent-soldiers-constructs (yes, Trollocs) come up with their own language in -lets be generous- one generation?

Wouldn't it make more sense (as in -A LOT more- sense) they used a word from the only language available to them at that time? Yes, the Old Tongue. Or, maybe even more logical...were given a name to use for the regent of the Dark One in this world? You know... the guy they fear so much they want to wriggle through the floor when he's near (see TGH prologue)...

 

And yeah, I must be one hell of a moron to try and give a different angle for you guys to concider..

 

@Ares...

Never mind.

[Roxinos]

I don't see your point in bringing up the glossary definition of cuendillar.

 

The whole reason RAW brought up cuendillar was to show you that "heart" in the Old Tongue is "cuen" and "Shadow" in the Old Tongue is "shadar."

 

Your second part about the origin of the Trolloc language makes more sense. I certainly applaud you for it.

 

However, that still doesn't change the fact that "-amon" just doesn't translate, in the Old Tongue, to "heart." "Cuen" is the basic word for "heart" in the Old Tongue. So that's a connection that you just can't make between Lews Therin Telamon and Ba'alzamon.

 

Besides...Telamon is Lews Therin's real name. Ba'alzamon is Elan Morin Tedronai's given name. It would make more sense to compare Lews Therin Telamon to Elan Morin Tedronai (which share no resemblance). Or perhaps compare The Dragon, Lord of the Morning, or Kinslayer to Ishamael or Ba'alzamon.

[Mik]

I don't see your point in bringing up the glossary definition of cuendillar.

Well. RAW kinda made a point about the Glossary being a collection of error-free statements. I don't really know what he was trying to prove, but whatever his point was, I think it just went moot.

 

The whole reason RAW brought up cuendillar was to show you that "heart" in the Old Tongue is "cuen" and "Shadow" in the Old Tongue is "shadar."

See above. The two were unrelated in this case.

Like I said earlier; Old Tongue words can often be interpreted in different ways and can mean different things. And vice versa, more then one Old Tongue word can roughly mean the same thing in the common tongue.

 

In the same way, that Ashandarei means sword-spear, mandarb means blade and manshima means sword.

Wich -incidently- (ahum) could very well mean that "Asha'man" has another meaning the we are led to believe.

Asha'man could very well also mean "Sword-blade".. get it?

 

Your second part about the origin of the Trolloc language makes more sense. I certainly applaud you for it.

I think the first part made sense too. ;)

Thanks though.

 

However, that still doesn't change the fact that "-amon" just doesn't translate, in the Old Tongue, to "heart." "Cuen" is the basic word for "heart" in the Old Tongue. So that's a connection that you just can't make between Lews Therin Telamon and Ba'alzamon.

See above. And I did make the connection, so apparantly I can.

 

Besides...Telamon is Lews Therin's real name.

Nope. Telamon is the honorary title given to Lews Therin by people who knew what they were talking about.

 

Ba'alzamon is Elan Morin Tedronai's given name.

So you say. Did it never make you guys wonder though?

Why did Trollocs even have a name for Ishamael. What do they sense/ know that we don't?

Why does RJ tell us that Trollocs give Myrddraal a name?

That Trollocs have their own name for Ishamael is because the Trollocs know he's bound to Shai'tan so close, he's as close to a Myrddraal as you can get. If the name was given to the Trollocs to use, or that they picked it themselves and names Ishamael from the only language they had at that time, is not really relevant.

 

It would make more sense to compare Lews Therin Telamon to Elan Morin Tedronai (which share no resemblance). Or perhaps compare The Dragon, Lord of the Morning, or Kinslayer to Ishamael or Ba'alzamon.

Uhh. why?

 

Cheerio,

Bringer of the Light - aka Mik

 

 

P.S:

@Ares, RAW & Mai...I'm sorry for you guys. I know that I'm peeing on what you consider to be your turf. Now get over it. Ok? I'm just a moron with an insect brain that happens to make your lives miserable because you guys somehow feel obliged to read and respond to the vomit I conjure up.

But when you look at it objectively, you're doing the exact same thing.. only you've been doing it for a longer time.. with the same old cow-dung over and over again.  :-*

[Roxinos]

In the same way, that Ashandarei means sword-spear, mandarb means blade and manshima means sword.

 

See, but you're conveniently ignoring that sword-spear, blade, and sword are three different words referring to three different things. No matter how similar they are, they're different, and, as such, have different words.

 

Asha'man could very well also mean "Sword-blade".. get it?

 

No, it can't. The apostrophe thrown into the middle changes it up, it alters the word to mean Guardian.

 

See above. And I did make the connection, so apparantly I can.

 

Oh yeah, sure you are capable of it. Doesn't mean it's reasonable. I can also make the connection that Lews Therin and Perrin are some how connected because their first names end in "-rin." Doesn't mean it's anything but nonsense.

 

Nope. Telamon is the honorary title given to Lews Therin by people who knew what they were talking about.

 

Not that I don't believe you...but I don't believe you. Quote please!

 

Did it never make you guys wonder though? Why did Trollocs even have a name for Ishamael.

 

No, it never made me wonder. Ishamael was around for a lot longer than any other of the Chosen. They feared him. He went mad and half-thought he was the Great Lord. For three thousand years he led the Trollocs and Myrddraal. For three thousand years he altered history in the Shadow's favor. He was a person they feared more than any other. More than any other, he seemed to be the Heart of the Dark.

 

What do they sense/ know that we don't?

 

That's a presupposition that they sense/know something that we don't.

 

Why does RJ tell us that Trollocs give Myrddraal a name?

 

What?

 

Uhh. why?

 

Consistency. You wouldn't compare a romance novel to a science fiction epic. They may both be books, but they're completely different genres.

 

In this case, you wouldn't compare a given name/title to a real name. They may both be names, but they're completely different types.

 

 

 

Anyway, needless to say the fact is that Ba'alzamon and Telamon are not in the same language. Regardless of how long the Trolloc tongue took to develop, regardless of the origins of the Trolloc tongue, the fact of the matter remains, they are not in the same language. One is Old Tongue. One is Trolloc tongue.

 

You're making bald assertions that the similarities remained great enough for Ba'alzamon, whenever the name was given to Ishamael, to share a common root with Telamon.

 

You're making bald assertions about which parts of the word "Tel'aran'rhiod" refers to the "world" in the "World of Dreams" and which part of "Ba'alzamon" refers to the "heart" in the "Heart of the Dark."

 

You're also making assertions as to what the word "Telamon" means.

 

You're also making bald assertions that the Eye of the World refers to the Dragon, despite all evidence to the contrary (we know for a fact that the Eye of the World is a pool of saidin).

 

That is where everyone's problem lies. You're making a million bald assertions, and basing your conclusion an a million uncertain premises. Let's list 'em once more.

 

Premise 1) The Trolloc tongue developed from the Old Tongue.

Premise 2) Ba'alzamon shares a root with Telamon.

Premise 3) The "amon" in Ba'alzamon means "heart."

Premise 4) The "amon" in Telamon means "heart."

Premise 5) The Dragon is the Eye of the World.

Premise 6) The "tel" in Tel'aran'rhiod means "world."

Conclusion) The shared root is a hint that Moridin and Rand are connected.

 

Premise 1 is given. Premises 2 through 6 are all shaky, built upon one another, and ungrounded in anything. If they are all true, then you might have something to stand on. However, the chances of all of those premises being true are just unbelievably slim. And what's more, you haven't provided any proof for any of those premises.

[Mr Ares]

-sigh-

 

The glossary entry did not say that the belief is correct, merely that it existed.

-sigh- I know that, Robert, but the belief is still incorrect whether or not we were told it was correct. We are told about the belief in the glossary, the belief is incorrect, therefore something we were told about in the glossary was wrong. Unless you want to try and claim that the belief is correct, or that the glossaries never mentioned that belief, then you really don't have a leg to stand on. We were told about that belief in the glossaries, that beleif is wrong, therefore something we were told about in the glossaries was wrong. Where's the problem?

 

In the same way, that Ashandarei means sword-spear,

Does it? Confirmed or speculation?

mandarb means blade and manshima means sword.

Wich -incidently- (ahum) could very well mean that "Asha'man" has another meaning the we are led to believe.

Asha'man could very well also mean "Sword-blade".. get it?

If mandarb means blade, and Asha'man is sword-blade, what does the "darb" part of mandarb refer to? Also, siswai is spears (algai'd'siswai, siswai'aman). Your OT translations appear to be a house of cards.

 

@Ares, RAW & Mai...I'm sorry for you guys. I know that I'm peeing on what you consider to be your turf. Now get over it. Ok? I'm just a moron with an insect brain that happens to make your lives miserable because you guys somehow feel obliged to read and respond to the vomit I conjure up.

But when you look at it objectively, you're doing the exact same thing.. only you've been doing it for a longer time.. with the same old cow-dung over and over again.  :-*

My name is still Mr Ares, Mik, not Ares. Not to you, anyway. If you want something shorter, try sir. Why just the three of us? Why not add Roxinos to the list, he might be feeling left out? What about Luckers? I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't like a moron with insect brain vomit his non-sensical gibberish masquerading as a theory onto these boards, not just the three of us. If you weren't so blinded to anything other than what you want to see, you might actually be capable of coming up with a theory worth reading. Your desire to ignore anything that contradicts you, or misinterpret to fit your agenda is pathetic.

[Matcauthon999]

Rand has already reasoned out that Moridin must be one of the Forsaken, or at the very least, a close adherent to the Dark One, since he used the True Power.  

 

Is Rand aware of the True Power, because im not so sure about that. May have missed it not sure. All he knows in my view is that Moridin is in his head somehow. Oh and is Rand's bad eye sight going to come from Moridin's saa eyes?

[Matcauthon999]

sorry couldn't remember that and yeah to the person who was saying that Taim = Moridin/ Ishamael isn't that clearly false mainly due to the fact that Ishamael  is as strong as rand in the power and Taim is weaker? Unless he knows how to partially block his power. Yeah I always assumed that the saa would block his sight, thanks for clearing that up I checked and you are correct 'the saa was a blizzard of black but it did not hinder his sight.' Thanks man