Verin; An Objective Analysis.

[mb]

She showed Rand how to use the Portal Stones.

 

Actually, that was Selene (Lanfear alias).

 

no, i see it as lanfear basically saying: "here's a portal stone, do something"

while Verin was more of: "here's a portal stone, this button takes you here, this button does that, and that big red button sets off the nukes"

 

Yet Rand's understanding about the Portal Stones came more from Lanfear.

From Shadow Rising Chapter 22:

"You leave Callandor behind and bring this," Moiraine murmured. "You seem to have considerable knowledge of using Portal Stones. More than I would have thought."

"Verin told me a good bit." he [Rand] said.  Verin had, but it had been Lanfear who first explained them to him. He had known her as Selene, then...

 

[Gentled Ben]

That only says that his first understanding of them came from Lanfear, not his greater understanding. It actually says that he learned a good bit from Verin, while it does not say how much he learned from Lanfear at all. However, we can refer to the text, read the corresponding passages, and see that Verin gave him more instruction in them than Lanfear did, so we don't really need that particular quote to tell us that Verin taught him more, although she did, and it implies as much. What I took from the books as I read them was pretty much what ROB said.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lanfear first explained to him what the theory of what the Portal Stones did.  Verin explained some specific points about how to use them.  The two women imparted different kinds of information, and Lanfear's was first, sequentially.  I don't think that is particularly significant from a learning standpoint; RJ put it in Rand's POV to demonstrate how he was keeping his contact with the Forsaken secret from Moiraine.

 

For Rand, both of these things were probably useful from a learning perspective.  He had shown a remarkable ability to put theory into practice.  Whether that is due to his native intelligence, latent memories from Lews Therin, ta'veren twistings of chance, or some other circumstance (or, most likely, a combination of the above), Lanfear's theoretical information would have been as useful to him in many ways as Verin's immediately functional information.

 

Of course, all that has no bearing on Verin's motives ...

[balefireruinssteaks]

I guess i'm just repeating, but I agree that Verin is never someone I look as your standard Aes Sedai.  I think she holds as much Aes Sedai propriety as she is able, but she is a woman with agendas beyond the Tower and the Brown Ajah.  It's why she never turned in the dream ter'angreal, and then gave it to a novice (who would soon be Accepted, but still!!).  It's why she did a great many things.

 

I've always been fascinated by the scene where she gives Egwene the ter'angreal but not the notes and wondered what Verin did in Tel'aran'rhiod to get her scar.  I also wonder how much she is aware of Dreaming since she feels qualified to write Corianin off as a mediocre Dreamer. 

 

And if Verin DID lie, but is not Black Ajah, I wonder if she just released herself from the Three Oaths on her own so that she could accomplish more for her own plans.  (this seems unlikely to me, but not outside of her character). 

 

I consider her a "good guy", but agree she has her own agendas.

[Majsju]

And if Verin DID lie, but is not Black Ajah, I wonder if she just released herself from the Three Oaths on her own so that she could accomplish more for her own plans.  (this seems unlikely to me, but not outside of her character). 

 

 

 

We know for a fact that she is held by at least one Oath, since she has the Ageless look.

[Luckers]

Actually its at least two oaths--RJ stated it takes more than one oath to cause the Agelessness.

[Majsju]

I do not remember that, so link, please.

[balefireruinssteaks]

It is the lesser known and often not spoken about Fourth Oath to not eat donuts at twilight that gives the Ageless appearance.  We just haven't heard about it because none of the Aes Sedai can bring themselves to speak of it.  Aes Sedai take this Oath around their fifth or sixth year after gaining the shawl.

[benr]

Sorry - in a rush, and not at my books:  where did Verin get her knowledge of the Portal Stones? 

[Luckers]

I do not remember that, so link, please.

 

It was at a booksinging, i can't find the report--though the wotmania FAQ lists it in their thread too, if that helps assuage your doubts.

 

The fact that the ageless look is a result of swearing three oaths (not just an oath) has been confirmed by Jordan at booksignings.

 

However we don't really need RJ's comment anyway, its stated in the books too, by Sammael in LoC.

 

So she had come back to it after all. She truly must think he was simple. He decided to plant a small barb of his own. "Do [the Ayyad] bind themselves like criminals?"

 

A look of puzzlement flashed across her face and was hastily suppressed. Plainly she had not reasoned it out; there was no reason she should. Few people in their time had ever committed one violent crime, let alone more.

 

 

[Shard]

What if it wasn't Verin who lied/twisted the truth but Moraine when they accused her of sending Verin? I can't remember her exact wordage in this matter if someone could post it that would be great. :)

 

I also agree with Lucker's conclusion, that has been the problem with just about all the Aes Sedai, including the wonder girls. They need to help Rand but NOT control Rand. When it is stated that the greatest works were done when both sides of the Power were used they mean it in Equal terms. Not one being subservant(sp) to the other.

[Luckers]

No, it was Verin.

[Gentled Ben]

I can't remember her exact wordage in this matter if someone could post it that would be great. :)

I disagree; we've argued this into the ground already; let it die.  :P

[Shard]

With that attitude we might as well stop ALL posting until we get the final book, afterall we've discussed EVERYTHING into the ground so let's let the whole forum die.  :P

[Luckers]

With all due respect Shard, there are two other threads within the first two pages on this board directly dealing with this issue. You trying to raise it here makes Gentled Ben's frustration very viable.

 

As i suggest to all posters--and, more to the point, as is forum policy--look up what you want to ask before asking it. If there arn't recent or detailed threads on the subject, then go for it. But look first.

[Gentled Ben]

Luckers is right; it's the timing, not the subject matter. I'm sorry if I offended you. Try reading and posting in "Questions about Moiraine" and "Did Verin Lie?" You'll find it discussed at great length in both of those threads.  ;)

[Shard]

Then what is the point of this thread? Are we judging what side Verin is on? Are we merely just seeing what her motivations for her actions are?

 

I know this subject and others have been discussed in great length I merely thought I was adding to a current discussion not derailing or side tracking it.

[Luckers]

Actually the point of this thread was to get away from such discussion--did she lie, didn't she, we don't know. Can't know, based on the information we have. The point of this thread was to step past that, and look at what her intentions were, whether she lied or not. What did she achieve? Why would she have wanted to do that.

 

I know you didn't mean ill Shard--and if your interested in that topic there is a thread called "Questions about Moiraine" and another called "Did Verin Lie" in which its discussed at length. You must forgive posters though--over the past week that question has been bantered back and forth with no it--its actually why i made this thread, because i was so frustrated with the question. Lol. So yes, please forgive us. There are others who arn't though, so have fun.

[Shard]

*nods* I understand that better now, though I did have a point that was in agreement with your original conclusion. That they Aes Sedai in general do try to Control Rand in order to help him. I just wondered if Moraine was considered in that same way and may have come up with a response to do just that. It seems though that both Verin and Moraine came to the conclusion respectivly to let Rand go on his path without direct manipulation or interference.

 

It does seem Verin's motivation is to tied the Aes Sedai who have sworn to him more tightly to Rand.

[Luckers]

Moiraine began like that, i think, but got past it. Even then though she was still trying to influence him, she was just more aware of her own relative right to control him--by which i mean she had no expectation that he should do what she said simply because she was Aes Sedai.

 

I actually have no problem with Aes Sedai trying to get Rand to do what they want--quite frequently they are correct. It's the expectation that they should be in charge for no other reason that they are Aes Sedai that i have a problem with. If they have a specific informed reason to think him wrong, then they should go for it--which is why i have no problem with Cadsuane.

 

It should not be forgotten that for all their stupidity Aes Sedai are strong willed women of above average intelligence and with an extensive education. It just has to be properly tempered.

[Gentled Ben]

Then what is the point of this thread?...Are we merely just seeing what her motivations for her actions are?

In this thread, yes. Luckers has developed some ideas about what he perceives part of Verin's agenda to be, and he created this thread so that we could discuss those ideas. It just so happens that there hasn't really been much discussion, as so far, all of the posters have simply agreed with his assertions with little or nothing to add to them.  :D

[Luckers]

Which is awful, just awful.

 

;D

[Shard]

*heh* I guess we could make double triple sure that Verin isn't BA if you wanted to do so. Cause your really right there was no need to lie, Moraine or Verin, Ingtar would have accepted Verin into the party even if she showed up babbling none sense.

 

 

 

[Osan`gar]

i have no basis for this but do you think that verin is forming her own coalition whereby she and various other sisters under her control may be aiding TDR in remaining free of the typically arrogant Aes Sedai manipulation ??? remember she has been using compulsion on the sisters held captive by the aiel. also what are the chances that verin is the head of the brown ajah ???

[RobertAlexWillis]

I personally don't think that Verin either has or is building a coalition of followers (even an informal one like Cadsuane).  I think that she has some information (possibly from Corianin Nedeal's notes, possibly from some other source) about a few specific things that need to happen, and makes sure that she is in place to help them along.  Otherwise, I think she just gives willing support to Rand in any way she can.  Not in the sense that she always agrees with him, but in the sense that she always does what she thinks is in the best interest of him achieving victory at Tarmon Gai'don, which in many cases means keeping him free of Aes Sedai mismanagement.