The first dragon.

[nnokwoodeye]

Not to mention that it would probably mean that she deliberately allowed moggy to tear her from tar.

 

[Mr Ares]

Wrong. Birgitte remembers many lives, not just the last 3-4.

Well I didn't count, sorry. Anyway regardless of how many life they remember, we know they don't remember all of them since birgitte don't remember the last third age.

Doesn't she? Evidence for this?

Well, I don't think she actually said that, but it just seems obvious. If she would have remembered the last third age that would mean that she would actually know the future. She would have too much knowledge for it to be "fair" (even if she did forgot most of it)

Obvious is relative. That conclusion doesn't seem to be at all obvious to me, given something RJ said about variations in the Pattern between turnings - that an Age in one turning will look the same from a distance as the same Age in a different turning. Look closer and differences become apparent. The closer you look, the more different it will seem, until you get right up close and think it doesn't look at all alike. So whatever Birgitte remembers would only be of limited use, if any. She might be aware of the general Pattern of an Age, but that is of no use, and she might remember stuff she did in the last Third Age, but the situations she was reacting to are not present in this one. If we had the books of the last Third Age to compare with this one, we could expect to see massive differences between them, between the players, the pieces, the positions. So she wouldn't know about Mogy tearing her, because it didn't happen last time.

[nnokwoodeye]

You mean RJ could have written an entirely new series on the next third age without us feeling like we read that story before?

 

I wonder how it would have gone. What would have been different? I wonder if he planned that in the middle of the series he said he wanted to write after WOT, there would be a shocking reveal that it's actually the next third age, and that we have been in future randland all along.

 

Oh great, now I am depressed  :(

 

[Luckers]

If there were any dragons before Lews Therin, the books do not identify it/them.

The books tell that Lews Therin was reborn many times, yet not always as the Dragon.  It could have been that Ishamael fought with each of them.

 

That depends on what you mean by the Dragon--if you mean that the soul has been born for other purposes than being the Lights Champion against the shadow, then no, the books have not said that. It's possible, but it's never been stated or even hinted at.

 

If you are speaking of the name Dragon specifically then you are right. Dragon was a name given specifically to the Lews Therin incarnation of that soul by the people of the Age of Legends--it is not a name for the soul, it is a title for that specific incarnation, which is why Rand isn't himself the Dragon, but rather the Dragon Reborn.

 

So yes, there have been many rebirths of that soul that have not born the title Dragon, it doesn't mean they weren't playing the role of Champion.

 

When Rand saw the Heroes he saw more names per person then just one.  If Hawkwing had called Rand Joshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) and Rand called him Augustus Ceasar or Pontuse Pilote he readers could have understood the meaning But Perrin, Mat, and Hurin wouldn't know what they where talking about.

 

It'd be a bit problematic though, given Jesus and the Dragon Soul are utterly opposed in their intentions and efforts.

 

Quote from: nnokwoodeye on March 18, 2009, 03:02:01 PM

The personalities of the people there seem to be an Amalgamation of their last 3-4 incarnations (they just don't remember anything that happened before that).

Wrong. Birgitte remembers many lives, not just the last 3-4.

 

Correct, though they do seem to indeed be amalgamations.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

If there were any dragons before Lews Therin, the books do not identify it/them.

The books tell that Lews Therin was reborn many times, yet not always as the Dragon.  It could have been that Ishamael fought with each of them.

 

That depends on what you mean by the Dragon--if you mean that the soul has been born for other purposes than being the Lights Champion against the shadow, then no, the books have not said that. It's possible, but it's never been stated or even hinted at.

 

If you are speaking of the name Dragon specifically then you are right. Dragon was a name given specifically to the Lews Therin incarnation of that soul by the people of the Age of Legends--it is not a name for the soul, it is a title for that specific incarnation, which is why Rand isn't himself the Dragon, but rather the Dragon Reborn.

RJ is reported to have said that the Dragon soul is reborn as something else as the Lights Champion. The Dragon isn't specific for Lews Therin, it is the the Dragon that is reborn before every Last Battle. The soul has different names and different personalities each turning.

From "Thus Spake the Creator":

Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.   In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this Soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "LTT", but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of time, could it be possible that it woulnd't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again. If I remember correctly Avaeus taped those first few words on his digital camera however, so I'll see if I can add those exact words here.

...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn. [And that's the phrase that ended my jubilation.]

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to rebalance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male [*sobs] , just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul [He actually pronounced this as Amatherisu. Anyone else find it curious that Jordan would place her on equal footing with Rand and Birgitte? The way he said this reminded me of Mother Therese, just like 'Materese the Healer' (TEotW, Chapter 4). Amerasu could most definitely be the same person as Materese. And the "The Healer" tag suddenly gets a lot more meaning, when thinking about how important she is to Jordan...] is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangable. Damn! - Raina

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, i don't trust Thus Spake the Creator--its unsourced, often contradicts itself, and I've found several cases of where the author's paraphrasing of one of RJ's answers has changed the meaning.

 

Not that i have any problem with the idea Nightstrike--I've never seen anything to contradict it, and its certainly viable, I just don't regard Thus Spake the Creator as a reliable source for anything.

 

The Dragon isn't specific for Lews Therin, it is the the Dragon that is reborn before every Last Battle. The soul has different names and different personalities each turning.

 

The 'Dragon' as in the word being used as a title for the soul is specific to Lews Therin. He was named it by the people of the Age of Legends--it was not in reference to the role his soul played in fighting the Shadow, it was in reference to the role the Lews Therin incarnation played. Just as the Tedronai incarnation was named the Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael even says as much to Lews Therin. It's specific to the Age of Legends.

 

The soul is born before every last battle, but it doesn't always bear the title Dragon--that is Lews Therin's title, which is why Rand, the next incarnation after Lews Therin, is the Dragon Reborn.

[benr]

Birgitte remembers the past lives because of being ripped out, and then the memories start to fade.  Other heroes that are reborn (or other rebornees) don't remember their past lives.  Rand had no clue, until he acquired LTT in his head.  Mat, also, has special circumstances for his past lives memories.

[Majsju]

Mat, also, has special circumstances for his past lives memories.

 

For starters, the lives he has memories of are not his own.

[benr]

Good point.