Governmental progression

[Builder]

Do you guys think that Randland would ever progress beyond the feudal state? Do you think something similar to capitalism and communism would would ever form? Maybe something else like social democracy?

 

Discuss.

[Majsju]

Change is in the nature of society, so yes, new forms of governance will eventually appear. Especially once the constant threat of the Shadow has been removed from the equation, since that has been a major obstacle to natural progress.

[Yllek]

I think that progression is happening right now in the books.  At the end of our own fuedal age, there was an explosion of knowledge and massive amounts of people leaving their farms and migrating to the cities.  In Randland, governments are crumbling and kings are being dethroned; food, shelter and other items cost more and more, prices increasing with supply and demand.  There are hints of an upcomming industrial age.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, the poor fools are walking right down the same path we did ...

 

5th Age: Cylons!

 

LOL ... sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Builder]

We can only hope that the Shadow doesn't destroy enough to leave humanity on a stone age level. If they don't, then I can see that an industrial age can happen, but that would mean that the Shadow would also probably get newer weapons, so the wars would become a lot more interesting...

 

However this is about progression when it comes to how countries are ruled. Up to now they have been ruled by kings and queens, but I hope they start electing their leaders soon.

[Kaznen]

Everyone seems to think that after TG everything will be back to the way they were.

 

The new breaking, which is beginning now, is not going to be like the last one but an upheaval of ideals and way of doing things.  The AoL didn't have kings and lords afterall.

 

I think these changes are what the AS are trying to prevent because it alters the status-quo with them in charge.

[Builder]

Maybe. The Aes Sedai don't want to be side players after practically ruling the world for the past 3000 years.

 

Besides, it would be almost too awesome to have a badass evil empire like the Soviet Union. I know it's not an evil empire, but it was badass nonetheless.

[42Bonzo88]

    In certain places it has already started. I can't remember the nations off hand, but Altara is one with a Queen (figurehead) but the city of Ebou Dar has its systems for trade (unions so to speak). I think its very close just to extend the unions to government. Also the Aiel have more government close to democracy with their chiefs. Good question.

[Kaznen]

With a King, Coucil of Nine, and an Assembly I think Illian is working its way to not needing a monarchy.  It is similar to the US's government.

[Builder]

You think? What are the similarities?

[Mr Ares]

With a King, Coucil of Nine, and an Assembly I think Illian is working its way to not needing a monarchy. It is similar to the US's government.

I think the US Senate should increase the similarity by having a slightly smaller version of the White House built for them.

 

Yes, the poor fools are walking right down the same path we did ...

 

5th Age: Cylons!

So say we all! Just compare Baltar's inner Six to LTT, though, and clearly Rand got the worse deal.

[Luckers]

Well, the Age of Legends was socialist, and Rand has access to LTT's organisational knowledge. Maybe they'll head that way.

[Builder]

I don't think they were pure socialist, but I bet they had socialist elements imbedded into their structure of government.

[Luckers]

Social prestige gained through service to the people? Social power gained the same way? Equal division of labour and resources such as health care and food irrespective of economic standing? Sounds pretty socialist to me.

[Builder]

Ok, so they were socialist, but that doesn't mean Randland will become socialist in the future. It doesn't have to be something that is present today in our world or that existed some time in our world.

[Luckers]

I was merely suggesting that we know Rand has access to all of LTT's practical knowledge in reference to governing, and that the current people respect the Age of Legends as the height of civilisation. It's highly possible these principals could be put into actions.

 

And i mean, has there ever been a more disgusting capitalist society than the Atha'an Miere. Bargaining in the face of total destruction to ensure you get the best deal--punishing your representative because she didn't get enough.

 

Perhaps they could use a little socialism.

[Builder]

I don't know it LTT said everything about how to rule a country in the AoL to Rand. Much of what he says is gibberish, so I'm not completely sure if Rand does know so much. Do you have any links, or can you explain it better?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I was merely suggesting that we know Rand has access to all of LTT's practical knowledge in reference to governing, and that the current people respect the Age of Legends as the height of civilisation. It's highly possible these principals could be put into actions.

 

Given Maslow's hierarchy and the likely condition of the world after Tarmon Gai'don, I doubt that they will be in any condition to operate under the philosophical principles behind a decent application of socialism.

 

But then, things might not be as bad as I envision ...

[Luckers]

I don't know it LTT said everything about how to rule a country in the AoL to Rand. Much of what he says is gibberish, so I'm not completely sure if Rand does know so much. Do you have any links, or can you explain it better?

 

Rand has access to knowledge that LTT has not specifically told him.

 

Given Maslow's hierarchy and the likely condition of the world after Tarmon Gai'don, I doubt that they will be in any condition to operate under the philosophical principles behind a decent application of socialism.

 

But then, things might not be as bad as I envision ...

 

Actually i suspect it depends on the degree of destruction--currently they exist in a state of aristocracy--aristocracy falls when either the working class grows powerful enough to assert itself, or as the point of such devestation that it can no longer sustain itself--the working rule behind aristocracy being limited but sustainable power.

 

If the latter occurs socialist rule could very easily manifest itself--such an event would either cause mass anarchy, or bind people together. Socialism fails so often because without a threat to bind people together they tend to get selfish. And that threat cannot come from their own government, communism proved that. However, once established its a viable system.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually i suspect it depends on the degree of destruction--currently they exist in a state of aristocracy--aristocracy falls when either the working class grows powerful enough to assert itself, or as the point of such devestation that it can no longer sustain itself--the working rule behind aristocracy being limited but sustainable power.

 

If it is as bad as I think it will be, there won't be much of a meaningful governmental structure of ANY kind for at good while ... I expect it to be the Breaking or worse.  So, yes, you're entirely right that it depends on the degree of destruction ... and I envision destruction that reduces just about everyone to the bottom rung of Maslow's hierarchy.  (I admit, there are problems with that idea ... why all the technological advancements, etc, if there isn't going to be anyone around to use them ... )

 

But, to quote myself, "things might not be as bad as I envision ..." in which case, other models would certainly become viable.

 

I'm not sure how involved Rand himself will be in any post Tarmon Gai'don government, though.  Assuming he's around (in whatever body he happens to inhabit) I get the feeling he's going to retire from the world.

[Builder]

So socialism succeeds with a threat? You already have the threat of the Shadow so that means that socialism is possible then, or have I misunderstood something?

 

Rand has to make it real. If he dies without spreading the knowledge to others that survive then it's all gone with Rand.

[Luckers]

Its more than just a threat--it needs it, but it is not the thread that either establishes or runs the system--again communism proved that doesn't work.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its more than just a threat--it needs it, but it is not the thread that either establishes or runs the system--again communism proved that doesn't work.

 

And, within the World of the Wheel, Jordan's rationale according to the Guide was that only removing the bases for selfishness through a total overabundance of resources/services was sufficient to produce the society of the Age of Legends, so, whatever arguments there have been for peaceful socialism in the real world, I don't see it as likely to appear in the post Tarmon Gai'don World of the Wheel ...

 

... I don't have the Guide with me, so I'll post the appropriate quote and reference later.

[Builder]

So capitalism will happen then? It's effective but sometimes crude however still better than the feudal system.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How much would that suck?  As if socialism and capitalism really are the only two options ...

 

-sigh-