The Souls of Shadowspawn

[Rinkai]

I disagree. I really do think bale fire destroys the soul. Its been said that the DO cannot revive someone killed by balefire. Was it sammeal? I dont remember. Anywho, the only reason I can think of for not being able to revive him is, there is not soul to put in a body.

[Eleint]

I disagree. I really do think bale fire destroys the soul. Its been said that the DO cannot revive someone killed by balefire. Was it sammeal? I dont remember. Anywho, the only reason I can think of for not being able to revive him is, there is not soul to put in a body.

 

Jordan's said otherwise explicitly.  And the reason the Dark One can't resurrect someone is he cannot reach outside of time.  Balefire kills them before the instant of death, and the Dark One can't reach 'back in time' to take their soul.  He actually talks about this a bit in the prologue to Lord of Chaos.  No, Balefire does not destroy souls.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I disagree. I really do think bale fire destroys the soul. Its been said that the DO cannot revive someone killed by balefire. Was it sammeal? I dont remember. Anywho, the only reason I can think of for not being able to revive him is, there is not soul to put in a body.

 

As Eleint said, Jordan explicitly stated that balefire does not destroy the soul.

 

As for the reason why a balefired soul can practically never be transmigrated by the Dark One, he gave an implied answer in the book, and an explicit answer outside the books.

 

In the prologue to LoC, the Dark One stated quite angrily that he cannot step outside of time.

 

The outside the book explanation:

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

Robert Jordan in Tor's Questions of the Week, Questions from December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004, Question 3 answer. http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, RJ said that balefire doesn't mean eternal death. From "Thus Spake the Creator":

Balefire: I'm right.  (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is Balefire, the Dark One can't reincarnate them.  But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal.  Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul.  He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.  There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

Machin Shin also eats the souls of people (not just the DO). From "Thus Spake the Creator":

Machin Shin eats the souls _and_ memories of the people it catches.

 

"Thus Spake the Creator":

Q: In The Great Hunt, you showed us Trayal, the Ogier without a soul. And he could still walk. Barely, but he could still walk. So, the body retains some skill without the soul. How.. how's that.. divided?

A: Think of it as.. ah, as what is autonomic, nervous-system really, autonomic nerve reflexes. You still breathe, you still move, but I would not... I would not ask him to play the flute.

Q: Language skills?

A: Ehm.. no.

Q: Absolutely nothing at all?

A: Absolutely nothing. Unless it's done in the form of a Gray Man. Which is a voluntary ahh.. rejection of your own soul. In that case, there are other skills, higher function. That's a matter of making a deal with the Dark One, and there are other prices to be paid from that.

(Yup, that was me again. Olver-Cain suddenly begins to look dim to me.)

 

 

Another mentioning of removing of soul from the soulless. From "Thus Spake the Creator":

Q: Umm, we were wondering if you had to take someone down into the PoD to make them into a Grey Man, you know, 'cause it seems so similar to mind trapping someone. 

A: Yes...at least that's the way I've always thought of it. It's not easy to remove someone's soul.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on April 14, 2009, 10:32:03 AM

Quote

I'm with Roxinos on this one. It's obvious Trollocs have human souls.

 

"Umm... no one in this thread has actually disagreed with that idea--which, by the way, was initially stated by me, not Roxinos."

 

Roxinos said the thread was pointless up untill that point. I agree.

 

Oh, so you were just being rude. Gotcha.

 

Oh.. your idea?

Equal yet not..? 

On the internet, everything has been said before.

 

And yet i can quite clearly remember amazing firsts--the first time someone realised Graendal killed Asmodean. The first time that Anath was said to be Semirhage. The first time Taim was said to be Demandred. The first time someone realised the Seanchan were going to attack the Tower.

 

I dunno Mik--'on the internet everything has been said before'?

 

Perhaps you just havn't been round long enough.

 

In the short though, in this specific thread, yes, it was my idea. My statement.

 

"and in this world at least dreaming is the function of the soul."

 

Drivel. You may believe this, but you do not know it. 

 

Three points.

 

1. Learn to use the quote function. It's not hard, and it makes things so much clearer.

 

2. We do know it as a fact. Dreaming is a function of the soul, if the soul dreams too deeply the soul leaves the body--this we know between Dreamwalkers, and the experience in which Perrin's soul left his body when he was searching for Faile when she was taken by the Shaido--Annoura directly states it, though we hear it through Berelain.

 

3. You don't talk to fellow posters that way. You don't like something they say then disagree and state way. You don't call it drivel.

 

"Whats more is that we know that there is a difference between animal and human souls,"

 

You cannot possibly know this, because you do not know what a soul is, or even if it exists, much less what the varieties of such a thing might be.  You may very well belive this, but that is not knowing, and if you think it is, you miss-understand religious faith.

 

We do actually know what the soul is--within the prescripts of this made-up story. We know it exists, and we know the difference between human and animal souls. Within the prescripts of this story.

 

As a side note i majoured in religion and philosophy. I even attained honourable mentions for my paper on the nature of the soul. That being said, what does misunderstanding (yes, thats how you write that) religious faith have to do with anything? As an athiest i have almost no understanding of the concept of faith--which seems to me the disreguard of fact to sustain belief, so perhaps im missing something--but what does understanding religious faith have to do with the concept of the soul?

 

It's utterly irrelevant to this of course, i was just a bit intrigued by your comment.

 

 

 

As a final note--though i actually agree with pretty much everything said--i feel the need to again point out the dangers of relying on "Thus Spake the Creator". It's unsourced--and worse, paraphrased. Meanings have been altered, and at times even its own author seems confused to what he is referring.

 

It's fine for casual use, but its not to be used for actual proof.

 

That being said most of the things it referenced exist in their pure form out there. Invest the effort, its worth it--if for no other reason than to avoid wankers like me going 'BUT it's unsourced, so there!"

[Nightstrike]

How do we know that shadowspawn dream? How do we know that feelings or dreams equals the WoT "soul"? If the shadowspawn indeed have souls (all or at least some of them), then why would they have human souls?

 

I'd rather rely on "thus spake the creator" than just making assumptions...

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

According to Lanfear, who is an expert on dreams, only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. (TDR ch 36)

 

Which sort of makes me think that Myrddraal are what happens when a Trolloc gives birth to something without a soul.

 

Which means that Shaidar Haran probably literally has a piece of the Dark One where the soul might otherwise have been.

[Luckers]

How do we know that shadowspawn dream?

 

Lanfear states it.

 

How do we know that feelings or dreams equals the WoT "soul"?

 

Who mentioned feelings? As for dreams... well, the action of dreaming is the action of the soul leaving its body. We know this through several different sources, but the clearest is that we've seen people who enter the dream too completely develop the signs of someone who has lost their soul.

 

Thus the process of dreaming equals a function of the soul. Thus, we can state that to dream is to have a soul.

 

In this world anyway. In the real world dreams are random synaptic pulses rationalized by the brain into random, if recognizable images.

 

If the shadowspawn indeed have souls (all or at least some of them), then why would they have human souls?

 

Umm... did you read the thread? That's what its about. Mik even mocked me for bother to put an argument to it, because to him it seemed self-evident.

 

I'd rather rely on "thus spake the creator" than just making assumptions...

 

I'd rather do neither. But that may just be me.

[Nightstrike]

Lanfear states it.

OK, I had forgot about that.

 

As for dreams... well, the action of dreaming is the action of the soul leaving its body. We know this through several different sources, but the clearest is that we've seen people who enter the dream too completely develop the signs of someone who has lost their soul.

 

Thus the process of dreaming equals a function of the soul. Thus, we can state that to dream is to have a soul.

Do you have any quote that says that dreams means a soul?

 

 

 

If the shadowspawn indeed have souls (all or at least some of them), then why would they have human souls?

 

Umm... did you read the thread? That's what its about. Mik even mocked me for bother to put an argument to it, because to him it seemed self-evident.

Yeah, I think some of them have feelings at the very least (and dreams, apparantly). Might have some sort of soul too. But I do not think that they have a human soul. And I don't think that their souls would be spun out by the Wheel. That's my bet, but you said earlier that they have a human soul. We have no evidence to point us in that direction, but we do have evidence that speaks against it.

 

We don't know whether RJ intended for them to have a soul or not, but the "Thus Spake the Creator" quote seems to speak against it.

 

 

[Luckers]

Do you have any quote that says that dreams means a soul?

 

In reference to what? The stated argument I stated?

 

If you wish.

 

"She [Annoura] seemed afraid you might die even after she Healed you. You slept like a man already dead. She said you almost felt like someone who had lost his soul, cold no matter how many blankets were piled on you. I [berelain] felt it, as well, when I touched you."

 

This is also why Verin was able to detect that the Ogier had no soul in tGH despite being in a stedding.

 

Yeah, I think some of them has feelings at the very least (and dreams, apparantly). Might have some sort of soul too. But I do not think that they have a human soul. And I don't think that they are spun out by the Wheel. That's my bet, but you said earlier that they have a human soul. We have no evidence to point us in that direction, but we do have evidence that speaks against it.

 

We don't know whether RJ intended for them to have a Soul or not, but the "Thus Spake the Creator" quote seems to speak against it.

 

Actually mate, i made this thread to lay out my 'theory' that they had a human soul--and to lay down my reasons for suggesting, of course--thats what this thread is, a theory. You've not caught me stating something i believe as fact, i was laying down an idea. And I created this thread to do it. I did not 'earlier state...' anything.

 

And yes, I did also back up my theory with reasoning, none of which your addressing--indeed 'we have no evidence to point us in that direction' seems to be a direct slap in the face, since thats what this thread is. It's what its about. Why it was started.

 

You could at least respond to the ideas others think point in that direction before dismissing them as not existing. Just saying.

 

 

 

 

As for "Thus Spake the Creator"--go find the real quote. If it's real it's out there. If it's not out there, let it go. You don't have a leg to stand on sustaining an unsourced quote in contradiction to logic based on statements from the text.

 

By the way, you do realise i wasn't attacking your comment when i made the post above--there had been so many references to Thus Spake the Creator from several posters that i felt the need to point out that all were voided by the complete unreliability of their sourcework. I wasn't attacking you. I honestly hadn't even read your comment.

[Nightstrike]

"She [Annoura] seemed afraid you might die even after she Healed you. You slept like a man already dead. She said you almost felt like someone who had lost his soul, cold no matter how many blankets were piled on you. I [berelain] felt it, as well, when I touched you."

This is also why Verin was able to detect that the Ogier had no soul in tGH despite being in a stedding.

I think all that means is that, if you have a soul, you can lose it if you get lost in t'a'r.

 

Actually mate, i made this thread to lay out my 'theory' that they had a human soul--and to lay down my reasons for suggesting, of course--thats what this thread is, a theory. You've not caught me stating something i believe as fact, i was laying down an idea. And I created this thread to do it. I did not 'earlier state...' anything.

Yeah, and I don't agree. Tor question of the week:

Week 9 Question: If it's possible to bond a Myrddraal like a Warder? For one of the Black Ajah or a Forsaken, for example? What happens then to such a person?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It would be possible, but hardly wise because of the sharing of emotions. It is exceedingly likely that anyone who had a knot of Myrddraal emotions in his or her head, even to the small degree caused by the Warder bond, would very soon go insane. Myrddraal may contain human stock, but they are definitely not human. I don't think even Padan Fain could survive that without going madder than he already is.

 

 

And yes, I did also back up my theory with reasoning, none of which your addressing--indeed 'we have no evidence to point us in that direction' seems to be a direct slap in the face, since thats what this thread is. It's what its about. Why it was started.

I'm sorry you take it that way. I didn't mean to offend. But, why are you getting offended, when you're just laying out a theory? Ain't I allowed to disagree?

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Has anyone ever wondered where they come from? They have them--they have dreams, and in this world at least dreaming is the function of the soul. Whats more is that we know that there is a difference between animal and human souls, and the souls of the shadowspawn--by which i mean the Trollocs, Myrdraal, gholam and Draghkar, seem to be in the same form as human souls.

 

If this is the case it means that Trollocs and all the rest have human souls in them. Perhaps that is why the True Power was nessasary in their creation, to twist their innate natures so as to make them inherently evil.

 

I've many thoughts, which I believe relate:

 

Trollocs are directly derived from humans.  I can't remember the exact book but there was a scene involving Trollocs dreaming and Lanfear states they dream.  All of which supports the post.

 

Gholam & Draghkar are humanoid and I assume directly derived from humans similar to Trollocs.  Based on Lanfear's POV, we assume they can dream.  This too seems to support the post.

 

Myrdraal are spawned from Trollocs.  How... I'm not sure.  Gray Men are humans who've given their souls to the DO, so I assume considered soulless.  Lanfear states they don't dream.  These don't seem to support the post.

 

Also, would the lethality of death gates / travelling gates to shadowspawn be attributable to the absence of a soul, or merely due to ties to the DO?  

 

 

[Roxinos]

I'm curious, Luckers, what are your thoughts on the nature of animal souls?

 

We're more or less agreed that dreaming is a function of the soul, and we agree that there are differences between an animal soul and a human soul. Though, despite our agreements, questions still arise for both of us.

 

1) Why are domesticated animals unable to enter Tel'aran'rhiod? Is it some unknown quality of the animal soul?

 

2) If dreaming (that is, regular dreams) are a function of the soul, then do wild animals have dreams?

 

3) If wild animals dream, then do domesticated animals?

 

4) We know Shadowspawn can dream according to Lanfear (as you've pointed out). Is it the human stock which enables this or the animal stock?

 

Of course, most of the answers we could draw for these questions would be pure speculation. But they're interesting questions nonetheless.

 

Edit: I just realized that you provide an answer to the final question in this theory of yours. I'm curious as to the greater reasoning behind your conclusion that the souls of the Shadowspawn are in the same form as that of human souls. If animals can dream, and Trollocs certainly aren't domesticated, then couldn't they have animal souls?

 

I feel out of my depth here. I'd just like a more detailed reasoning.

[Luckers]

I think all that means is that, if you have a soul, you can lose it if you get lost in t'a'r.

 

Yes, precisely--because it is your soul that enters the dream. And we know that it is the same aspect that dreams normally from Egwene's description of stepping from dream to dreamworld.

 

Quote

Actually mate, i made this thread to lay out my 'theory' that they had a human soul--and to lay down my reasons for suggesting, of course--thats what this thread is, a theory. You've not caught me stating something i believe as fact, i was laying down an idea. And I created this thread to do it. I did not 'earlier state...' anything.

Yeah, and I don't agree. Tor question of the week:

 

Quote

Week 9 Question: If it's possible to bond a Myrddraal like a Warder? For one of the Black Ajah or a Forsaken, for example? What happens then to such a person?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It would be possible, but hardly wise because of the sharing of emotions. It is exceedingly likely that anyone who had a knot of Myrddraal emotions in his or her head, even to the small degree caused by the Warder bond, would very soon go insane. Myrddraal may contain human stock, but they are definitely not human. I don't think even Padan Fain could survive that without going madder than he already is.

 

I get that you don't agree, but what do you think that quote proved? We know they arn't human.

 

I'm sorry you take it that way. I didn't mean to offend. But, why are you getting offended, when you're just laying out a theory? Ain't I allowed to disagree?

 

I wasn't actually offended with you disagreeing, i was offended by your method of disagreeing.

 

By the by--why does it being a theory mean i can't be annoyed at... 'uncouth'--yes, thats how i'll phrase it--uncouth behaviour.

 

:p

 

Myrdraal are spawned from Trollocs.  How... I'm not sure.  Gray Men are humans who've given their souls to the DO, so I assume considered soulless.  Lanfear states they don't dream.  These don't seem to support the post.

 

The Souless do support my post--lacking souls they cannot dream.

 

As for Myrdraal, my guess has always been that they occur when the human gene for channeling breeds true. As such they would not have souls. As to why they don't dream, perhaps it has something to do with them being 'slightly out of phase' as Aginor states.

 

The fact is though that thats a guess. The state of myrdraal is a mystery--this doesn't disagree with my theory, it just means that there are things in play that we don't know about. In fact, the only part about it that would disagree with my theory is the above theory that they occur when the human gene for channeling breeds true. To my mind thats the only thing that suggests they have human souls.

 

Also, would the lethality of death gates / travelling gates to shadowspawn be attributable to the absence of a soul, or merely due to ties to the DO? 

 

Due to the absense of a soul? No. Shadowspawn have souls. Due to their ties to the DO. Perhaps--They cannot pass through because they are constructs, the True Power was used in constructing them. That may well be the element that causes their destruction.

 

1) Why are domesticated animals unable to enter Tel'aran'rhiod? Is it some unknown quality of the animal soul?

 

Perhaps--since their domesticity seems to be the cause my guess is that in establishing bonds with a human guides their souls in following humans into the place between the waking world and TAR. Some sort of 'like calling like' or some such.

 

On the other hand perhaps the reason that humans enter only the place between and not the dream world itself is that they, like their pets and beasts of burden, are domesticated.

 

But yes, we don't know.

 

2) If dreaming (that is, regular dreams) are a function of the soul, then do wild animals have dreams?

 

Perhaps. I suspect they simply enter the dreamworld when asleep.

 

3) If wild animals dream, then do domesticated animals?

 

I'd reverse that. Domesticated animals probably do dream like humans, the question is do wild animals, or do they simply enter the dreamworld when they are asleep?

 

4) We know Shadowspawn can dream according to Lanfear (as you've pointed out). Is it the human stock which enables this or the animal stock?

 

The point above is that i think its the human stock. Animal souls seem to have different functions. Also, different reasoning capabilities.

 

Although, perhaps one could make the case for Trollocs being domesticated. Hmm.

 

A final point I'd make Roxinos, is how do you define dreams?

[Roxinos]

A final point I'd make Roxinos, is how do you define dreams?

 

I assume you mean within the realm of tWoT.

 

Think of three worlds. Randland, the World of Dreams, and the World Between. We know the nature of the former two, but we can only speculate on the latter.

 

By "the World Between" I mean, of course, the world Dreamwalkers can enter and access the dreams of those who are asleep. That "World Between" is accessible to all who can dream, but only Dreamwalkers can exist in the World Between without a construct of their mind to support them. "Dreams" are those constructs.

 

Say what Dreamwalkers do is akin to super lucid dreaming. They're hyper aware of themselves while asleep, so much so that they can exit their own dream and enter the World Between.

[Luckers]

That was the destinction i was curious if you'd made--because of course if wild animals do dream into TAR always, then would not that be their 'dreams'.

 

You had. That's cool.

 

 

[Roxinos]

Honestly, I hadn't thought of it until I just put it into words right there. The idea was obviously in my head, I'd just not actually made the distinction part of my vocabulary. And after I did, your post made a lot more sense with your references to "the place between." *laughs*

[Sila Darklover]

Fascinating discussion.  I'm not usually interested in religion or metaphysics, but would quite like to see these questions answered/pondered in the books.

 

Cool as it was to hear Lanfear saying that Trollocs could dream, I don't recall any scenes (as Matrim Delaneous claimed) where they did so.  ???I'm sure I would have remembered them.  ;)

[Roxinos]

We also don't get any writing in a Trolloc's PoV when they're about to go to sleep for the night.

[Dark Justice]

You guys are friggin awsome. This was so interesting read.

[Dark Justice]

I was just wondering where it was stated by Lanfear that the Eyeless dont dream. Does this mean they can not enter TAR? If they could, you could actually create a 13/13 and turn channelers in TAR to the dark side of the force.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I was just wondering where it was stated by Lanfear that the Eyeless dont dream.

 

TDR, ch 36

 

Does this mean they can not enter TAR?

 

Probably not ... although I wonder if that prevents one from being created there by the mind of a dreamer ...

 

If they could, you could actually create a 13/13 and turn channelers in TAR to the dark side of the force.

 

I can't rule that out 100%.

[Dark Justice]

I dont really think you can create a Myrdraal in TAR, apart from the ones you can put in nightmares. But they wouldnt really be Myrdraal would they? They wouldnt have a Myrdraals soul. At least not as far as I can see...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... I don't think Myrddraal have souls anyway.  I think a Myrddraal is what happens when a Trolloc makes reproduces but for some reason the soul doesn't stick.  A human would be still-born, but the taint from the True Power causes a Myrddraal to be born instead.

 

Thats why the Dark One managed to stick a piece of himself where a soul would normally be in Shaidar Haran.

 

And yes, this is purely theoretical on my part.

[Dark Justice]

yeah. I can see it. But I just always figured the soulless was the only ones without soul. but you might be right. If you are right, you could possibly create a myrdraal in TAR. and a 13/13 could be possible.

 

I just would really like to see anyone do a 13/13. And Id like them to succed. With a POV from the character before and after, so you really get a feel of it.

I do not hope Rand will be turned though..  ;)