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[Jethro]

Yes but I see more futility in RAW answering everything I say with a sarcastic remark in attempts to make me look stupid. I can handle banter when it is banter. Having theories shot down is all fine and dandy until it gets done in the way RAW and Ares do it

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

You aren't the first to say so.

I won't be the last either, you meanie.

 

Yes but I see more futility in RAW answering everything I say with a sarcastic remark in attempts to make me look stupid. I can handle banter when it is banter. Having theories shot down is all fine and dandy until it gets done in the way RAW and Ares do it

Just between me and you, I think that RAW is the stupid-looking one.  I mean, what's with that avatar?  Is that Mat?  Pfffft.  And his name!  Search his name on google, and you find a bunch of crappy fashion doodles from some guy from Detroit!  Who uses a full name on the internet anyway?

 

But seriously, it's good to be shot down every once in a while.  If you're always right, your head will swell up and you'll start to act like Mr Ares.  And then there's Roxinos!  Giving out advice like it's going out of style, he is a bootlicker, a toady.  Water_seeker is just dumb, and for that matter, so are you Jethro.  In fact, I'm the only smart, reasonable person here!  I never say anything mean, and my posts sparkle with golden stars.

 

<(^ -^)>

(>^ -^)>

<(^- ^)>

<(^- ^<)

 

It's kirby, b***hes!  I'll wear your skin!

[Builder]

What the hell is going on, someone's sleeping in my home!

[RobertAlexWillis]

I won't be the last either, you meanie.

 

No doubt.  Silly people who shouldn't be taken seriously are everywhere.

 

Yes but I see more futility in RAW answering everything I say with a sarcastic remark in attempts to make me look stupid.

 

Of course it is futile.  That doesn't mean it isn't fun.  If I thought that being serious would have any impact on you, I'd do it.  Since you've demonstrated that you're not interested in rationality, I'm not bothering with that.

 

Just between me and you, I think that RAW is the stupid-looking one.

 

Of course you do.  I said you were wrong.

 

I can handle banter when it is banter. Having theories shot down is all fine and dandy until it gets done in the way RAW and Ares do it.

 

When people post in such a way that it demonstrates a lack of thoughtful effort on their part, I find that insulting to all the people who do put in thoughtful effort.  And so, I treat those posts as they deserve, no matter who they come from.

 

I am perfectly respectful to people with whom I disagree on ideas that have clearly been well thought out.  And when people post crap, even if they are agreeing with me, I call them on it.  That includes myself.  When I post in a non-thoughtful manner, I rip myself for it too.

 

(Understand, I'm not using the word "thoughtful" in the way it is normally misused.  Most people say "thoughtful" when they mean "considerate".  I mean "thoughtful" in the sense of "showing evidence of thought".)

 

I mean, what's with that avatar?  Is that Mat?  Pfffft.

 

LMAO ... this from Kirby?

 

And his name!  Search his name on google, and you find a bunch of crappy fashion doodles from some guy from Detroit!

 

Wow ... you tried to Google me?  Thats pathetic.

 

Who uses a full name on the internet anyway?

 

Someone who doesn't feel a need to hide behind a pink eating machine and call people "meanie"?

 

In fact, I'm the only smart, reasonable person here!

 

Of course you are.  There, there.  Does someone have his medicine?

 

And finally, for Roxinos.

 

Seriously, do you not see the futility of this back and forth of name-calling? I'm making fun of all of you, RAW included. Your logic should stand on its own weight. If you get frustrated, but don't want to seem as if you're giving up, then just wait until you can calm yourself down before you post. And instead of making a short post insulting someone, go back to the beginning and destroy their points one-by-one.

 

Of course it's futile.  I did make a rational argument first.  They paid no attention, took it as a personal attack, and started being silly.  I see no need to continue to pretend to rationality at that point. And there is also no point in going back to the beginning and reiterating the argument a point at a time.  I used to think that such an approach would be effective.  But experience shows that it is not.  People who don't listen to a rational argument the first time aren't going to listen the second or third or fiftieth, because what they think isn't based in a rational thought process.

 

So, I go silly on them.  Does that mean I'm sinking to their level?  Yes, in precisely the same way that you "NO U" does.

 

It is a little ironic that you made fun of me making fun of someone else, and then went on to moralize about such an approach.  ;D

 

Cue the mod to close this thread!

[Roxinos]

And finally, for Roxinos.

 

Always save the best for last, eh? :D

 

Of course it's futile.  I did make a rational argument first.  They paid no attention, took it as a personal attack, and started being silly.  I see no need to continue to pretend to rationality at that point.

 

Well, then disarm their attacks with silliness rather than shooting attacks back. However right you may be.

 

And there is also no point in going back to the beginning and reiterating the argument a point at a time.  I used to think that such an approach would be effective.

 

Yeah, I know it won't be effective. That's just me grasping at hope.

 

Yes, in precisely the same way that you "NO U" does.

 

Well yeah, that was my point. :D

 

It is a little ironic that you made fun of me making fun of someone else, and then went on to moralize about such an approach.

 

Also the point. :D But I'm sure you knew that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's just me grasping at hope.

 

Ah, hope.  Sweet, comforting, irrational hope. 

[Osan`gar]

wow this thread has sure degenerated into some fine quality fertilizer... i think that quick witted banter, even if slightly mean spirited, is fine but i see some nasty negative personal attacks. usually that is the first resort of the incompetent. RAW and Mr. Ares may sometimes be caustic but they do not deserve personal attacks. come up with an argument or some witty banter. in any event get some thick skin, develope some communications skills, and grow the heck up !!!

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Wow ... you tried to Google me?  Thats pathetic.

No, your doodles are pathetic.

Okay, okay, I'm sorry.  I was just taking out my frustration.  Can we get back to WoT?  Probably not, but here's a shot at it.

 

No, its not that simple.  That Dark One needs the willing cooperation of as many people as he can get within the Pattern.  For that, he has to lie to them.

So why doesn't he lie about the effects of balefire?  It was discovered during the War of Power, and no one knew what it did for a year.  The DO could easily have told his minions that if they kept it up, the pattern would weaken enough to let him slip out of his prison.  Why wouldn't they believe him?

 

There is a big difference between what the Dark One said to Demandred, and saying "Blow up the whole world with balefire".

Yes, I said that.

 

No, these people, Ishy excepted, would not go in for destroying the world.  But that is definitely what the Dark One wants.

I don't know: the DO says a lot of things, but he doesn't say outright that he wants the universe to be destroyed they way balefire would destroy it.

 

Now, in the practical sense?  Unless both sides are using it rampantly, its not likely to ever actually work; there aren't enough bad guys who know balefire anymore, and they don't have tons of angreal and sa'angreal like back in the day.  The good guys seem to have all the big guns.  So, that Dark One isn't going to scare away his minions by trying to force them to do something they don't want to.  Much better to work on other options, and keep them in the dark.

Yes, it is impractical now.  It wasn't at the beginning of the War of Power after they discovered balefire.

 

I'm just saying, the DO had an opportunity to order the world destroyed with balefire, but he didn't even try to take it.  I think that's because He doesn't want it to end like that.  Why?  Maybe he doesn't want to destroy the world at all, or maybe he has to wait for a certain time to do so.  Maybe he can only destroy the world after he has broken free.  In any case, I don't think He wants the world destroyed yet.

[Roxinos]

Why wouldn't they believe him?

 

I'm not quite sure if it was discovered in the War of Power, but it was certainly used most often during it. And in that case, the Great Lord was free. I could be wrong about that fact, but it is not important to the rest of my point.

 

The Great Lord's followers wouldn't believe him because they are intelligent. They understood how balefire worked. They understood what it did. They knew that it was destroying the Pattern, that's why both sides stopped using it. If the Great Lord had ordered them, they would have looked at him blankly, said, "Yes, my Lord," turned tail and ran because they'd realize that the Great Lord wanted to destroy the world.

 

You forget that the people in the Age of Legends were unparalleled in their knowledge of the Power. There are a few things they did not know were possible, like healing burning out and severing, but those are things they had not discovered. It is fairly easy to suggest that those weaves which had been discovered (like balefire) and had been used extensively (again, like balefire) would be understood.

 

Even people in the Third Age understand balefire and its effects. And that knowledge comes down from the knowledge passed down from the War of Power. That tells you that they were aware of it. So even if they did not study it as I suggest, they knew of balefire's effects. No doubt the Great Lord and the higher-ups ordered the use of balefire. Both sides used it because it was a great weapon. And no doubt the Great Lord thought the mass use of balefire, destabilizing the Pattern, was excellent. Once the Light and the Shadow discovered the effects of balefire, they stopped.

 

I don't know: the DO says a lot of things, but he doesn't say outright that he wants the universe to be destroyed they way balefire would destroy it.

 

Who would the Great Lord tell? If the Great Lord says to his followers, "I want to destroy all of time, you will not exist, must less be able to rule," they will not follow him. They will not help set him free. He needs people, much to his chagrin I'm sure. And even if he doesn't say, "You will not exist, much less be able to rule," I'm sure his followers will extrapolate that from "I want to destroy all of time." So who do you propose the Great Lord tell?

 

Of course the Great Lord hasn't said anything about wanting to destroy the universe.

 

If he outright said, "I don't want to destroy time, I want to rule the world," then you'd have a bit of something to stand on. Of course, that would still be in doubt because he is the Father of Lies, but at least you'd have some basis in the books to believe that he doesn't want to destroy everything.

 

I'm just saying, the DO had an opportunity to order the world destroyed with balefire, but he didn't even try to take it.

 

And I'm saying he didn't. Because people are smart.

 

He probably did order the use of balefire during the War of Power (if he had any amount of military control during that war). That doesn't mean that his followers would have continued to use it even after they discovered its effects on the Pattern. And he could not have ordered them for aforementioned reasons.

[RobertAlexWillis]

So why doesn't he lie about the effects of balefire?  It was discovered during the War of Power, and no one knew what it did for a year.  The DO could easily have told his minions that if they kept it up, the pattern would weaken enough to let him slip out of his prison.  Why wouldn't they believe him?

 

Because they wouldn't believe him.  They figured out what it was doing when they used it on a large scale.  So, lets say he did order them to do it, lying and saying "Oh, no, it will just free me, it won't destroy existence, you'll get your kingdoms."  What would have happened?

 

They go out and try it on a large scale.  They see that the Pattern is in danger of unraveling, and then they know for sure that the Dark One is just playing them.  They stop.  He no longer has the servants within the Pattern that he needs.  Oops.

 

Even if every dark channeler in the world making as much balefire as they can, it is not going to destroy the world instantly.  If he gave that order, they would figure out what was going on before they finished, and they would stop, because, with the exception of Moridin, they don't actually want to destroy the world.

 

Besides, at least Lanfear does know how his prison works, on both a practical and theoretical level.  She helped make the Bore, remember?  The Forsaken from the AoL have a pretty good idea of how existence works ... which is why they figured out the danger of balefire and stopped using it.

 

As insane as it seems, the cooperation between the Dark One and the Forsaken is based on trust.  As long as the Dark One is not blatant about his agenda, they can believe that he is going to reward them.  But if he gets caught in such a blatant lie ... they wouldn't trust him to hold up his end of the deal, and so wouldn't serve anymore.

 

I do have fun picturing Demandred's face at the very end of a hypothetical victory for the Shadow, though ...

 

"But, you promised me immortality!"

 

"AND YOU HAVE RECEIVED IT.  YOU WILL LIVE UNTIL THE END OF TIME.  TOO BAD FOR YOU THAT'S RIGHT NOW!  MWAHAHAHAHAHA."

 

-End of Time-

 

Yes, I said that.

 

You said it, but you didn't seem to understand the implications of it.

 

I don't know: the DO says a lot of things, but he doesn't say outright that he wants the universe to be destroyed they way balefire would destroy it.

 

Because we've only seen him talking once.  To Demandred.  Who would not go along with it if the Dark One said exactly what he wants.  He lies to his followers, just like they lie to lots of other people.

 

Yes, it is impractical now.  It wasn't at the beginning of the War of Power after they discovered balefire.

 

Yes, it was just as impractical then.  Both sides used it on a huge scale, and still didn't actually undo the Pattern.  It takes prolonged use at that level to endanger existence.  The Shadow was never capable of producing as much balefire as both sides were capable of producing together.  So, unless the Dark One could have convinced not only his followers, but his enemies, to continue using it on a massive scale, after both sides knew the consequences, then it wouldn't have worked.

 

If he could make it work, then the Dark One probably would be perfectly happy to order it.  But he knows it won't, so he's not going to risk losing the followers he has on a plan that won't work anyway.

[Mr Ares]

Having theories shot down is all fine and dandy until it gets done in the way RAW and Ares do it

With syle? I have two questions about your earlier swearing at RAW: firstly, do you have something against Maj (or whoever gets the job), what with making him go to the effort of editing your post? Secondly, do you have something against punctuation marks?

 

If you're always right, your head will swell up and you'll start to act like Mr Ares.

It takes years of experience to act like me and get away with it. But I do agree that I'm always right.

 

I'll wear your skin!

I'm not convinced that's a good idea.

 

RAW and Mr Ares may sometimes be caustic but they do not deserve personal attacks.

If you say so. I'm not convinced, I still don't like that Mr Ares chap.

 

grow the heck up !!!

What's the point of being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes?