Verin; An Objective Analysis.

[mb]

Head of Brown Ajah is Jesse Bilal; I take of White Tower.  The one for the rebels, not sure who; it seems doubtfully Verin.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its definitely not Verin.  Verin hasn't been to Salidar; she went from the Two Rivers to Caemlyn, from Caemlyn to Dumai's Wells, and has been with Rand ever since (until her mysterious current escapade, that is).

 

Horn me!  ;D

[Charlz Fel]

The insight that Verin is deliberately provoking Rand to distrust Aes Sedai is brilliant.  However, I find it questionable that Verrin's goal is to keep Rand (and Perrin, etc.) free of Aes Sedai mismanagement.  This seems more like Luckers, as well as others on this board, projecting their own views onto Verin.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... it really seems to match the results ... Verin has never seemed overly impressed with her Sisters, or the Tower in general, for that matter.  She has used Tower etiquette to her own ends, but you never really get the feel (or at least, I don't) that she would be really sad if she couldn't be in the Tower any more.

 

For Verin, I think Rand and company represent the ultimate case study in how reality mends itself.  Not to mention the only real option to preserve every interesting specimen in existence.  :P

[benr]

I have always thought that Verin wanted to be sure that Rand was at TG because her 70 yr project has shown her that for whatever she wants to happen, he needs to be there (aside from the prophesies, etc.).  Not very enlightening, but I really have no idea what she is trying to accomplish.  Again, if it is just the prophecies, I'll be disappointed - she seems to really have a separate agenda.

[Shard]

You know going with the whole Verin distrusts her fellow sisters it suddenly makes sense why she kept the Dream ring and those notes tucked away from the other Aes Sedai. Yeah it does seem like Verin is an Aes Sedai with her own agenda, but then many Aes Sedai have their own Agenda.

[benr]

But very few of them have as much of a "world" view as Verin.  Caddy; to some extent Moiraine - although she developed that after teaming up with Rand.  Her original goal was to get the DR to the White Tower.  Verin was prepared with her plans before she met the DR.  It doesn't seem that Caddy's goals and Verin's necessarily coincide, but Verin has determined that at least Caddy's don't conflict with hers.  The fact that she was willing to kill Caddy really shocked me; I know that the oath says that they won't use the OP as a weapon, but still...

[CUBAREY]

I have always thought that Verin wanted to be sure that Rand was at TG because her 70 yr project has shown her that for whatever she wants to happen, he needs to be there (aside from the prophesies, etc.).  Not very enlightening, but I really have no idea what she is trying to accomplish.  Again, if it is just the prophecies, I'll be disappointed - she seems to really have a separate agenda.

 

Her project is not 70 years, what we know is that her last mistake was 70 years ago.

 

The fact that she was willing to kill Caddy really shocked me; I know that the oath says that they won't use the OP as a weapon, but still...

 

Why. Morraine herself states in the first book that she would kill the Emond Fielder's if she thought they would otherwise go to the Dark. They are playing for all the marbles and disposing of those that get in the way is  acceptible from their view even if the person is technically not a darkfriend. Remember when Rand takes the sword that isn't and becomes head of Tear, Morraine councils him to abandon his attempt to help the Cairhernan's who are starving and attack Illiad(sp?). The end result is the only important thing, they know that many innocents will die, they are only concerned that not all innocents die or fall under the Darkone's power.

[Luckers]

The insight that Verin is deliberately provoking Rand to distrust Aes Sedai is brilliant.  However, I find it questionable that Verrin's goal is to keep Rand (and Perrin, etc.) free of Aes Sedai mismanagement.  This seems more like Luckers, as well as others on this board, projecting their own views onto Verin.

 

I'm a bit confused by this--i have no theory that involves Verin supporting the lads in this way. I stated it merely because it is sustained--secifically Verin in one hand drives Aes Sedai into offending Rand, yet the other compels them into supporting him. The only viable explanation of that is that she wants them to support him, but not control him.

 

I'm not 'projecting' anything. This has no theoretical value to me, no sperate agenda. I stated it only because of the relative implications of her actions.

 

 

[Charlz Fel]

The insight that Verin is deliberately provoking Rand to distrust Aes Sedai is brilliant.  However, I find it questionable that Verrin's goal is to keep Rand (and Perrin, etc.) free of Aes Sedai mismanagement.  This seems more like Luckers, as well as others on this board, projecting their own views onto Verin.

 

I'm a bit confused by this--i have no theory that involves Verin supporting the lads in this way. I stated it merely because it is sustained--secifically Verin in one hand drives Aes Sedai into offending Rand, yet the other compels them into supporting him. The only viable explanation of that is that she wants them to support him, but not control him.

 

I'm not 'projecting' anything. This has no theoretical value to me, no sperate agenda. I stated it only because of the relative implications of her actions.

 

 

 

Perhaps I misattributed, but the impression I have is that your proposal here (or a version that some people seem to be supporting) is that Verin realizes the fallacy of Aes Sedai manipulation in general and thinks the ta'veren will do better without being manipulated/controlled by Aes Sedai.  I find this particular version unlikely, especially from an Aes Sedai as manipulative as Verin.  And I was not implying a separate agenda--projecting one's own views (and thoughts, feelings, etc.) onto another is a very common mistake; I probably do it frequently.

 

I do think that your conclusion may be slightly stronger than the evidence warrants, strictly speaking.  That Verin is trying to make Rand distrust Aes Sedai--all Aes Sedai (especially those close to him, including herself)--is warranted; too many of her words and actions have this effect to doubt it, I think.  That she wants certain Aes Sedai to support Rand is obvious, but I think this may be more of a tool than any sort of broad goal.  Her purpose here could even be, in part, to make the Tower as a whole distrust Rand; otherwise, she would have left out the Red sisters, and probably a few others to reduce suspicion.  Even Egwene, on learning that Red sisters swore fealty to Rand, wondered if he had Compelled them.

 

I repeat that your insight that Verin is making Rand distrust Aes Sedai, even interfering with those who might control him, is brilliant.  But I doubt that she sees this goal as part of a larger goal to have Aes Sedai support Rand without controlling him.  The distrust she incites and the oaths she compels are, I believe, separate pieces in a larger puzzle.  But again, even seeing one of those pieces was a great achievement.

 

 

 

[benr]

 

 

The fact that she was willing to kill Caddy really shocked me; I know that the oath says that they won't use the OP as a weapon, but still...

 

Why. Morraine herself states in the first book that she would kill the Emond Fielder's if she thought they would otherwise go to the Dark. They are playing for all the marbles and disposing of those that get in the way is  acceptible from their view even if the person is technically not a darkfriend. Remember when Rand takes the sword that isn't and becomes head of Tear, Morraine councils him to abandon his attempt to help the Cairhernan's who are starving and attack Illiad(sp?). The end result is the only important thing, they know that many innocents will die, they are only concerned that not all innocents die or fall under the Darkone's power.

 

Yeah, I knew that would get misinterpreted after I got to work and thought a bit about my post.  What I meant was that, on my initial read thru, when I got to that point I was sure Caddy was at least pro-Rand as far as battling the DO, and I only had vague misgivings about Verin.  So my initial reaction was that Hey!  You two are on the same side.  Where did this move to murder Caddy come from?  And it was totally planned.  It took me a while to reconcile that, probably, Verin wasn't sure of Caddy's true ajah, or maybe Verin wasn't what I thought she was.  If Verin was willing to murder Caddy, and knew she wasn't dark, then I'm questioning her true motives again.  I know that the AS will fight for the light; I was taken aback that the Light didn't seem to be in question.

[Luckers]

Perhaps I misattributed, but the impression I have is that your proposal here (or a version that some people seem to be supporting) is that Verin realizes the fallacy of Aes Sedai manipulation in general and thinks the ta'veren will do better without being manipulated/controlled by Aes Sedai.  I find this particular version unlikely, especially from an Aes Sedai as manipulative as Verin.  And I was not implying a separate agenda--projecting one's own views (and thoughts, feelings, etc.) onto another is a very common mistake; I probably do it frequently.

 

Yeah i get that--but I'm sure you can see why suggesting that i was sustaining some personal agenda might come across a bit offensive. You should have simply said you didn't think my conclusion was as supported in the texts as i thought it was--no issue with that, and its an excellent opening to a discussion..

 

To be clear, im not angry or anything--well no, perhaps i was in the last response, but i get what you said and its all cool, im only saying this so you understand why my last response was a bit aggressive. Does that make sense? Lol.

 

I do think that your conclusion may be slightly stronger than the evidence warrants, strictly speaking.  That Verin is trying to make Rand distrust Aes Sedai--all Aes Sedai (especially those close to him, including herself)--is warranted; too many of her words and actions have this effect to doubt it, I think.  That she wants certain Aes Sedai to support Rand is obvious, but I think this may be more of a tool than any sort of broad goal.  Her purpose here could even be, in part, to make the Tower as a whole distrust Rand; otherwise, she would have left out the Red sisters, and probably a few others to reduce suspicion.  Even Egwene, on learning that Red sisters swore fealty to Rand, wondered if he had Compelled them.

 

Yet why consider poisoning Cadsuane, and stopping when she learns Cadsuane's intentions to help Rand? Like, genuinely help him, not just help him by making him do what she wants, which is the standard Aes Sedai definition of help.

 

I might be able to buy she has some seperate agenda in which compelling the Aes Sedai into swearing to him was meant to goad others into anger--buy it as viable, mind. I'd still probably think mine was a more likely explanation--except for that one act. She states that 'it is good to be sure of Cadsuane at last' which shows she approves of Cadsuane's stated objective (as if refraining from killing her did not). She directly approves of helping Rand--which castes all those other events in the light of helping Rand, as opposed to potentionally goading some third party. Its all about Rand.

 

 

[Dark Justice]

Verin, as far as we know, has the most knowledge about the prophecies and more. One thing I came over yesterday while reading the prolouge to Path of Daggers was this:

 

She still had a task. Somehow, she had to keep young Rand alive until it was time for him to die.

 

So. Does she KNOW that he has to die? Or is she just assuming? The entire "blood on the rocks" prophecy does not say he has to die. Does she know something we dont?

 

I am one of those that "needs" to see Rand die in the end. Its too sugarsweet to see him live happily ever after with his 3 wives...

[RobertAlexWillis]

The entire "blood on the rocks" prophecy does not say he has to die.

 

I know a lot of readers posting in Dragonmount think that, but pretty much everyone in Randland is sure that the Dragon has to bite it at Shayol Ghul, one way or the other.

 

Verin probably has sources of info we don't know about, or at least, that we don't know the contents of (like Corianin Nedeal's notes).  But she doesn't need those to know that Rand needs to die.

[Shard]

It would really be nice if we could read the entire Karathon Cycle ourselves.

[Dark Justice]

I have a feeling the prophecies (all the prophecies that is "known" at least) will be releaced in the encyclopedia. (that one is coming after everything is done, right??)

[RobertAlexWillis]

I have a feeling RJ never wrote out the entire Karaethon Cycle, much less every other prophecy.  He knew which ones he wanted to use, which hints he wanted to give.  There would be no need for him to compose the rest.

 

What we have, and what we get in the text of TGS, book 14, and AMoL, is all we're likely to get, or need.

[seasnake]

On the contrary, I'd be surprised if he hadn't wrote most of it out.  It's hard to make stuff fit neatly if it hasn't been written out ahead of time.  The best stories often have TONS of stuff that is back story, peripheral, or simply not necessary to the body of the plot but help understand where everything came from, how it interacts and why.  My thoughts are that the prophecies are written down and he references them when he needs them, he doesn't write the story and then make up a fitting prophecy. 

 

J.R.R. Tolkien had the Silmarillion material but he only referenced certain events in Lord of the Rings.  Nevertheless he knew where his characters came from, what Sauron was, where Aragorn's family was, why the Elves were fading, how they got there, where the Dwarves came in.  He had it all written down, but he didn't explain it all, he just had his characters act on it and reference it from time to time.  You know Aragorn has a deep love of Arwen, but all the other stuff (much of it that made it into the movie) is not ever explained in the story, it just shows up in the decisions he makes and things he does.

 

Given the depth of WoT I think it is safe to assume RJ did something similar.

[RobertAlexWillis]

On the contrary, I'd be surprised if he hadn't wrote most of it out.  It's hard to make stuff fit neatly if it hasn't been written out ahead of time.

 

Writing out the predictions that needed to be fulfilled to keep track of foreshadowing?  Absolutely.  Composing a couple hundred pages of poetry?  Not as likely.

 

Its not impossible, of course.  I'd just be very surprised if there is a thick folder labeled "Karaethon Cycle" with a few thousand stanzas of fully composed poetry.

 

J.R.R. Tolkien had the Silmarillion material but he only referenced certain events in Lord of the Rings.

 

Tolkien is a convenient, but extreme example.  In truth, the entire LoTR and Silmarillion started as a framework for his study of language and mythology.  He actually invented two complete Elven languages, with dialects, and new alphabets, along with pieces of about 10 others.  That degree of backstory development is not either common or necessary.  Its useful, of course, but horribly time consuming.

 

Jordan published over 3.4 million words in his WOT series (thats not including whatever percentage is his in the potential million more coming from Sanderson).  By comparison, the entire LoTR is less than half a million.  Most of the work that Tolkien spent on his backstory world development, Jordan spent on the things he actually published.

 

There is no doubt that Jordan's backstory information is extensive and contains a great deal not elaborated in the books in order to maintain continuity.  But there would not be a need to compose the entire Karaethon Cycle.  He could have done so, of course; its his time.  But I don't think it likely.  What I can say with some confidence is that it would not have been necessary.

[seasnake]

RAW,

 

Tolkien is the author to whom Jordan gets the most comparison than any other I know, both for world building and other themes.  Jordan was working on this project for years and was a pretty soulful guy, I wouldn't be surprised if he started outlining his books by writing out the prophecies and cycle first and then began to fit a story to fulfill these prophecies and cycle. 

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I was wondering wht does it mean when Rand read Moraine's letter and it said he could trust Elaida and it named some other AS but Verin's name was not named. Is that foreshadowing perhaps?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Tolkien is the author to whom Jordan gets the most comparison than any other I know, both for world building and other themes.  Jordan was working on this project for years and was a pretty soulful guy, I wouldn't be surprised if he started outlining his books by writing out the prophecies and cycle first and then began to fit a story to fulfill these prophecies and cycle.

 

OK, seasnake.  I don't agree, but this isn't a point I'm willing to fight over.  ;)

 

This strikes me, however, as the type of question that might get a straight answer at JordanCon.  The existence of a complete copy of the Karaethon Cycle within Jordan's notes wouldn't be a spoiler or anything, so Harriet or Brandon might just say "yea" or "nay".  Why not hop over to this here thread,  http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,41487.0.html and propose a question about whether or not Jordan wrote it all out?

 

Then we could actually settle a question, instead of everyone (including me!) just spouting our opinions, like every other thread in here.  ;D

 

I was wondering wht does it mean when Rand read Moraine's letter and it said he could trust Elaida and it named some other AS but Verin's name was not named. Is that foreshadowing perhaps?

 

Moiraine's letter said to "Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin".  Elaida is not mentioned ... I suspect Moiraine guessed that Elaida was a puppet, given Alviarin's letter to Rand.  And Verin is specifically mentioned.  She was underscoring her earlier statement to "Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai."  Verin and Alviarin represented the extremes of trustworthiness to her; Verin as the one Rand was more likely to trust, Alviarin as the least.

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

O you are so rite, I had a moment...

[seasnake]

Not a bad idea, RAW, who knows, maybe they'll answer?

 

It's not a fight, RAW, I was just trying to explain why I tend to think there IS such a document, and you have rightfully explained why you'd be surprised if there was.  BTW, I note that you never said he did not do it, and I can't say he did.  We are both limited to a combination of guesswork and conclusions.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's not a fight, RAW, I was just trying to explain why I tend to think there IS such a document, and you have rightfully explained why you'd be surprised if there was.  BTW, I note that you never said he did not do it, and I can't say he did.  We are both limited to a combination of guesswork and conclusions.

 

I don't think we're actually allowed to be that reasonable here, seasnake.  ;)