has egwene done the nasty?

[notorious-big]

I would never describe it as a comedy, yet nevertheless, I would tell anyone that it is funny as hell, because it was.

 

Amen.

[Serenla]

Sorry its so late...

No problem.

 

Ok, that's one of the comments about the issue. More on it in a second. First, though, what about the many others--what about him attempting to avoid her, and being stopped because she ordered her servants to make sure it didn't happen. What about his anxiousness about the situation.

 

But, alright, he was uncomfortable about not being the one doing the chasing. Fine. He was uncomfortable. Deeply uncomfortable. Because of that he tried to stop her. She continued. He tried again. She used a knife. She used her servants. He was still uncomfortable. He even told someone--she laughed at him. "That was... very bad... of Tylin."

 

Oh, and 'he wasn't the one doing the chasing...?' When did Mat use knives in his 'chasing'. When did he make the help corner his victim. Like a predator. Victim. See what i did there?

 

I'm sorry--where in that was a point in your favour?

First off, Elayne is a bad word I shouldn't type, pick whichever you choose.  Laughing at someone when they are anything from annoyed to distraut is crappy and typical behavior for her. 

I believe my point is that Mat's lack of comfort with the relationship, does not prove rape.  The reason he is uncomfortable is because she is initiating the relationship.  Proven in my opinion by his outburst, "I'm the one who's supposed to do the chasing!"  Backed up throughout the following chapters with thoughts that, everyone would know and that they were making him act like a girl.(aCoS at the end of A Note from the Palace)  I cannot get past Mat saying he's supposed to do the chasing, in an unwanted sexual encounter, why would the victim refer to it as chasing, rather than attacking and why would they think that they should have done it?  And, Yes, a rape victim doesn't want people to know, but first and formost, they don't want it to happen again.  And his comment about acting like a girl, Tylin has reversed the roles and Mat is feeling less than manly.  So whereas yes, it is clear that Mat is uncomfortable with the roles in this relationship, it is by no means clear that the sex was against his wishes.

 

The knives...

  Mat is skilled with the use of knives and fast with his hands; he could have gotten the knives from Tylin at any point after she took the knife from his throat.  He would not have had to hurt her to do so.  She is not as strong as he is or as fast as he is and he is aware of this.  He is even thinks that there may be a possibility of getting it from her when it is at his throat.

 

The servants...

They did not do anything to Mat until after Mat had been in this relationship for months (other than the food, which while annoying is hardly that big of a deal, Mat has money and the city is full of food).  Yes, it was wrong for Tylin to embarrass Mat by having servants bring him to her chambers, but Mat had won forfiets and I'm sure whatever he requested of Tylin embarassed her equally. 

 

And no Mat doesn't chase with knives but he is the one that refered to it as chasing, I don't think he would have done so if that's not how he saw it.

 

The first is not something you say when you are ready to have sex. At least its not something i'd say. i don't know what you're into. The second is squirming. Mat is bound by male pride. He doesn't want to admit that he doesn't want to sleep with her--because for men that is a strike against their verility and pride. A foolish thing, but nonetheless violating it constitues assault.

 

The third should prove it to you--he was so desperate he lied. It was the only recourse open to him. saying he didn't want sex would be socially unacceptable, inventing a girlfriend as a reason to avoid it... I've seen it. I've used it.

 

Simply wanting to be chaste doesn't work for guys. Sorry.

 

First off men can refuse sex if they want to, there is no stigma against that.

 

Yeah, if the girl is fat or ugly.

 

I don't say that to be offensive--i say it to point out a reality. Guys are expected to want sex from women who are hot. There is a whole spectrum of reasons beyond those two superficial ones i listed in which a guy might not want to have sex, but the only reasons recognized are those two.

 

And we are going beyond that--we are not just talking about a guy not wanting to do 'a superhot woman' we are talking about a guy resisting 'a superhot woman'.

 

You know what the current day reaction would be? It would be something along the lines of "You fag!" Trust me, thats more or less what i got. Accurate, but nonetheless offensive.

 

No stigma? Don't be stupid. Men are reinforced with the idea that conquering the female sex is a defining aspect of their manhood--that may be sexist, but its real, and its a double-edged sword.

 

Male rape and sexual abuse is the least reported crime. It's below petty theft--men are more willing to say their watch was stolen than to admit that they were sexually abused. Thats because men are supposed to own sex. Men letting sex be used as a weapon against them is shameful. Which is exactly what we see with Mat.

 

Before I comment, I have to say that I am sorry that people have treated you in such a vile manner.  I have been reading your posts for quite a while, and have seen what an amazing person you are.  You don't deserve it, and I hope you told them where to go and what to do after they got there.  If not I'd be more than happy to do it for you. 

 

Okay so, what do you say if you are with someone, fooling around, the door is unlocked and someone may walk in?  I've never been in this situation, but if I were, I believe I might make mention of someone walking in.  But I do tend toward being a private person... 

 

As for male pride and social pressures, I have two problems with this.  The first being, I don't give in to social pressure.  Never have.  I'm a thirty year old virgin.  At this point even my parents think I'm weird.  Don't care.  I've been called many things including asexual.  Hasn't affected the choices I make.  So what if people think I'm a mushroom?  It doesn't change the way I see myself.  I know that many people would be bothered, but as far as I have interpreted his character, I don't think Mat would be. 

My second problem being that in the Two Rivers, where Mat grew up, the pressure that he faced was that you don't have sex unless you are married.  Rand refused women on those grounds on many of occasions, and tried to insist that Min and Avi married him, because they had sex.  Rand also carried this sentiment with him to every land his has traveled to.  Not all communites have the same expections of people and I don't see evidence that Mat is under any pressure to have sex and I do see evidence that he shouldn't.  So I see no reason why he didn't straight up say get off me you crazy woman, out of pure exasperation without thinking of any consequences.  It would not be the first time he has made his life more difficult by blurting stuff out, and it wouldn't be the last time either.  Yes he squirms, but I see that as a behavior that indicates discomfort, not disguist or any of the many other things that I associate with rape. 

As for lying, why not pick something believable?  She heard his comment to Beslan about chasing girls and now she's going to believe that some girl "held his heart in her hands"?  Mat has told enough lies in his lifetime to know the first rule of getting someone to believe your lie and take it seriously is to keep it believable.  Why not tell her there's a trolloc at the door too? 

For someone about to get raped, he is throwing up rather flimsy shields.  This makes me feel that it wasn't rape. 

 

Again, Mat has never done that sort of chasing. Ever. And Tylin knew he was specifically avoiding her. Re-read the books, his aversion is commented on many times--usually as a joke. Something which offends me even more than Mat's situation. Had it been a woman enduring what Mat endured there would have been hell--instead Elayne laughed.

Mat saying it was chasing is what makes me call it chasing.  Had he refered to it as attacking, we would not be having this discussion. 

Mat knew Tylin's intentions before he even moved into the palace.  He tells Nynaeve and Elayne, that if he asked the same of them they'd box his ears or somesuch.  He moved into the palace anyway because of curiousity about the dice.  No amount of curiousity I could muster (and I have more than is healthy or smart) would get me to agree to live in the same palace as someone who was forcing completely unwanted attentions on me.  So having already decided that Tylin is cuckoo bananas and knows that she wants him, how well is he avoiding her by moving into her palace?

 

And yes Mat was obviously not a happy camper and Elayne is a beeeeeeep. 

 

Yes, he tried to stay away from her, by sneaking around and coming in late, but she can't know if he's intentionally avoiding her or if he is just busy.  As for the food thing, he could get food anywhere in the city anytime he wanted to, and they both knew it.  From Tylin's point of view, he was playing hard to get and Mat has done enough chasing to know this.

 

To Tylin.... Yes, many rapists believe their victim was asking for it.

I won't argue that, but I will say that Mat was aware that she wasn't giving up.  He had a couple of days to find a way to get her to take the hint.  In the end he uses Olver as a shield.  He spent the time and energy to think of that rather than say, sleep amoungst his men or in the servants quarters with Thom and Juilin?  Mat is very good at strategy, proven by his battle plans and his leaving Ebou Dar with Aes Sedai, and yet to protect himself from possible rape, the best strategy he can come up with is to use a ten year old child(don't know his real age but think it's ten) to protect him from a queen?

I couldn't strategize my way out of a paper sack and I know that all you gotta do to get a child to leave is offer cookies.

 

 

It is directly stated several times how completely Mat holds to his word. So no, sorry, he could not have moved back to the Inn.

1. He never had to agree to move to the palace to start with.

2. We never see the wording of the promise, but Elayne's pov says she got him to promise to move in immediately.  There is no indication that he actually promised to stay.  If he was being raped, I think that he would have been sticking completely to the promise, looking for loopholes.  Even if not the Inn, the palace is big, he could sleep with his men or with Thom and Juilin or he could have hidden in a cupboard and never been found.  I'd go to that extreme to avoid rape and I imagine many others would as well.  Rape is by definition something to be avoided at all costs.

 

I would agree that many predators out there utilize a persons beliefs to control and use them. Why that lessens that Tylin used Mat's social bindings to corner him, i don't know. I hold the same contempt for boys who use the 'loosing virginity' thing on girls in the current age--but at least those girls have social options to avoid doing what they don't want. Mat did not.

 

To admit why he was uncomfortable was to deny the very nature of being a man. A man should want to sleep with a sexually attractive woman. That he did not want to was not something he had the tools to deal with. Girls do, they have the whole 'need to be chaste' thing. Mat had nothing of the sort.

I feel that giving in to social pressures is a choice.  To say "well everyone else is doing it" doesn't mean that it was right or okay.  This goes the same way when the action hurts only yourself.  A social pressure is not the same as a threat to your life, ridicule can be endured.  (I was the kid in school that even the nerds and dorks made fun of, I survived.)  I am aware that in some instances people use violence against those who are different, but I see no evidence in the books to support that Mat refusing sex would have resorted in violence from his peers or society in general. 

I also don't see any evidence in the books to support the idea of this particular society thinking men have to have sex with any attractive woman who comes along.  I do see evidence that indicates the opposite.  (Although I am aware that many of today's societies do have this stigma and used to be very close to a guy that had a very long relationship with a woman when he doesn't like woman like that, for this very reason.)

 

So, if a man wanted to have sex with you, and shot the bedpost, you'd consider the threat over?

If the gun was not in his hand and I was stronger and faster than him?  Yes. 

 

Of course Mat could have beaten Tylin in a fight, but your forgetting his high jinks about hurting women. This was not a game between equals, Mat has preconceptions about women which bind him. Tylin knew that, she used it.

I had a male friend that I used to play fight with.  He could subdue me in a few seconds without hurting me, everytime.  It is not necessary to hurt someone to stop them from hurting you.  If the person subding is a lot stronger, faster and more skilled, the subdueee is even less likely to be hurt. 

Mat has never been one to want to hurt a woman, but his promise to himself about never doing so again, was a result of Tylin's death(he felt guilty about it) and ordering Ryma(is that her name?) shot in the back.  These had not occured yet. 

 

And Tylin being a queen did not intimidate Mat. Tylin used her position as queen to enable her control of Mat. Tylin being a woman--and the type of woman she was--intimidated Mat. Which is part of the problem.

Tylin was the epitomy of the pushy noble that Mat loves to iritate.  Her coming on to him threw him off some, but not enough that he felt any need to accomodate her.

 

She tried to KILL herself because of that. Galad killed Valda because of it. How you could thing that would be a point in your favour....

 

But, ok, your point--she agreed--because she was socially required to. Becuase she was within his power. Because what she needed to do relied on him, and that was the price he set.

 

You are correct. It is a very similar situation.  Mat was socially required to be up for sex. He was within Tylin's power, and he needed--for seperate and important reasons--to remain in the Tarasin palace.

 

She tried to kill herself to keep the Seanchan from using her to gain Andor, not because of Valda.  She tried to use sex to get an army to get her country back.  She felt that it was worth it, even though it made her hate herself.  She chose to do it, because it seemed like her best option.  Woman make choices like this all the time.  Are the men who pay for sex raping the woman who have it with them to feed their children?  No.  Does it mean that I agree with sex for hire?  NO.  And as a side note, I'm glad Valda bit it, he made her think that he would help Morgasae, when he wouldn't and used her under false pretences. 

No where does Tylin say that she will kick Mat out of the palace if he doesn't have sex with her.  And I doubt that she would have kicked him out of the palace and risked having nine Aes Sedai mad at her. 

That's bull. Mat has accepted many unwanted fates because it is nessasary. That's actually the complete theme of his character.

No, Mat is not a Perrin or a Rand, he fights his fate at almost every turn. He tried to get away from the battles and they found him.  He ran away from the WT as soon as he could. He wanted to leave the Stone and the Waste and Cairhien.  The only reason he didn't is because of the Pattern.  In the end he does what is right, but he tries to figure a way out of it, run from it, hide from it and refuse it. 

[Shard]

Admittly Bruce punching out the Gimp WAS funny but I still have nightmares about the gangster being raped, that was part was NOT funny even if my sister did find it funny.  ::)

[Gentled Ben]

Would it have been funny if Zeke had made him squeal like a pig, like in Deliverance? "Say 'WEEE! WEEE!' Say it, Boy!"  :D

[Shard]

That scene is even MORE disturbing. *shudder* I never knew people found rape scenes amusing.  :o

[Serenla]

That scene is even MORE disturbing. *shudder* I never knew people found rape scenes amusing.  :o

 

Me either, which is why I have taken part in this lengthy debate.  The idea that someone can view something as rape and laugh makes my brain hurt.

[Gentled Ben]

And yet so many readers laughed at Mat's rape.

[Serenla]

And yet so many readers laughed at Mat's rape.

Which is why I have spent weeks and a lot of time trying to get them to see why it wasn't a rape...

 

If people see rape as something that can be funny, I feel that they may be missing how truely awful it is. 

[Gentled Ben]

And I feel that some people might argue for weeks because it is easier for them than to accept that they laughed at a rape, which is why I quit arguing the point.

[Serenla]

And I feel that some people might argue for weeks because it is easier for them than to accept that they laughed at a rape, which is why I quit arguing the point.

I can understand that.  But I still believe that my points are valid and logical rather than grasping attempts to avoid the idea of having laughed at something offensive.  And I can agree to respectfully disagree with you.   

[Gentled Ben]

Oh for sure; I'm not trying to disrespect you. You've actually earned my respect in this thread, even though I think you are entirely incorrect.  ;D

[Serenla]

Oh for sure; I'm not trying to disrespect you. You've actually earned my respect in this thread, even though I think you are entirely incorrect.  ;D

 

Thanks, you too.  And I didn't think you were, I just wanted to make it obvious that I can respect anyone's opinion even though it is totally wrong...  ;)

[Shard]

And yet so many readers laughed at Mat's rape.

Which is why I have spent weeks and a lot of time trying to get them to see why it wasn't a rape...

 

If people see rape as something that can be funny, I feel that they may be missing how truely awful it is. 

 

Well I didn't laugh at it even before this whole discussion revealed to me the acts that people felt Tylin was doing to Mat. aCoS did make me feel a lot of pity for Mat.

 

The thought of man rape is a scary one, I'm sure for women seeing or reading a woman being raped is just as bad. I suppose my sister found the Pulp fiction rape funny because up till then you really didn't see much or any of that. For me it was an eye opener in that Men can be raped, so it wasn't funny but SCARY.

 

So we'd really have to know what sex acts were performed to be honest. I know that's graphic but if they did missionary then the rape thing just becomes rather weak as opposed to if Tylin used a toy on him.

[Serenla]

Well I didn't laugh at it even before this whole discussion revealed to me the acts that people felt Tylin was doing to Mat. aCoS did make me feel a lot of pity for Mat.

 

The thought of man rape is a scary one, I'm sure for women seeing or reading a woman being raped is just as bad. I suppose my sister found the Pulp fiction rape funny because up till then you really didn't see much or any of that. For me it was an eye opener in that Men can be raped, so it wasn't funny but SCARY.

 

So we'd really have to know what sex acts were performed to be honest. I know that's graphic but if they did missionary then the rape thing just becomes rather weak as opposed to if Tylin used a toy on him.

I asked my sister about pulp Fiction since I won't watch it.  She said that the reason it has comedic value is because of the shock value and the fact that the difference between the emotion that is expected and the emotion that is displaced is so huge, while the characters complaints are things that make sense for a person to think.  She used the shooting of some guy and the brains they had to clean up as an example.  Or at least that is what I took from what she said.  I'd just assume never watch it or anything like it as just the evening news disturbs me more than enough...

As for having all the blanks filled in, we would run out of things to discuss. I might be treating this as too much of a logic puzzle, but for me, looking at all available facts and determining how to interpret the event is what makes these books the greatest in the whole world.  No matter how many times I read them, they still give me food for thought. 

[Eleint]

So we'd really have to know what sex acts were performed to be honest. I know that's graphic but if they did missionary then the rape thing just becomes rather weak as opposed to if Tylin used a toy on him.

 

The issue isn't the sex act itself.  The issue is the power conveyed over him which led to the sex act.  Rape is about the abuse of power; it's a power fantasy more than merely a sex act.

 

As well, people who are raped often experience orgasm.  Arousal due to physical stimulation does not negate a rape in any way, shape, or form.

[Shard]

The sex act IS the power, if he is doing missionary then he is in control of her. If however she is on top, SHE is in control.

 

If I remember correctly from the scene NO ONE was finding it funny. Not the gangster being raped nor Bruce Willis.

[vainebekonnes]

First off men can refuse sex if they want to, there is no stigma against that.

 

I have to call BS on that.  I've LIVED the stigma.  I've done the whole "I've got a girlfriend" who didn't exist thing.  I've been insulted and emasculated repeatedly for remaining chaste until I met my wife.  But wait, all that must be a figment of my imagination, because there is NOOO stigma against men refusing sex.

[Mr Ares]

Simply wanting to be chaste doesn't work for guys. Sorry.

It's worked well enough for me. Plus, Mat is from a culture in which not having sex until you're married is the norm.

 

And we are going beyond that--we are not just talking about a guy not wanting to do 'a superhot woman' we are talking about a guy resisting 'a superhot woman'.

 

You know what the current day reaction would be?

Considering these books are not set in our present, irrelevant is what it would be. Refusing sex because you aren't interested is something that is perfectly acceptable.

[MikeRiley]

This is Mat we're talking about so that present day stuff does apply. Everybody believes him to be some big woman chaser who has no morals. The social norm in the books do not apply to him. Had he refused her he would have offended and made an enemy of her, and he nearly did in that first encounter. Declining her when he supposedly screws anything with a pulse would go over real well in the palace. Imagine what would have happened if he made an enemy of the ruler of the city he was in, at the least he would be unable to go to the palace so he could protect the girls.

 

Tylin wouldn't have tried what she did on some other guy visiting the palace. She knew Mat's supposed reputation from the girl gossip talking with the Aes Sedai. There would have been no end of trouble if he said no. If he managed to get the key from her and unlock the door the guards would have been on him before he was half through the palace. He knew that. She knew that. Nobles don't take being insulted all that well.

 

It's not just Elayne who found it humorous, by the way. It's everybody else with him too. They wouldn't have found it funny if Matrim was Matrina.

 

Back on that stigma subject, to claim it's not real is just plain ignorant. Even the media wouldn't stop talking about it for days after the last teacher screwed a student. When it's a woman having sex with a student, the student is high-fived. When it's the other way around, it's just disgusting to people. Both are still counted as rape but one is seen as less serious purely because of the sex of the victim. The boy who nails a teacher is considered more of a man for it. The girl who was nailed by a teacher is considered a victim, plain and simple. It's because the idea of sex is different for both sides and men are expected to get it. To run from it is to tell everybody you're weaker or not into women.

[benr]

 

It's not just Elayne who found it humorous, by the way. It's everybody else with him too. They wouldn't have found it funny if Matrim was Matrina.

 

 

 

I agree with most of what you have said, but not 100% with this.  If "Matrina" had been a woman of "loose morals", aggressively seeking conjugal relations with every hunk, she would have developed a reputation.  If she then was uncomfortable with the advances of a man who had some form of power over her, and complained of her position, she would have run into a certain amount of disbelief in her refusal, and a certain amount of "Really?"  There would probably have been more of a sympathetic reaction than with Mat, but not 100%.

 

And Mat's reputation, while earned by his demeanor, is just that - a reputation.  His actual dealings with females do seem to show respect for their wishes.  No, to Mat, means no.

[MikeRiley]

I'll give you that about the Matrina thing.

 

I was just about to edit my post because I recalled something else. Sex after marriage is not the norm at all in Ebou Dar - the only place that really matters with this discussion given the location. Taking a pretty is a common thing and that's how Tylin treats Mat. Mat didn't get a choice and even Beslan the Ebou Dari admits his mom was taking it a little far. It might only be considered borderline in the books, it would be rape flat out if it happened here and now.

[Casco]

At least to most of the men, not to womenfolk though. I still feel that women have a hard time to sexual abuse to a man under treath can be rape, at least when i read treads about it. "As long as you get erection, you WANT it" and things like that.

[Luckers]

Well I wasn't raised that way Luckers, I didn't think my ultimate goal in high school was to loose my virginity and no it has NOTHING to do with religon. I wasn't refering to fat or ugly, but then Beauty is also in the eye of the beholder anyways.

 

It doesn't matter how you were raised, it matters what the social perception is. In fact thats entirely the point. You may not have wanted have regaurded losing your virginity as your goal--alot of guys don't--but your expected to. You cannot deny that social boys and men are supposed to desire and seek out sex.

 

The simple fact that you felt it nessasary to point out that your position had "NOTHING" to do with religion shows that you are aware of this. You were feeling the presure to clarrify that it was your own descision and desire not to have sex. Don't you see the significance of that? By feeling the need to make that clear you show that men are not expected to not want sex unless some other influence is involved--Religion, sexuality, pre-existing relationship.

 

I agree completely with you that its not an accurate perception. That was in fact my point.

 

I guess what it comes down to is Mat going with the sex, as to avoid physical damage of trying to resist. It's still bad of Tylin to do this whether you call it Rape or not.

 

Physical damage? What of the emotional damage? That's an incredibly black and white perception shard, and i disagree with it utterly.

 

Things are more complex than just 'did he do it because he feared being physically hurt? No? Then he wanted it.'

 

I believe my point is that Mat's lack of comfort with the relationship, does not prove rape.  The reason he is uncomfortable is because she is initiating the relationship.  Proven in my opinion by his outburst, "I'm the one who's supposed to do the chasing!"

 

Even were that true--and I believe the issues involved are far more complex than that one comment--the fact remains that he was uncomfortable and tried to stop her. No means no. Simple as that. The reasons are irrelevant.

 

I mean its like the old arguments about spousal rape. The woman married the man, presumably she was sexually attracted to him--yet if she was uncomfortable and said no we recognise him continuing and forcing her into sexual action as rape.

 

, Yes, a rape victim doesn't want people to know, but first and formost, they don't want it to happen again.

 

That's actually completely false. Rape victims wanting to avoid people knowing is the reason long term rape situations occur. These situations are always based around a power system--a parent raping a child, a teacher raping a student--a queen raping a subject.

 

This is especially heightened amongst cases of male rape.

 

I'm guessing you don't have a background in psychology, but if you want i can provide you with a number of case studies on the subject. You could probably even wikipedia this though. Statistics on reports of male rape are not secret.

 

And his comment about acting like a girl, Tylin has reversed the roles and Mat is feeling less than manly.  So whereas yes, it is clear that Mat is uncomfortable with the roles in this relationship, it is by no means clear that the sex was against his wishes.

 

The manipulation of the power structure between them does not show Mat is being raped. I agree with that completely. It shows that she is a predator--which combined with her ignoring him saying no makes it rape. But on its own you are quite correct.

 

The knives...

 Mat is skilled with the use of knives and fast with his hands; he could have gotten the knives from Tylin at any point after she took the knife from his throat.  He would not have had to hurt her to do so.  She is not as strong as he is or as fast as he is and he is aware of this.  He is even thinks that there may be a possibility of getting it from her when it is at his throat.

 

Which of course ignores the complexity of the situation. Aside from fighting a woman, something Mat has shown himself to have problems with, she was Queen. Mat himself states the issues.

 

She laid a hand flat on his chest, back-heeled him into a high-backed chair, and plumped herself down on his lap. Between her and the chair arms, he was trapped. Oh, he could have picked her up and set her on her feet quite easily. Except that she did have that bloody big dagger in her belt, and he doubted his manhandling her would be as acceptable to her as her manhandling him seemed to be. This was Ebou Dar, after all, where a woman killing a man was justified until proven otherwise.'He could have picked her up easily, except....

 

He could have picked her up easily--except...

 

That he could have physically defeated her does not mean he had the power to stop her. And I'm sorry but no court in the western world would throw out a rape case involving a weapon just because the victim did not fight back. No matter the skills of the victim.

 

The servants...

They did not do anything to Mat until after Mat had been in this relationship for months (other than the food, which while annoying is hardly that big of a deal, Mat has money and the city is full of food).  Yes, it was wrong for Tylin to embarrass Mat by having servants bring him to her chambers, but Mat had won forfiets and I'm sure whatever he requested of Tylin embarassed her equally.  

 

What? Tylin uses the servants from the first.

 

d no Mat doesn't chase with knives but he is the one that refered to it as chasing, I don't think he would have done so if that's not how he saw it.

 

Mat also doesn't force women who don't want him. He doesn't even 'chase' them. Comparing Mat's method with Tylin's will leave you short every time.

 

Before I comment, I have to say that I am sorry that people have treated you in such a vile manner.  I have been reading your posts for quite a while, and have seen what an amazing person you are.  You don't deserve it, and I hope you told them where to go and what to do after they got there.  If not I'd be more than happy to do it for you.

 

I'm fairly vocal in my own right, but i thank your for the sentiment.

 

Okay so, what do you say if you are with someone, fooling around, the door is unlocked and someone may walk in?  I've never been in this situation, but if I were, I believe I might make mention of someone walking in.  But I do tend toward being a private person...  

 

I'm not sure i understand what you are asking?

 

As for male pride and social pressures, I have two problems with this.  The first being, I don't give in to social pressure.  Never have.  I'm a thirty year old virgin.  At this point even my parents think I'm weird.  Don't care.  I've been called many things including asexual.  Hasn't affected the choices I make.  So what if people think I'm a mushroom?  It doesn't change the way I see myself.  I know that many people would be bothered, but as far as I have interpreted his character, I don't think Mat would be.  

 

Ok... what about these quotes...

 

They smiled and told him he must not spoil his appetite if he was to eat with the Queen. They knew. Every last one of them knew! His own blushes as much as anything else drove him back to his rooms, bitterly regretting that odorous fish at midday.

 

At first light, he sneaked out of his rooms arid found another of the palace servants he remembered, a balding fellow named Madic, with a smug, self-satisfied air and a shy twist to his mouth that said he was not satisfied at all. A man who could be bought. Though the startled look that flashed across his square face, and the smirk he barely bothered to hide, said he knew exactly why Mat was slipping gold into his hand. Blood and ashes! How many people knew what Tylin was up to?

 

He shows directly that peoples opinions matter to him--and he also shows directly that his concern is that people know that Tylin is using him--you may say that it is because she is using him other than him using her--and you may be right. Changes nothing. The point in this is that he can't make a big deal out of it because he fears other peole opinions of him.

 

He says no--and cannot enforce that no because he cannot let people learn he is being victimized. Simple as that. And if you don't accept him saying no, here's the quotes.

 

He had seen fishmongers in the city selling peculiar creatures called squid and octopus—Ebou Dari actually ate the things!—but they had nothing on Tylin. The woman possessed ten hands. He thrashed about, vainly trying to fend her off, and she laughed softly. Between kisses, he breathlessly protested that someone might walk in, and she just chuckled. He babbled his respect for her crown, and she chortled. He claimed betrothal to a girl back home who held his heart in her hands. She really laughed at that.

 

Tell me thats not a man saying no. Tell me if it were a woman you would consider the man laughing at her attempts to fob him off as sex play.

 

My second problem being that in the Two Rivers, where Mat grew up, the pressure that he faced was that you don't have sex unless you are married.  Rand refused women on those grounds on many of occasions, and tried to insist that Min and Avi married him, because they had sex.  Rand also carried this sentiment with him to every land his has traveled to.  Not all communites have the same expections of people and I don't see evidence that Mat is under any pressure to have sex and I do see evidence that he shouldn't.  So I see no reason why he didn't straight up say get off me you crazy woman, out of pure exasperation without thinking of any consequences.  It would not be the first time he has made his life more difficult by blurting stuff out, and it wouldn't be the last time either.  Yes he squirms, but I see that as a behavior that indicates discomfort, not disguist or any of the many other things that I associate with rape.  

 

Firstly, him not being socially driven to have sex is not the same as him being socially driven to own sex. The reason he didn't straight up say 'get off me you crazy bitch' is because she was queen. He did however say 'get off me' in every polite way he had availliable to him. She ignored him, and used power games to enforce that. He couldn't openly fight her because of the social stigma involved--hence she won.

 

He squirms? That really how you want to phrase that? Refer to the quote above. Refer to this "He was safe now, anyway. Tylin would not batter down the door, after all. Would she? Not even most birds could get in through the wrought-iron arabesques screening the balconies. Besides, she would need a long ladder to reach that high. And men to carry it. Unless she climbed down from the roof on a rope. Or she could.... The night passed, his stomach rumbled, the sun rose, and he never closed his eyes or had a decent thought."

 

He cannot sleep from fear of her. Even when he knows she really can't reach him, the fear holds him. And you phrase it as squirming?

 

As for lying, why not pick something believable?  She heard his comment to Beslan about chasing girls and now she's going to believe that some girl "held his heart in her hands"?  Mat has told enough lies in his lifetime to know the first rule of getting someone to believe your lie and take it seriously is to keep it believable.  Why not tell her there's a trolloc at the door too?  

For someone about to get raped, he is throwing up rather flimsy shields.  This makes me feel that it wasn't rape.

 

Yes, because people are completely rational when being raped. He threw out everything he could think of in a random splurge. That shows his utter desperation to escape the situation.

 

Mat saying it was chasing is what makes me call it chasing.  Had he refered to it as attacking, we would not be having this discussion.  

Mat knew Tylin's intentions before he even moved into the palace.  He tells Nynaeve and Elayne, that if he asked the same of them they'd box his ears or somesuch.  He moved into the palace anyway because of curiousity about the dice.  No amount of curiousity I could muster (and I have more than is healthy or smart) would get me to agree to live in the same palace as someone who was forcing completely unwanted attentions on me.  So having already decided that Tylin is cuckoo bananas and knows that she wants him, how well is he avoiding her by moving into her palace?

 

And yes Mat was obviously not a happy camper and Elayne is a beeeeeeep.  

 

If you re-read my statement, you'll find that i stated Mat never did THAT sort of chasing. You can call it chasing all you want. Presumably a rapist must chase their victim.

 

I won't argue that, but I will say that Mat was aware that she wasn't giving up.  He had a couple of days to find a way to get her to take the hint.  In the end he uses Olver as a shield.  He spent the time and energy to think of that rather than say, sleep amoungst his men or in the servants quarters with Thom and Juilin?  Mat is very good at strategy, proven by his battle plans and his leaving Ebou Dar with Aes Sedai, and yet to protect himself from possible rape, the best strategy he can come up with is to use a ten year old child(don't know his real age but think it's ten) to protect him from a queen?

I couldn't strategize my way out of a paper sack and I know that all you gotta do to get a child to leave is offer cookies.

 

All of those would openly admit his situation to the people around him, which, as i've said, wasn't an option. Bringing in Olver as a shield is the only viable option he had.

 

1. He never had to agree to move to the palace to start with.

2. We never see the wording of the promise, but Elayne's pov says she got him to promise to move in immediately.  There is no indication that he actually promised to stay.  If he was being raped, I think that he would have been sticking completely to the promise, looking for loopholes.  Even if not the Inn, the palace is big, he could sleep with his men or with Thom and Juilin or he could have hidden in a cupboard and never been found.  I'd go to that extreme to avoid rape and I imagine many others would as well.  Rape is by definition something to be avoided at all costs.

 

1. Doesn't matter--he agreed, and his word bound him.

 

2. That promise combines with the promise Mat made to protect them. I'm sorry, the degree of prevarication you describe is not within Mat's character.

 

Him hiding within the palace is something i've already addressed--but your comment about the definition of rape. Please--rape is often facilitated through the rapist using the victims belief that they have no other options. Thats exactly what Mat experiences.

 

I feel that giving in to social pressures is a choice.  To say "well everyone else is doing it" doesn't mean that it was right or okay.

 

We are not speaking of peer presure, we are speaking of social presure. It's the difference between the presure to smoke, and the presure to dress as a boy and play sports when you really want to wear a dress and play with dolls.

 

This goes the same way when the action hurts only yourself.  A social pressure is not the same as a threat to your life, ridicule can be endured.  (I was the kid in school that even the nerds and dorks made fun of, I survived.)  I am aware that in some instances people use violence against those who are different, but I see no evidence in the books to support that Mat refusing sex would have resorted in violence from his peers or society in general.  

 

The fact is that social presures can be a threat to life. These are presures placed on the very things we use to define ourselves. And if you don't think that threat is viable go look at how many gay kids commit suicide.

 

We are not speaking of Mat standing up to people disaproving of him, we are speaking of his fear that people will disaprove of him. They are very different things. Standing up to bullies, and surviving them when you deep down agree with them are different things. You think people mocking you for liking books, or world of warcraft, or whatever compares to this? The very things that defined who he was were under attack.

 

I also don't see any evidence in the books to support the idea of this particular society thinking men have to have sex with any attractive woman who comes along.  I do see evidence that indicates the opposite.  (Although I am aware that many of today's societies do have this stigma and used to be very close to a guy that had a very long relationship with a woman when he doesn't like woman like that, for this very reason.)

 

Its not that they should have sex with any attractive woman, but that they should own sex. But its still more complex--to mat men are the ones who do the chasing--within his mind once sex is initiated he SHOULD want it, but thats becuase in his mind sex is only initiated when he wants it. He has no preparation to deal with what happens when he isn't.

 

Doesn't change the fact that in his own fumbled way he made utterly clear to Tylin that he didn't want to have sex with her, and she continued--using force.

 

Quote

So, if a man wanted to have sex with you, and shot the bedpost, you'd consider the threat over?

If the gun was not in his hand and I was stronger and faster than him?  Yes.  

 

I'm sorry, but I doubt that. Oh, you might resist him, throw him off--we've already covered why Mat couldn't do that--but that you'd consider that the threat was over--that you'd go from resisting to accepting just because he shot the bedpost--no.

 

You'd fight him off.

 

But then, maybe your into that. Mat, however, was not.

 

I had a male friend that I used to play fight with.  He could subdue me in a few seconds without hurting me, everytime.  It is not necessary to hurt someone to stop them from hurting you.  If the person subding is a lot stronger, faster and more skilled, the subdueee is even less likely to be hurt.  

Mat has never been one to want to hurt a woman, but his promise to himself about never doing so again, was a result of Tylin's death(he felt guilty about it) and ordering Ryma(is that her name?) shot in the back.  These had not occured yet.

 

Actually the promise not to hurt women results from the darkfriend woman Thom killed in tDR.  And the name was Renna. Ryma was the Yellow Sister Egwene spoke to at Falme--she was given the name Pura by the Seanchan and is completely broken.

 

Not that he didn't feel guilt about Tylin. I don't see the relevance. Many rape victims have felt guilt about the fall of their rapists--specifically in situations where the rapist had authority over them--fathers, bosses... queens.

 

As for the rest--again, the quote i stated above shows mats thoughts. He could have stopped her, but she was queen.

 

No, Mat is not a Perrin or a Rand, he fights his fate at almost every turn. He tried to get away from the battles and they found him.  He ran away from the WT as soon as he could. He wanted to leave the Stone and the Waste and Cairhien.  The only reason he didn't is because of the Pattern.  In the end he does what is right, but he tries to figure a way out of it, run from it, hide from it and refuse it.

 

 

That was a part of his arc--have you seen him fighting his fate in recent books? He no longer struggles like he did in any of those situations. In fact he hasn't since tFoH.

 

Which is why I have spent weeks and a lot of time trying to get them to see why it wasn't a rape...

 

Like how a husband raping his wife wasn't rape? Like how a lord raping a peasant wasn't rape.

 

If people see rape as something that can be funny, I feel that they may be missing how truely awful it is.  

 

I agree. Utterly. Consider the full reality of that.

 

It's worked well enough for me. Plus, Mat is from a culture in which not having sex until you're married is the norm.

 

Really? You havn't felt presured at all to have sex? Resisting is all well and fine, but your really saying you've not felt the presure?

 

Somehow i doubt that. As for Mat--he did try to reisist. She ignored it. He wasn't able to make a big deal out of it because men are supposed to own sex, but it happened. And thats true for today too, which is why male-rape is the least reported crime.

 

People keep saying "Well, I would, therefore..." Maybe you would. Mat didn't--he shows that. Doesn't make it consensual.

 

Considering these books are not set in our present, irrelevant is what it would be. Refusing sex because you aren't interested is something that is perfectly acceptable.

 

He did refuse--we arn't speaking of that. Making a big deal out of Tylin not accepting his refusal is...

 

The expectation of male sexual dominance is as rampant in that world as it is now--indeed, if anything it is more of an issue then than it is now. So, sorry Ares, but it is relevant. I agree there are differences, but they are differences in degrees, not realities.

[Shard]

Well Luckers then that is the biggest double standard hypocrisy out there. First men are slandered for being sex-fiends and now were ridiculed if we don't want it? Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

I think that's the problem with those of us having trouble seeing Mat as raped, there seems to be little damaging effects. As Serelna pointed out RJ has gone through great efforts to make realistic characters like with Morgase and Egwene's traumatic experiences. So why would RJ then not do the same for Mat?

[Luckers]

It is actually a complete double standard. And a massive problem. It's quite disturbing actually--despite feminisms desires the idea of women being the weaker sex still exists--which is actually mostly an aid, as creepy as that sounds. They can admit to being victimized, even if it hurts them. Men, as the inferred stronger sex, cannot.

 

As for little damaging effects. Witness his emotional turmoil--i quoted above the comments about how he couldn't sleep, and was paranoid about others noticing.

 

Are you looking for him to break down? Scrub himself till he bleeds whilst crying in the shower?

 

He made it clear that he did not want to have sex with Tylin. She ignored him, and used her power to push the issue. Thats an end of game. By all legal standards that is rape. It is not a violent rape, it will not leave him a hermit--but it is rape.

 

If he were a woman we would not be having this discussion, we would not be needing the quantify the damage done before a sexual assault could be called rape. And that disturbs me.

 

Mat was sexually assaulted. That involved full penetration. By law that is rape.