Jain Farstrider and the Finns(POSSIBLE SPOILERS)

[CUBAREY]

And Jain being a channeler is completely out of the question, JUST because we havent seen any evidence of it in the five minutes hes been with Mat?

 

At the time that the Ail women told their story and the old crazy man visited the stedding, Jain/Noal would have already been a mature man likely at least 40ish. He had traveled all over the known (and some of the unknown) world had been an acomplished warrior, and a writer. There is also a limit to what Ishmael or the Darkone could have done to him at an earlier time (Ishy was in imprisoned in the Bore, as he only gets to be free every 90 years or so, and the Seals had not began to break) so how exactly would they have been able to grant Jain protection from the taint. Only possibility I see is that Jain was a Darkfriend from the beginning and given his protection in a dream (or taken into the World of Dreams by the DO) and given protection from the taint thatway. However, while there is much to suggest that Jain/Noal has been used by the Darkone little if anything indicates that he was a willing agent.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Iron, music, and fire. Mat, Thom, and Jain.

 

I assume you're using the correlation between fire and channeling as the basis for that comparison.  Of course, I could contend that it points to Jain Charin's unique ability to light a torch.  ::)

 

We simply disagree, so, I guess we'll have to leave it at that.  My feelings on the subject have been made clear. 

[Jethro]

And Jain being a channeler is completely out of the question, JUST because we havent seen any evidence of it in the five minutes hes been with Mat?

 

At the time that the Ail women told their story and the old crazy man visited the stedding, Jain/Noal would have already been a mature man likely at least 40ish. He had traveled all over the known (and some of the unknown) world had been an acomplished warrior, and a writer. There is also a limit to what Ishmael or the Darkone could have done to him at an earlier time (Ishy was in imprisoned in the Bore, as he only gets to be free every 90 years or so, and the Seals had not began to break) so how exactly would they have been able to grant Jain protection from the taint. Only possibility I see is that Jain was a Darkfriend from the beginning and given his protection in a dream (or taken into the World of Dreams by the DO) and given protection from the taint thatway. However, while there is much to suggest that Jain/Noal has been used by the Darkone little if anything indicates that he was a willing agent.

 

Who said Ishamael had to be involved in granting people protection from the Taint? Who said he is protected at all? Ishamael used him, he didnt recruit him as far as we know.

 

Quote

Iron, music, and fire. Mat, Thom, and Jain.

 

I assume you're using the correlation between fire and channeling as the basis for that comparison.  Of course, I could contend that it points to Jain Charin's unique ability to light a torch.

 

Then you would be chatting shit since pretty much every character in the book can light a torch. I put that there simply to show that Jain, as third member, might fit the fire just as Mat and Thom fit the iron and music. Since Ishamael has a history of using channelers, and he used Jain, I dont think its any where near as big a stretch as you lot think for Jain to be a channeler. I put the iron, music, fire/Mat, Thom, Naol thing there because I think it another clue that Noal may be able to channel. Of course, I may be wrong, but I refuse to be so ignorant as to think I know everything about the every character already.

 

We simply disagree, so, I guess we'll have to leave it at that.  My feelings on the subject have been made clear.

 

Which is what I said earlier, and you still carried it on

[MikeRiley]

Ishamael has a history of using everybody. Luc and Isam couldn't channel either. If it came out that Farstrider could channel at this late point in the series "Hey guys it's alright, I can channel!" what is to stop Gawyn from turning into a channeler to fight alongside Rand when he finds his mother alive and well? Farstrider is more than capable as he is, whatever we find out about him I doubt it will be that he could channel and kept back the madness for decades/is a darkfriend. Or I should say dreadlord, in that case.

[Majsju]

Ishamael has a history of using everybody. Luc and Isam couldn't channel either. If it came out that Farstrider could channel at this late point in the series "Hey guys it's alright, I can channel!" what is to stop Gawyn from turning into a channeler to fight alongside Rand when he finds his mother alive and well? Farstrider is more than capable as he is, whatever we find out about him I doubt it will be that he could channel and kept back the madness for decades/is a darkfriend. Or I should say dreadlord, in that case.

 

Gawyn as a channeler, that I think most people could by. It would not come completely out of nowhere, since we know for a fact that it runs in his family. And, in his case it would be something that was introduced because it can be relevant for his future, him about to be bonded by Egwene and so.

 

As for Farstrider already being a channeler, ie not just able to learn, but already having started, his face is kinda evidence to the contrary.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Then you would be chatting shit

 

;D Wow, a lot of people are swearing at me lately.  That usually happens in real life when people are pissed at me for being right all the time ...

 

 

[rhadamanthus]

I always pictured the "fire" aspect of the upcoming trip to finnland being aludra's matches.

 

I do think it likely Noal trades himself in for Moiraine.  Matt trades his eye too.  Don't know what Thom will have to do (reach through fire was mentioned in one of the books...)

 

Why would Noal do this?  To make up for whatever he did unwittingly in Ishameal's service.  We'll find out what that was at that time.

[cloglord]

Then you would be chatting shit since pretty much every character in the book can light a torch. I put that there simply to show that Jain, as third member, might fit the fire just as Mat and Thom fit the iron and music. Since Ishamael has a history of using channelers, and he used Jain, I dont think its any where near as big a stretch as you lot think for Jain to be a channeler. I put the iron, music, fire/Mat, Thom, Naol thing there because I think it another clue that Noal may be able to channel. Of course, I may be wrong, but I refuse to be so ignorant as to think I know everything about the every character already.

 

I'm confused as to why Mat would be equated with Iron, when his relationship to gunpowder and FIRE is pretty well established.

[Kaznen]

I always pictured the "fire" aspect of the upcoming trip to finnland being aludra's matches.

 

 

Only if the finns are standing in a pool of gasoline.

[MikeRiley]

I wouldn't think of it as a physical weapon. The snakes might be hypnotized by the music and could just be light sensitive or afraid of fire.

[Kaznen]

but matches are fairly weak when it come to making a bright light, and they don't stay lit long and are easy to blow out.  A candle gives off brighter light.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

As I said before I started this thread in order to stimulate a fresh topic for discussion.  And now six pages later I think I can safely declare, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!!

[Jethro]

Then you would be chatting shit

 

;D Wow, a lot of people are swearing at me lately.  That usually happens in real life when people are pissed at me for being right all the time ...

 

 

 

Care to reply to the rest?

[RobertAlexWillis]

No.  I already said my feelings on this subject were clear.  Your choice of an obscene response didn't change that.  You're just as wrong as you already were.

[CUBAREY]

And Jain being a channeler is completely out of the question, JUST because we havent seen any evidence of it in the five minutes hes been with Mat?

 

At the time that the Ail women told their story and the old crazy man visited the stedding, Jain/Noal would have already been a mature man likely at least 40ish. He had traveled all over the known (and some of the unknown) world had been an acomplished warrior, and a writer. There is also a limit to what Ishmael or the Darkone could have done to him at an earlier time (Ishy was in imprisoned in the Bore, as he only gets to be free every 90 years or so, and the Seals had not began to break) so how exactly would they have been able to grant Jain protection from the taint. Only possibility I see is that Jain was a Darkfriend from the beginning and given his protection in a dream (or taken into the World of Dreams by the DO) and given protection from the taint thatway. However, while there is much to suggest that Jain/Noal has been used by the Darkone little if anything indicates that he was a willing agent.

 

Who said Ishamael had to be involved in granting people protection from the Taint? Who said he is protected at all? Ishamael used him, he didnt recruit him as far as we know.

 

Quote

Iron, music, and fire. Mat, Thom, and Jain.

 

I assume you're using the correlation between fire and channeling as the basis for that comparison.  Of course, I could contend that it points to Jain Charin's unique ability to light a torch.

 

Then you would be chatting shit since pretty much every character in the book can light a torch. I put that there simply to show that Jain, as third member, might fit the fire just as Mat and Thom fit the iron and music. Since Ishamael has a history of using channelers, and he used Jain, I dont think its any where near as big a stretch as you lot think for Jain to be a channeler. I put the iron, music, fire/Mat, Thom, Naol thing there because I think it another clue that Noal may be able to channel. Of course, I may be wrong, but I refuse to be so ignorant as to think I know everything about the every character already.

 

We simply disagree, so, I guess we'll have to leave it at that.  My feelings on the subject have been made clear.

 

Which is what I said earlier, and you still carried it on

 

My comments were directed at the argument that Noal/Jain can Channel. If he can Channel he would have had to have been channeling quite a while, and while he is not in peak physical condition he is not rotting or mad thus he would have had to received the DO's protection from the taint if he was a channeler. Since I think it highly unlikey he got such protection the chances that he can channel seem extremely remote to me.

[Jethro]

Logain isnt rotting or mad either.

[Yllek]

I'm not saying I buy the "Noal is a channeler" theroy, but whose to say that not going mad or experiencing the effects of the taint wasn't one of his original 3 wishes when he met the Finns before? 

 

To refute the theory, however, one can point to the fact that he's an old, narled man who has evidently phyically aged throughout the past 20 or so years, while channelers tend to remain youthful and/or age more slowly. 

 

However, the book about his adventures so widely read and known.  One can also speculate that his adventures must have occurred quite awhile ago, because it is evidently a widely distributed book, yet there is no mechanism to mass produce books so far.  For so many copies to exist, one must question how long ago it was originally written. 

 

Maybee he's a sparker who hasn't been tested or taught yet.  Maybee he was able to channel and was gentled or burned out(thus able to be healed).

 

AND, how are we to know that he himself wrote the book?  It may have been written by someone who accompanied him on his travels and/or heard him tell of his adventures.  Maybee Verin wrote the book... (oh, that was just a joke, but now I'm thinking about the possibility).

 

That's my 2 cents... more questions and no answers.  sorry. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not saying I buy the "Noal is a channeler" theroy, but whose to say that not going mad or experiencing the effects of the taint wasn't one of his original 3 wishes when he met the Finns before?

 

Me.  Because he never met the Eelfinn before.  The doorway to go see them was in Rhuidean, where he had never been, and the only other way in was the Tower of Ghenjei, which he never knew the location of.

 

To refute the theory, however, one can point to the fact that he's an old, narled man who has evidently phyically aged throughout the past 20 or so years, while channelers tend to remain youthful and/or age more slowly.

 

They don't "tend to", they always do.  Hypothetically, if he were immune to the taint, and a channeler, then at his age he would look about 20.

 

However, the book about his adventures so widely read and known.  One can also speculate that his adventures must have occurred quite awhile ago, because it is evidently a widely distributed book, yet there is no mechanism to mass produce books so far.  For so many copies to exist, one must question how long ago it was originally written.

 

It was published in 968 NE, precisely 30 years before the events in The Eye of the World, and 13 years before he disappeared into the Blight and reappeared later at Stedding Shangtai.  (TDR glossary, TEoTW glossary, TEoTW ch 42)

 

Maybee he's a sparker who hasn't been tested or taught yet.

 

If he was a sparker, he would have had to learn or die in his 20's.

 

Maybee he was able to channel and was gentled or burned out(thus able to be healed).

 

Is there any reason, any reason at all in the books to believe this?  Other than "I want Jain to channel"?

 

Logain isnt rotting or mad either.

 

Logain is FAR younger than Jain Charin, who is at a minimum 75 years old.

 

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I'm not saying I buy the "Noal is a channeler" theroy, but whose to say that not going mad or experiencing the effects of the taint wasn't one of his original 3 wishes when he met the Finns before? 

 

I don't think the Finns have the power to simply counteract the effects of the taint.  Remember you have to be very careful what you ask of the Finns.  If he asked to never experience the effects of the taint than they would probably assured him of an early death.  Moreover, the One Power and the Shadow, with which the taint is associated, are two things that the Finns aren't particularly fond of and brining up either of them would probably have landed Jain in hot water.

[Jethro]

I don't think the Finns have the power to simply counteract the effects of the taint.  Remember you have to be very careful what you ask of the Finns.  If he asked to never experience the effects of the taint than they would probably assured him of an early death.  Moreover, the One Power and the Shadow, with which the taint is associated, are two things that the Finns aren't particularly fond of and brining up either of them would probably have landed Jain in hot water.

 

Well the thing that makes me disagree with this is that Rand asked how to cleanse the Taint and they told him.

 

Just to get it out, Im not going to argue over the possibility of Jain being a channeler anymore since it was really only a passing thought that didnt want to leave. I only put things on that I thought might have been a hint towards it, it all started when in EotW Thom said he would tell the tale of how Susa tamed Jain Farstrider. I considered that maybe she was an Aes Sedai, the first known Aes Sedai of this Age to bond a male channeler maybe. But anyway, I dont necessarily want or not want him to channel, was just considering the idea.

 

He knows about the prophecies more than the average Aes Sedai, since he identified Mat. Maybe Susa was Brown, and she bonded him as a Warder (channeler or not) and wrote the book for him. If Verin turned out to be Susa, and Jain was her Warder, I think it'd be a good twist.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well the thing that makes me disagree with this is that Rand asked how to cleanse the Taint and they told him.

 

LOL ... knowing how to do something and being able to do it are two different things.  The Eelfinn can't channel.  Besides which, the method that Rand used would not work on a single person, so the idea that the Eelfinn can counteract the taint is just as absurd as the rest of this line of thought, for the very same reason; it involves making things up for which there are no indications in the books.

 

He knows about the prophecies more than the average Aes Sedai, since he identified Mat. Maybe Susa was Brown, and she bonded him as a Warder (channeler or not) and wrote the book for him. If Verin turned out to be Susa, and Jain was her Warder, I think it'd be a good twist.

 

What has confused me more in this thread than anything else is exactly why you feel a need for Jain Farstrider to be anything more than he is?  He's a badass old guy whose mind has been tampered with by Ishamael, going along on a mission to save a key player in the end of the world; remember, Min saw that Rand would almost certainly fail without Moiraine.  Min thinks its her only false viewing, because she thinks Moiraine is dead, but we know shes not, and one of the guys going to rescue her is affected in some way by the Shadow!  There's no need to add channeling to his abilities, or have Verin turn out to have another identity (which is unlikely for another hundred reasons on its own).

 

And I definitely don't understand why you feel a need to swear at me for pointing out what is actually in the story.  But I imagine that is an entirely separate issue.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I don't think the Finns have the power to simply counteract the effects of the taint.  Remember you have to be very careful what you ask of the Finns.  If he asked to never experience the effects of the taint than they would probably assured him of an early death.  Moreover, the One Power and the Shadow, with which the taint is associated, are two things that the Finns aren't particularly fond of and brining up either of them would probably have landed Jain in hot water.

 

Well the thing that makes me disagree with this is that Rand asked how to cleanse the Taint and they told him.

 

I was under the impression that Rand got the idea for cleansing the Taint from the fact the the two evils in his two wounds opposed one another.  He realized that the evil of Shadar Logoth would repel the evil of the DO in the Taint.  This may or may not have been based on a hint given him by the Finns.  Whatever the case the fact remains that the Finns cannot just snap their fingers and undo the effects of the Taint.  The only way the Finn could have protected Jain from the Taint would be to tell him the same thing they told Rand and then for Jain to go and cleanse the Saiden.  We know this did not happen since the Taint is still very much there when the story begins.

[RobertAlexWillis]

This may or may not have been based on a hint given him by the Finns.

 

Well ... its a little stronger than "may or mat not have been based".  Rand definitely said that riddle he got Herid Fel to help him with was at the root of the idea; the wounds in his side helped him understand how to use what he learned from the riddle.  Fel said that it "stated sound principles in both high philosophy and natural philosophy", so I'm figuring that it gave him the the foundations of the "structure" that he could use to bring the opposing taints into contact (what an awful turn of phrase), and the idea that they would cancel each other out.  The wounds in his side helped him to know that Shadar Logoth was a repository of an opposing taint.

 

Anyway, I'm totally with the rest of what you said.

[Jethro]

What has confused me more in this thread than anything else is exactly why you feel a need for Jain Farstrider to be anything more than he is?  He's a badass old guy whose mind has been tampered with by Ishamael, going along on a mission to save a key player in the end of the world

 

Oh yea thats right we know everything about him dont we.

[CUBAREY]

What has confused me more in this thread than anything else is exactly why you feel a need for Jain Farstrider to be anything more than he is?  He's a badass old guy whose mind has been tampered with by Ishamael, going along on a mission to save a key player in the end of the world

 

Oh yea thats right we know everything about him dont we.

 

No Jethro we do not know everything about him, but enough has been revealed or implied about him that would make your theories about him both unnecessary and rather strange to spring at the reader at the end of a series that has already gone on for 11 books and was supposed to be wrapped up in a 12th.