I don't think that Lanfear got stilled/burnt out then healed!!!

[Luckers]

Well I'm completely convinced. I mean, the use of bold AND larger fonts?

 

How could i have been so blind. Actually, genuine blindness might explain it.

 

*wanders off pondering this*

[Mr Ares]

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger .

They are less than half their strength. If they became half their original strength, then most there would still be as strong, and a good many stronger.

You know, I wasn't convinced before, but using big letters has swayed me...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Good thing my hot wings icon was off.

[rhadamanthus]

This is why reading the other threads is a good thing.

 

Respect you elders sonny-boy.  And get off my lawn.  ;D

 

By description Rand did not still Sashelle, Ronaille or Irgain. We have a description of stilling as a knife sharp weave slicing at the source of their channeling, like a shield. What Rand did was crush weaves they were holding in fists of spirit. In terms of effect this is much closer to what a ter'angreal does than stilling--Rand, like ter'angreal that are misused, over-stressed their abilities by placing excessive presure on a weave they were maintaining.

 

It is later phrased that Rand 'stilled' them because he did it to them intentionally, but in terms of method and effect what he did was burn them out.

 

 

 

Is this confirmed anywhere?  As far as I can tell this is just speculation based on Jordan's word choice.  That's really shaky.

[Nightstrike]

Is this confirmed anywhere?  As far as I can tell this is just speculation based on Jordan's word choice.  That's really shaky.

You can read about stilling/burning out in the Guide. It confirms what Luckers said.

[Nightstrike]

This is some of what the Wotmania FAQ has to say about Siuan and Leane. I think it is interesting, and well thought out. I can choose a bigger font size if you've got problem with your eyes.  ;)

 

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

 

-Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

 

Siuan spent her days giving way to women who had jumped at her word a year earlier, smiling and curtsying for nearly every sister in the camp.

 

-The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

Even Aeldene is [above Siuan] and she’s no more than middling.

 

- A Crow of Swords, An Oath

 

Akarrin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all. Only Therva stood even as high as that.

 

-Crossroads of Twilight, Surprises

 

Aiden and Zemaille were weak in the Power.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, A Mark

 

Cabriana closed her mouth without a trace of protest at being over ridden…Cabriana was not very strong at all

 

- New Spring, Entering Home

 

 

These women’s relative weakness is also made apparent in their behaviour and role in the books. For example, making tea for everyone else, sitting quietly while their superiors do the real Aes Sedai work and basically being a dogsbody and doormat for the majority of other sisters. Cabriana is prepared to immediately arrange for alternate rooms for Siuan and Moiraine if they don’t like them. Kumira was purposely picked by Cadsuane, as was Daigian, because she would be ignored by the other sisters, thereby giving Cadsuane a perfect set of spies whom no one would suspect. When Elayne is subjected to a ‘trial’ for getting the Kin in a panic, Careane is placed as her defence for the sole reason that the other sisters know that Careane would not dare speak up against the prosecution. Siuan and Leane have to virtually beg to be allowed to do anything of any importance, and even then the most Siuan can hope for is being a secretary and errand runner for the really important people (Though this may partly be because of their history). Aeldene is on level 15, of middling strength and far enough above Siuan (2 levels) to expect obedience.

 

 

 

[rhadamanthus]

Is this confirmed anywhere?  As far as I can tell this is just speculation based on Jordan's word choice.  That's really shaky.

You can read about stilling/burning out in the Guide. It confirms what Luckers said.

 

Fair enough.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

 

-Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

 

Siuan spent her days giving way to women who had jumped at her word a year earlier, smiling and curtsying for nearly every sister in the camp.

 

-The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

Even Aeldene is [above Siuan] and she’s no more than middling.

 

- A Crow of Swords, An Oath

 

Akarrin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all. Only Therva stood even as high as that.

 

-Crossroads of Twilight, Surprises

 

Aiden and Zemaille were weak in the Power.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, A Mark

 

Cabriana closed her mouth without a trace of protest at being over ridden…Cabriana was not very strong at all

 

- New Spring, Entering Home

 

Every one of these quotes has specific reference to the Aes Sedai Stupidly Overcomplicated Hierarchy System.  Because it is quite convoluted, you shouldn't feel bad that you've failed to understand the implications of the difference between overall strength in the Power, and strength in the Power as it relates to an Aes Sedai's standing within the Moronic Pecking Order.  It is quite possible to lose much more than half of your strength-based standing within the ranks of the Aes Sedai, without losing half of your overall strength in the Power.

 

In a fit of oddness, by selecting this list of quotes, you have done an excellent job of demonstrating the very point you were trying to refute.  Excellent work.

[metria31183]

I'm not touching the "how much strength Siuan and Leane lost" debate.  The same people keep going around and around and none of us is ever going to agree with one another.

 

I will, however, bring up a point about this:

 

Is this confirmed anywhere?  As far as I can tell this is just speculation based on Jordan's word choice.  That's really shaky.

You can read about stilling/burning out in the Guide. It confirms what Luckers said.

 

Fair enough.

 

I read the passage that is being referred to as meaning that Rand crushed their link with saidar, not the weaves they were holding.  I would also like to bring up the point (and this has been mentioned before by others I believe) that the descriptions given of stilling were when Nynaeve and Moghedian were going toe to toe in Tanchico.  What I'm getting at is that we know that men and women use the power in different way to accomplish the same task (i.e. Travelling).  What if the "knife sharp weave" is a woman's way of severing someone and the crushing is a man's way?  Just speculation.  

 

We also know that stilled women can still sense saidar while burned out women can't.  Do we know if any of the woman that lost the ability to channel at Dumai's Wells were no longer able to sense the source at all?

[rhadamanthus]

I'm not touching the "how much strength Siuan and Leane lost" debate.  The same people keep going around and around and none of us is ever going to agree with one another.

 

I will, however, bring up a point about this:

 

Is this confirmed anywhere?  As far as I can tell this is just speculation based on Jordan's word choice.  That's really shaky.

You can read about stilling/burning out in the Guide. It confirms what Luckers said.

 

Fair enough.

 

I read the passage that is being referred to as meaning that Rand crushed their link with saidar, not the weaves they were holding.  I would also like to bring up the point (and this has been mentioned before by others I believe) that the descriptions given of stilling were when Nynaeve and Moghedian were going toe to toe in Tanchico.  What I'm getting at is that we know that men and women use the power in different way to accomplish the same task (i.e. Travelling).  What if the "knife sharp weave" is a woman's way of severing someone and the crushing is a man's way?  Just speculation.  

 

We also know that stilled women can still sense saidar while burned out women can't.  Do we know if any of the woman that lost the ability to channel at Dumai's Wells were no longer able to sense the source at all?

 

We are never told anything about them except that they are stilled.

 

I don't buy Luckers' rationalization but there is really no way to prove his assertion wrong.

[metria31183]

I don't buy Luckers' rationalization but there is really no way to prove his assertion wrong.

 

A lot of Luckers' rationalization (well everybody's really) to me seems to be based on assumptions that he has made, based his interpretation and understanding of the material at hand.  When two people (or more) are arguing about how something is interpreted you basically have all of them saying "Well I think it means this..."  Interpretation is subject to perception and that varies from individual to individual.  It's usually hard to prove someones interpretation of something wrong without direct quotes from the originator of the source material saying "That statement means this."

 

For me, I disagree with a lot of Luckers' theories because I disagree with his interpretations.  I follow his logic moost of the time and it make sense based on his assumptions, I just usually disagree with those assumptions.  I have a lot of respect for Luckers' ability to argue his side logically and his well thought out theories, I just don't buy them.

 

And Luckers, I didn't necessarily mean to pick on you specifically, but you were the example at hand.  No attack, offense, or belittling was intended.

[Nightstrike]

Every one of these quotes has specific reference to the Aes Sedai Stupidly Overcomplicated Hierarchy System.  Because it is quite convoluted, you shouldn't feel bad that you've failed to understand the implications of the difference between overall strength in the Power, and strength in the Power as it relates to an Aes Sedai's standing within the Moronic Pecking Order.

No, I'm not feeling bad about anything. Neither should those that wrote the wotmania FAQ. The quotes does not all reference to any Hierarchy System. Several speak directly of strength. One Power strength, and no other. See my comments of the quotes later in this post.

 

It is quite possible to lose much more than half of your strength-based standing within the ranks of the Aes Sedai, without losing half of your overall strength in the Power.

I don't think it is possible to lose much more than half of your standing if you've just lost, for instance, 15% OP strength. But that is beside the point, because they are speaking of OP strength in these quotes. Not about standing. That's another word, and another meaning.

 

 

In a fit of oddness, by selecting this list of quotes, you have done an excellent job of demonstrating the very point you were trying to refute.  Excellent work.

I can't take credit. It was those that wrote the wotmania FAQ. They really did an excellent job. But they did not demonstrate anything like what you seem to think. See my comments further down...

 

 

 

Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way.

 

-Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

The text isn't to small for you to see, right? The words are "strong", "channel", "Healed", "original strength", "strong" (again), "stronger", "much stronger". Standing isn't mentioned even once.

 

 

Akarrin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all. Only Therva stood even as high as that.

 

-Crossroads of Twilight, Surprises

The words are "strong in the Power".

 

Even Aeldene is [above Siuan] and she’s no more than middling.

 

- A Crow of Swords, An Oath

Referring to strength. A bigger section is as follows:

"You never really think about strength,"she said, half to herself. You're aware of it, whether you're stronger than someone else, but you don't think about it. You just know that she defers to you, or you to her. There was no one stronger than me, before. Noone, since..." Her eyes dropped to her hands, stirring uneasily on her lap. "Sometimes, when Romanda is hammering at me, or Lelaine, it suddenly hits me like a gale. They're so far above me now, I should be holding my tongue until they give me permission to speak. Even Aeldene is, and she is no more than middling.

"I should be holding my tongue", she says. It seems that she doesn't. Why? How is her standing, relative to what is expected from her current strength? Higher or lower? Anyway, not much difference from the situation with her strength. Strength is the determining factor. There are other influences, but they are small compared to the OP strength. The same chapter involves Siuan and Egwene commenting on how others (Aiel) determines their hierarchy, and they comment on how they are not determining it through the same as the AS - STRENGTH!

 

 

The rest of the FAQ is, as I said earlier, well written and well thought out. Those that haven't read it would be recommended to do so.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The text isn't to small for you to see, right? The words are "strong", "channel", "Healed", "original strength", "strong" (again), "stronger", "much stronger". Standing isn't mentioned even once.

 

Because strength in the Power is the primary factor in standing among Aes Sedai, and everyone in the conversation knew it.

 

The words are "strong in the Power".

 

Because strength in the Power is the primary factor in standing among Aes Sedai, and everyone in the conversation knew it.

 

Referring to strength. A bigger section is as follows:

 

Because strength in the Power is the primary factor in standing among Aes Sedai, and everyone in the conversation knew it.

 

I think that you can see the pattern here.  Even if you can't, I think everyone else can.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

The text isn't to small for you to see, right? The words are "strong", "channel", "Healed", "original strength", "strong" (again), "stronger", "much stronger". Standing isn't mentioned even once.

 

 

Because strength in the Power is the primary factor in standing among Aes Sedai, and everyone in the conversation knew it.

Oh, please! They speak of channeling strength.

 

 

The words are "strong in the Power".

 

 

Because strength in the Power is the primary factor in standing among Aes Sedai, and everyone in the conversation knew it.

Oh, please!

 

 

Referring to strength. A bigger section is as follows:

 

Because strength in the Power is the primary factor in standing among Aes Sedai, and everyone in the conversation knew it.

Oh, please!

 

I think that you can see the pattern here.  Even if you can't, I think everyone else can.

It is true that strength is the primary factor in standing among Aes Sedai. It is probably the second and the third factor as well. Somewhere far below that comes other things. How long they were accepted, and so on.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... your counter-argument is "Oh, please!"?

 

Nice.  OK then, thats as far as this can go.  Kudos to you, Nightstrike.

[Nightstrike]

LOL ... your counter-argument is "Oh, please!"?

 

Nice.  OK then, thats as far as this can go.  Kudos to you, Nightstrike.

You're still in kindergarten, right?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thats right, Nightstrike.  I'm a kindergartener.

[Thor]

we just DON't KNOW whether the decrease in strength is a fixed amount, or if it's percentile, or if it even depends on the strength of the person doing the restoring (i don't think of it as healing).  so there is no concrete evidence either way.

 

if the change is percentile, then there is no way that lanfear was stilled, unless you want me to believe that she was 3 times stronger than graendal before.

 

if the change is a fixed amount, then there is a strong possibility that lanfear was stilled.

 

there, end of discussion. get lost.

[Luckers]

This is why reading the other threads is a good thing.

 

Respect you elders sonny-boy.  And get off my lawn.   ;D

 

By description Rand did not still Sashelle, Ronaille or Irgain. We have a description of stilling as a knife sharp weave slicing at the source of their channeling, like a shield. What Rand did was crush weaves they were holding in fists of spirit. In terms of effect this is much closer to what a ter'angreal does than stilling--Rand, like ter'angreal that are misused, over-stressed their abilities by placing excessive presure on a weave they were maintaining.

 

It is later phrased that Rand 'stilled' them because he did it to them intentionally, but in terms of method and effect what he did was burn them out.

 

 

 

Is this confirmed anywhere?  As far as I can tell this is just speculation based on Jordan's word choice.  That's really shaky.

 

As far as you can tell... This is exactly why i instructed people to use the search functions and read the pre-existing threads. This is forum policy people. I knew i should have locked this thread when it began.

 

I get that you were bantering--and i've no problem with that, i love it, actually--but i was in fact in that sentence trying to reinforce that as a moderator i had instructed people in this thread to do the research rather then revisiting it. It is specifically to save us from comments such as these that we ask you to use the search function prior to posting.

 

 

[rhadamanthus]

i was in fact in that sentence trying to reinforce that as a moderator i had instructed people in this thread to do the research rather then revisiting it. It is specifically to save us from comments such as these that we ask you to use the search function prior to posting.

 

Duly noted.

 

In my defense, I would never have thought to search about/for that particular argument because it's ludicrous.  ;) ;D