The Role of the Horn Hunters in TG

[RobertAlexWillis]

In those circumstances I think that you can throw the rule book out the window and winnow the orders down to, 1. Kill as many trollocs as you can.  2.  Don't die.  Both of those order are things that even a pompous hunter for the horn can manage.

 

If that is the extent of the orders being given, the people fighting will 1) probably not manage to kill any Trollocs before they 2) die.

 

The people in Emond's Field were outnumbered by the Trollocs.  They didn't win by just getting rid of conventional tactics.  They won by exploiting conventional tactics.  Conventional tactics became convention for a reason; the people who used them won, sometimes against very long odds.

 

Though I will agree that the Hunters, in general, probably wouldn't be capable of giving orders any more complicated than those.

 

except that's been exactly what the Band has been doing all along.  Taking minor nobles, that Mat deems not to be complete idiots and putting them in charge of a larger number of less experienced foot or horse. Of course he has stated that he intends to change how those things work, that nobility doesn't matter, but the simple fact of the matter is that by and large that tier of minor nobles has more command experience than the average soldier, and Mat clearly believes in putting the best and most experienced officers in charge.

 

Mat dealt with the minor nobles at first because he HAD to; they brought own private personal units which formed the original core of the Band.  Since he has begun organizing the Band, he has specifically tried to promote from within, according to ability, without regard for noble rank whenever possible.  I can only see this trend increasing, not reversing with an influx of even more minor nobles who aren't bringing their own personal troops in.

 

Another difference is that the nobles Mat had to work with, while sometimes idiots on general principles, actually did have command experience, which is far different from fighting experience, which is what most of the Hunters seem to have.

 

None of the Hunters is going to be bringing their own personal armies with them; all the ones we've had described are very much a step down from Talmanes, Estean, etc.

 

If Mat gets the horn do you think that he will have more raw recruits to the band than he had before?  Will those recruits need officers?

 

I don't think the Horn will be a major draw, because I seriously doubt that Mat will in any way advertise that he has it, once he gets it.  He has plenty of targets painted on his back as it is; no need to add another.  I imagine he will want to hide it as effectively as possible until he has to blow it again.  The Band's reputation is enough of a draw on its own; he's already getting recruits as fast as he wants them.

 

An overly large influx of recruits would be damaging to the Band's structure.  Mat will draw what officers he needs from the more senior soldiers already in the Band, not a bunch of independent minded glory hounds likely to splinter in a thousand different directions in a battle.

[benr]

Another thought that has been previously discussed (and, as with most of my theories, totally disagreed with), is whether Mat is still the only one that can use the horn, as he has died and come back. I admit that it is probable that his "death" wasn't real enough for this to be true, but I still like the plot line possibilities.  Even if Mat had lost his connection to the horn, if he is the next one to blow it he'd get it back again.  Unless there's some rule like the twice through the door frame thing.  But if it's true, and Verin has figured that out (how? - don't know), it opens us up for more Verin shenanigans.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mat has not lost his connection to the Horn.  He didn't "die and come back", he never died.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

From all we've seen of the Hunters they're full of themselves.

Not so.

 

Faile's a hunter.

 

I don't like her all that much, but she's capable.

You get them all together after the Horn is announced as found and you'll have a riot to deal with, not a capable and ready army. I can see it now, every one of them killing each other for possession of the Horn of Valere.

Why?

 

We've got a false dragon following Rand (Logain, not Taim).

They also aren't all capable. I can think of one group that are about like Weiramon. Remember the Hunters that got beat up by two aiel? They did catch one (the one Perrin set free) but they lost more than one life getting him. It might not be fair to compare them to an aielman but I believe the numbers were well in their favor. It was all boast and bluff hot air. Taking an oath doesn't make you a hero or a good fighter but it does swell your ego.

I don't think it's fair to compare them to Aiel at all.

 

Remember all the "If you're good with a blade you have a chance against an unarmed Aiel." They're death walking.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not so.

 

Faile's a hunter.

 

I don't like her all that much, but she's capable.

 

Faile is capable.  She is also quite exceptional.  I hope you're not saying that the average Hunter for the Horn is equivalent to Faile ...

 

Why?

 

We've got a false dragon following Rand (Logain, not Taim).

 

Apples and oranges.  Logain cannot become the Dragon by killing Rand; everyone knows about the prophecies Rand has fulfilled now.  But if you kill the guy with the Horn, you can blow it yourself and become the mighty Hornsounder.

 

That said, I doubt there would be an all out kill em all melee.  It is much more likely that the Hunters will all go home and sulk.  They can be totally ineffective as an army without openly killing each other.

 

I don't think it's fair to compare them to Aiel at all.

 

Remember all the "If you're good with a blade you have a chance against an unarmed Aiel." They're death walking.

 

Fair or not, its a comparison that has to be made.  Rand has several hundred thousand Aiel at his disposal.  Other armies have been forged in the fight against the Shaido (the Band).  If the Hunters are going to be any sort of effective army, in the context of the current situation, they will need to display a greater degree of effectiveness than they have.  We have no reason to believe that they can or will do so.

[Majsju]

With the risk of echoing what has already been said...

 

The Hunters are not soldiers, they are a bunch of gloryhunting adventurers.

Most of them does not know that the Horn has been found, and will most likely just keep searching.

If some of them would have actually learned that the Horn has been found, they might of course join up with one army or another, surely fighting in TG could give them some glory, right. They might also decide to just go home, and sulk because someone cheated them out of their little game. Some might even decide that since it is not really public knowledge who actually found the Horn, the hunt is still on.

 

What they will not do, is gather together, put their egos aside, and form some kind of mythical army. Some might join the Band, or other armies as individuals, but they will not do anything as a collective, because they are not a collective. They have no foundation to build a collective upon.

 

There is no role for the hunters in AMOL, except possibly the occasional individual that might get a cameo.

[cloglord]

What they will not do, is gather together, put their egos aside, and form some kind of mythical army. Some might join the Band, or other armies as individuals, but they will not do anything as a collective, because they are not a collective. They have no foundation to build a collective upon.

 

There is no role for the hunters in AMOL, except possibly the occasional individual that might get a cameo.

 

Yes because they've never before gathered together, and sworn themselves to follow a common goal.  None of them have that shared experience to build a foundation one.... ::)

[Majsju]

 

Yes because they've never before gathered together, and sworn themselves to follow a common goal.  None of them have that shared experience to build a foundation one.... ::)

 

Nope, they have done no such thing.

 

What they have done is swearing an oath at the same time, which is radically different from doing it together.

 

Seriously, you need to drop this weird fixation with the Horn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes because they've never before gathered together, and sworn themselves to follow a common goal.  None of them have that shared experience to build a foundation one....

 

Not all shared experiences are foundations for future cooperation.  They vowed to INDIVIDUALLY seek the Horn.  Mostly for personal glory.  Thats not a basis for future cooperation.  There was no "lets all get back together when this is over" clause.

[cloglord]

Nope, they have done no such thing.

 

What they have done is swearing an oath at the same time, which is radically different from doing it together.

 

Seriously, you need to drop this weird fixation with the Horn.

 

Seriously you need to drop this weird fixation with telling people what to do or think.  Disagree all you like, but when you start ordering me around it crosses a line.

 

Not all shared experiences are foundations for future cooperation.  They vowed to INDIVIDUALLY seek the Horn.  Mostly for personal glory.  Thats not a basis for future cooperation.  There was no "lets all get back together when this is over" clause.

 

You are right, not all shared experiences are, but Maj was saying that that disparate group was incapable of acting in concert, when clearly they have already.  They shared a common motivation and acted on it in a very similar fashion, they showed up, and they swore. 

 

I'm not so sure that there wasn't a "lets get back together when this is over" clause.  It seems to me like it would be hard for a collection of stories centered around the adventures of hunters would have been easily compiled if there hadn't been some sort of conclusion to the last hunt.  Additionally, I seem to recall there was something that indicated that an end to the hunt could/would be called at some point, but I'm not in a place to get to my books at the moment to try and figure out where that is coming from.

[Charlz Guybon]

I agree with the majority here, the hunters as a group are far too undisciplined to make a cohesive fighting force.

[MikeRiley]

They all went to Illian as competitors. That makes a huge difference. It wasn't like they said "Well, alright guys! Let's sit down and come up with the most likely locations and find this thing. Any of you ever hear a legend about the Eye of the World? You can only get there once and it's real hard to get to it! Nah, it wouldn't be hidden there. Let's check this guy's attic and ask a peddlers if they've seen it."

 

Maybe they'll return to Illian so their deeds could be compiled into the next Great Hunt series of stories the gleemen will tell. I was under the impression word would spread about those stories and they would return to Illian that way. If they return, it'll be one at a time though and they'll go their own way soon after. They don't care about the others, there's no unity. Faile was even staying clear of other hunters in one village. They were competition.

[Roxinos]

Let's see.

 

As far as I can discern, cloglord's main ideas are as follows:

 

1) The Hunters serve a vital purpose in TG.

2) The Hunters will join together at some point to fight in TG.

3) The Hunters are tied to Illian.

 

We must use RAW's statement that we must work within the construct of the books because to do otherwise we could make wild assertions as to every eventuality regardless of likelihood. Speculation is fine, but restricted and logical speculation.

 

1) The Hunters serve a vital purpose in TG.

 

There is no evidence in the books to suggest this.

 

2) The Hunters will join together at some point to fight in TG.

 

The Hunters are not a cohesive force.

 

I will assume they would be of some moderate use in the Last Battle, for the sake of the argument.

 

Lending credence to the idea of them as a single force is that they all joined together in a common goal, to hunt for the Horn.

 

However, they did not join together to take the Oath. They did not look on at their peers with a sense of camaraderie. They each took the Oath, and saw every other Hunter as a competitor in a race.

 

They could, conceivably, be called back to Illian.

 

However, there is no evidence in the books to suggest that such would be the case. The Hunt for the Horn is called, the Hunters take their Oaths, and the Horn is either found, or it's not. If you can provide evidence in the books that Illian would call them back at some point, holding them on their Oath, then I will be satisfied that they might be forced together once more at some point in the future under their Oaths.

 

3) The Hunters are tied to Illian.

 

The Hunt for the Horn is a cultural event. Everyone of every nationality knows of it due to the gleemen's tales about it. The Horn being tied to glory would naturally make such an item something to hunt. There is nothing to suggest the Hunters themselves are not just the backlash of the extent of which the knowledge of the Horn has spread. The Horn, thankfully, is also not tied to a stigma like the Dragon, so there is all reason to hunt it and no reason not to.

 

It is possible that the Hunters are tied to Illian. However, it is not supported as anything but a cultural mindset. If you can find evidence, outside of Moiraine's assertion that the Horn must go to Illian (because that is contentious enough), that the Hunters or the Horn are tied to Illian outside of the cultural mindset, then that will be another point in your favor.

[RobertAlexWillis]

They shared a common motivation and acted on it in a very similar fashion, they showed up, and they swore.

 

Yes, and that common motivation (finding the Horn) would not translate into either the ability or the will to form a cooperative military effort after the Horn is found.  As Birgitte said, "They took the Hunter's Oath to find adventure, and a place in the histories if they can."  (WH prologue)

 

If Jordan wanted to create a post-Hunt compact, he had plenty of opportunity AND literary precedent.  The most obvious ancient literary example to me is the Oath of Tyndareus, in which the suitors vying for Helen's hand in marriage vowed to support the winner, even to the point of military support.  This Oath was cited (by non-Homeric sources like Hesiod) as one of the foundations of the of the alliance supporting Menelaus in the Trojan War.

 

So, there is a semi-historic and certainly literary precedent for such post-contest military cooperation.  And yet, we don't see anything like that Oath of Tyndareus in the story. Despite the fact that you are "not so sure that there wasn't a 'lets get back together when this is over' clause," there is absolutely zero indication of it anywhere in the books.  The fact that there is all this literary precedent and plenty of opportunity, and Jordan didn't make use of it, is indicative in itself.

 

It seems to me like it would be hard for a collection of stories centered around the adventures of hunters would have been easily compiled if there hadn't been some sort of conclusion to the last hunt.  Additionally, I seem to recall there was something that indicated that an end to the hunt could/would be called at some point, but I'm not in a place to get to my books at the moment to try and figure out where that is coming from.

 

The conclusion of all previous Hunts is completely different from this one, because this one is already over.  The Horn has been found, and will be blown at some point during Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Does the Illian Chamber of Commerce and Tourism have some mechanism for ending previous Hunts?  Sure; they just send out proclamations like when they called it.  The Hunters wouldn't have to get back together and report.  The stories of famous adventures do not require a post-Hunt convention to be heard and disseminated.  But honestly, there's no need to call an official end ... its automatically over when 1) all the participants are dead, or 2) the Horn is found.

 

Right down at the bottom of this particular point is the following fact: there is absolutely nothing in the books to suggest any sort of agreement or compact to either meet back up or work together after the Horn is found.  Is it possible to imagine one?  Sure.  We can imagine anything we like.  But there's nothing about it in the books.

[benr]

Mat has not lost his connection to the Horn.  He didn't "die and come back", he never died.

 

tFoH; chapter 54, To Caemlyn:  "There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him.  Mat's smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawledon hi back.  Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man's channeling."

 

He died.

[Charlz Guybon]

Mat has not lost his connection to the Horn.  He didn't "die and come back", he never died.

 

tFoH; chapter 54, To Caemlyn:  "There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him.  Mat's smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawledon hi back.  Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man's channeling."

 

He died.

Balefire means it didn't happen.

[MikeRiley]

Didn't Robert Jordan say something about that? He either confirmed it or said it wasn't the "die and live again" event.. I know I read it somewhere, I just don't remember.

[benr]

Mat has not lost his connection to the Horn.  He didn't "die and come back", he never died.

 

tFoH; chapter 54, To Caemlyn:  "There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him.  Mat's smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawledon hi back.  Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man's channeling."

 

He died.

Balefire means it didn't happen.

 

Then it should have disappeared from my book.  It's still there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Then it should have disappeared from my book.  It's still there.

 

Benr.  The explanation of balefire is in your book.  Its called a paradox.  What it means is that, even though it happened, it didn't actually ever happen.  I know that doesn't make any sense; hence, paradox.  The ultimate effect is, however, that Mat did not lose his connection to the Horn.

[benr]

I know exactly what balefire is, and the (or any) paradox, but it doesn't support my theory  ;D , so I choose to disregard it.  Plus, people actually have memories of it happening; they are stunned to see those killed back alive.

 

Actually, I don't know EXACTLY what balefire is, but I have the general idea.

 

This also leaves Moiraine's admonishment to Rand (you can't heal death) as questionable.  If Rand knows the cause of a death (and it isn't natural causes), he can balefire the perpetrator and bring the person back to life.   

[RobertAlexWillis]

I know exactly what balefire is, and the (or any) paradox, but it doesn't support my theory  ;D  , so I choose to disregard it.

 

Such honesty is admirable ... but I'm not sure its actually allowed here.  ;)

 

Plus, people actually have memories of it happening; they are stunned to see those killed back alive.

 

People's memories don't affect reality ... and people often remember things that never happened, even in real reality.

 

This also leaves Moiraine's admonishment to Rand (you can't heal death) as questionable.  If Rand knows the cause of a death (and it isn't natural causes), he can balefire the perpetrator and bring the person back to life. 

 

Well ... again, thats not technically Healing death, its preventing death.

 

[MikeRiley]

Those memories are part of the reason why balefire is so dangerous. Everybody remembers having done something but it was undone because of something else that was made undone by a lack of the balefired person's presence. Depending on how much that person interacted with people and how far back he was balefired it could really mess things up. If you remember doing something and suddenly you didn't do it, you wouldn't know right away it didn't get done, so you wouldn't do it again.

 

This also leaves Moiraine's admonishment to Rand (you can't heal death) as questionable.  If Rand knows the cause of a death (and it isn't natural causes), he can balefire the perpetrator and bring the person back to life.   

 

This he could only do if he knew the killer right away and the killer was isolated from the world during the time. Then the correct amount of balefire would need to be used to ensure the other person was brought back without going so far back that everything the guy did that day was undone. It would also make him one of the bad guys because there is a system of law in every country (or at least, there was at the start of the series) and the good guys must obey the laws to remain good. By the time a trial was over it would be way too late for the balefire execution. Anything short of that trial would be murder, assuming the guy was caught in the first place.

[benr]

I know exactly what balefire is, and the (or any) paradox, but it doesn't support my theory  ;D  , so I choose to disregard it.

 

Such honesty is admirable ... but I'm not sure its actually allowed here.  ;)

The paradox is that it actually happened, then it didn't.  Actually happened.

 

Plus, people actually have memories of it happening; they are stunned to see those killed back alive.

 

People's memories don't affect reality ... and people often remember things that never happened, even in real reality.

 

But these are collective memories, not individual.  The reason that balefire was banned in the first place is because channelers realized what the effect of its use was; they remembered, and acted on those memories.

 

This also leaves Moiraine's admonishment to Rand (you can't heal death) as questionable.  If Rand knows the cause of a death (and it isn't natural causes), he can balefire the perpetrator and bring the person back to life.   

 

Well ... again, thats not technically Healing death, its preventing death.

If you accept your premise that it never happened, then yes.  If you stubbornly adhere to your own theory, then no.

 

Look, I said at the start that I more than 50% believe your side.  That doesn't make (to me, at least) it impossible that Mat's tie to the horn is gone.  The real question is what does Verin plan to do with the horn?  Is she taking it to Mat, or keeping it with her in case Mat dies at TG, so it can be used in some other way - never knowing that this act may be unnecessary? 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Look, I said at the start that I more than 50% believe your side.  That doesn't make (to me, at least) it impossible that Mat's tie to the horn is gone.  The real question is what does Verin plan to do with the horn?  Is she taking it to Mat, or keeping it with her in case Mat dies at TG, so it can be used in some other way - never knowing that this act may be unnecessary?

 

I would imagine she is planning to get it to Mat, since she is not aware of either the events in Rhuidean or the balefire recycling in Caemlyn.  I can't see any reason why she would be "keeping it with her in case Mat dies at TG" ... that just doesn't make any sense.  It need to be blown before/around/during TG.  Why would she hold it on the sidelines to see what happens?

[benr]

Because I don't know what her motives or goals are; while I'm relatively convinced she is on the side of the Light, I'm not convinced she sees the prophecies as others do, and I think she has developed her own plan for TG.  The only thing I'm convinced of with Verin is that I can't figure out what she is doing.

 

If I'm wrong, and her character plays out as just another spoke in the Wheel, I'll be disappointed.