are these weaves the same?

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

Hey i noticed something while reading LoC. When the wondergirls are milking moghidean for information on new weaves, she says that she knows something called rolling earthfire, but doesn't know the weave. at the end of the book at dumai's wells taim says something like "Asha'man, rolling ring of earth and fire". are these the same things, and if so, how does taim know them?

[RobertAlexWillis]

We don't know if they are the same thing, because we don't know exactly what the girls were asking for, because they didn't know exactly what they were asking for.  They just had a name.

 

If the "rolling ring of earth and fire" is the same as the ancient technique that came down as the name that the girls were asking about, then there are at least two options as to how Taim would know it.

 

1) He just rediscovered it.

 

2) He was trained by one of the Forsaken (probably Ishamael), who knew it from the Age of Legends and so passed it on.

 

I would lean towards #2, but there is not definitive evidence.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

but why would there be two different names for the same weave? it would get things really muddled if there were.

[Osan`gar]

even in the age of legends there was no way for male and female users to compare each others weaves it is more likely that it just has a similar sounding name. moggy might have heard the name and might recognize the effect if she saw it but there is no way of knowing if it is indeed the same weave unless one of the male forsaken were to identify it for us. taim could have learned it from one of the forsaken. however they have shown themselves to exceeding poor/stingy teachers. i dont see them sharing anything that powerful. hell they wont even share little things. taim probably invented it on his own. i could easily be wrong about that but i think that i am probably right.

[RobertAlexWillis]

but why would there be two different names for the same weave? it would get things really muddled if there were.

 

Its been 3000 years, they speak a different language, and the girls were referring to half-remembered rumors.

 

even in the age of legends there was no way for male and female users to compare each others weaves it is more likely that it just has a similar sounding name

 

Thats not true.  Men and women worked together linked all the time, and could see and feel one another's weaves when doing so, just like Rand seeing and weaving saidar at the Cleansing.

 

taim could have learned it from one of the forsaken. however they have shown themselves to exceeding poor/stingy teachers.

 

Well, we've rarely seen them with other channelers.  About the only case where we have seen that is Mesaana and Alviarin, and Mesaana passed some stuff along (Traveling).  If Ishamael/Moridin thought it would help Taim when the time comes to turn on Rand, I could totally see him passing it on.

 

taim probably invented it on his own. i could easily be wrong about that but i think that i am probably right.

 

That is another definite possibility.

 

[Osan`gar]

Thats not true.  Men and women worked together linked all the time, and could see and feel one another's weaves when doing so, just like Rand seeing and weaving saidar at the Cleansing.

 

i absolutely stand corrected....i forgot about that little nugget of wisdom :)

[Jethro]

taim could have learned it from one of the forsaken. however they have shown themselves to exceeding poor/stingy teachers. I dont see them sharing anything that powerful.

 

Asmodean and Moghedien can hardly be counted as real teachers since both were "teaching" their enemies. Asmodean made an excuse that he wasnt a good teacher. Whereas in reality all a channeler has to do to teach someone weaves is channel in front of them. Asmodean was flapping his tongue. Moghedien taught Elayne and Nynaeve enough to satisfy them without giving anything major away. I'd say both Asmodean and Moghedien did well with that.

 

Any Chosen would be able to teach pretty much any Third Ager channeler of the same sex a hell of a lot about the Power, whether they are a good teacher or not, if they really wanted to. If for some insane reason Demandred wanted to teach Rand some weaves, he wouldnt need to be a good teacher, he would just need to do the weave so Rand could see. Taim seems to know more than Rand about the Power even though Rand had Asmodean. That, to me, screams that the Shadow see Taim as an investment, even without taking into account the position they have Taim in; they must be sure he is worth the risk of dangling him under Rands nose.

 

Im about to write my theory on Taims biography, I'll be posting it in the near future. Of course, he might not even be a Darkfriend, but Taims personality along with many other hints point at it. Even if he isnt an official Darkfriend, I have no doubts at all where his loyalties are.

[Kaznen]

The forsaken and LTT don't look at OP as recipes to used when needed.  They look at it as a science.  And they explain it as a science, then get frustrated that their "pupils" don't share their outlook.

 

When Rand asked how Asmo turned the gateway invisible Asmo said it was a matter of bending light not, "you a weave of fire here, here, and here, put some air here, a little spirit like so..."

[mb]

Hey i noticed something while reading LoC. When the wondergirls are milking moghidean for information on new weaves, she says that she knows something called rolling earthfire, but doesn't know the weave. at the end of the book at dumai's wells taim says something like "Asha'man, rolling ring of earth and fire". are these the same things, and if so, how does taim know them?

There might be a chance that they are the same.

How Taim knew?  Discovering/Inventing it on his own (perhaps when he was a false dragon), learning it from someone who discovered it, learning it from someone it was taught to, picking it up from someone that was using it; those 4 would be the possibilities.  The last 3 would not necessarily mean one of the Forsaken.

 

but why would there be two different names for the same weave?

Illusion, Mask of Mirrors, Mirror of Mists; those seem to be the same Talent.

 

[42Bonzo88]

    With Taim, both answers of where he got it could easily be true. I am more inclined to think he came up with it on his own. Just like Rand was using balefire long before he knew what it was, I bet Taim looking for a weapon could have learned it easily on his own.

[Bela]

    With Taim, both answers of where he got it could easily be true. I am more inclined to think he came up with it on his own. Just like Rand was using balefire long before he knew what it was, I bet Taim looking for a weapon could have learned it easily on his own.

 

Rand learned balefire because LTT knew it. Taim doesn't have a separate entity living inside him.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

     With Taim, both answers of where he got it could easily be true. I am more inclined to think he came up with it on his own. Just like Rand was using balefire long before he knew what it was, I bet Taim looking for a weapon could have learned it easily on his own.

 

Rand learned balefire because LTT knew it. Taim doesn't have a separate entity living inside him.

 

Rand used balefire in tDR which is wayyyyyyyyy before any manifestation of Lews Therin.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand is a bad example, because there is the possibility of memory leakage before a conscious manifestation of Lews Therin.

 

But the point is 100% valid, because NYNAEVE used balefire without anyone teaching her.  And there's no one in her head.  (LOL ... that could be taken two ways, now couldn't it?)

 

[Osan`gar]

Rand is a bad example, because there is the possibility of memory leakage before a conscious manifestation of Lews Therin.

 

But the point is 100% valid, because NYNAEVE used balefire without anyone teaching her.  And there's no one in her head.   (LOL ... that could be taken two ways, now couldn't it?)

 

 

she used it without knowing what she did. She and the wonder girls were captured by dark friends shortly after the first appearance of avienda. they were being turned over to three fades. elayne and egwene used air to lift and squeeze them together and nynaeve used bale fire to kill them later wondering what she had done...

[RobertAlexWillis]

she used it without knowing what she did.

 

The point is it is possible to learn things about weaving without having anyone to teach you.  Nynaeve didn't know what it was she had done, but I'll bet she could do it again now.

 

The underlying argument is that it is possible that Taim discovered something on his own that happened to match the description of "rolling ring of earth and fire".  And that is entirely possible.  Egwene did it, both with entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh and with Traveling.  There are all kinds of examples that make that argument plausible. 

 

LOL ... I acknowledge that, and I don't even think thats what really happened!

[balefireruinssteaks]

I doubt Nynaeve could reproduce balefire unless she accidentally produced it again.  She didn't know what she was doing and although she only has to see a thing done once to reproduce it, I don't think she remembers the weaving.  Elayne and Egwene didn't see it either, as Egwene says to herself "I didn't see a thing of it!!!"

 

Also, it's doubtful that Cadsuane would allow Nynaeve to use balefire, let alone figure out how to actually create it.  Remember that Moiraine had to visit Adeleas and Vandene in order to piece together how to make balefire, and Cadsuane seems to know the dangers of using it to an extent that she is adamant about NOT letting people unleash it again.

 

 

As for the original question - they could be the same thing, though we don't really know what the girls were looking for as was said earlier.  What is Milking Tears?  What is Spinning Earthfire?  And some Talents haven't been around for so long that the name got attached to something else; Delving for example was a way to locate ore, but since so very few women possess strength in Earth or Fire, Delving became associated with Healing.  And as some Talents have various names (as said...Illusion/Mask of Mirrors, etc) we really can't be sure until someone actually uses something called Spinning Earthfire.

[Osan`gar]

I doubt Nynaeve could reproduce balefire unless she accidentally produced it again.  She didn't know what she was doing and although she only has to see a thing done once to reproduce it, I don't think she remembers the weaving.  Elayne and Egwene didn't see it either, as Egwene says to herself "I didn't see a thing of it!!!"

 

not true... RJ established early in the series that Nynaeve had an exceptional ability to remember weaves; stating that she only needed to see a weave once to be able to duplicate it. having actually done it she is sure to remember it.

[Jethro]

The forsaken and LTT don't look at OP as recipes to used when needed.  They look at it as a science.  And they explain it as a science, then get frustrated that their "pupils" don't share their outlook.

 

When Rand asked how Asmo turned the gateway invisible Asmo said it was a matter of bending light not, "you a weave of fire here, here, and here, put some air here, a little spirit like so..."

 

This isnt due to Rand and Asmodean thinking differently about the One Power. I think Asmodean was being crafty here. IIRC, Rand asked that after the gateway had closed and whatnot. Rand asks how he did it; he didnt say show me, so Asmodean answered Rand literally, rather than get Rand to channel another gateway so Asmodean could demonstrate it. Not a case of Asmodean being a bad teacher, but a case of Asmodean witholding knowledge, and being crafty enough for Rand not to realise it. Asmodeans PoV shows that he still thinks of the Great Lord as the Great Lord and not the Dark One even though Rand tells him what to say. This shows that he still considered himself as Chosen, meaning he was only loyal to Rand on the surface. Its exactly the same as Moghedien not teaching Ekayne and Nynaeve more than she did.

 

Asmodean isnt a crap teacher. He is a clever prisoner. Remember, he must have been raised as Chosen for a reason. Just because he is a coward, it doesnt mean he is everything else as well. He could have taught Rand a hell of a lot more than he did, he just wormed his way around doing so.