He who is dead yet lives

[homefly17]

Hey im new to this whole site, but after re-reading the books again I just got the impression that the prophecy saying something like, he who is dead yet lives, refers to the children Aviendha, Elayne, and Min will have. Elaynes already preggers, Aviendha probs is, and it wont be long before Min is too. It explains the prophecy and also makes a lot of sense...

[Jethro]

I personally think it is Rand himself somehow living after dying. I wonder whether or not Rands kids will be the "remnant of a remnant."

[Dmitri]

Hey im new to this whole site, but after re-reading the books again I just got the impression that the prophecy saying something like, he who is dead yet lives, refers to the children Aviendha, Elayne, and Min will have. Elaynes already preggers, Aviendha probs is, and it wont be long before Min is too. It explains the prophecy and also makes a lot of sense...

 

It's Nicola's foretelling:

LoC,Ch14 - "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

So, how does "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives" refer to their children?

Please explain your ideas better.  ;)

[metria31183]

Personally (and I know this will bring much moaning and groaning and gnashing of teeth) I've always thought that "he who is dead yet lives" refers to Mat since he died and lived again.

[Alghar Khan]

Personally (and I know this will bring much moaning and groaning and gnashing of teeth) I've always thought that "he who is dead yet lives" refers to Mat since he died and lived again.

that could be the case, but I think it sounds strange that it says "he who IS dead". Almost as if the body is alive but the soul is missing. It all boils down to whether it should be taken literally or not.

[metria31183]

Personally (and I know this will bring much moaning and groaning and gnashing of teeth) I've always thought that "he who is dead yet lives" refers to Mat since he died and lived again.

that could be the case, but I think it sounds strange that it says "he who IS dead". Almost as if the body is alive but the soul is missing. It all boils down to whether it should be taken literally or not.

 

True, it also could refer to Rand as LTT reborn.  LTT is dead, but he has been reborn as Rand.

[Jethro]

Lews Therin being reborn as Rand doesnt count as him dying and living again, since it would be a different incarnation of the Dragon soul. Rand hearing Lews Therins voice doesnt mean Lews lives either, it just means that the barrier between the current incarnation (Rand) and the previous one (Lews) is thinning. As time goes on, Rand shows more and more Lews Therin traits; drawing, scratching his ear while skenning at pretty ladies, all signs of Lews Therin, but tyhey dont mean he lives.

[ROB_88]

perhaps LTT might take complete control?

it's still Rands body, but Rand as we know him is dead and Lews has taken his place

[MikeRiley]

Hey im new to this whole site, but after re-reading the books again I just got the impression that the prophecy saying something like, he who is dead yet lives, refers to the children Aviendha, Elayne, and Min will have. Elaynes already preggers, Aviendha probs is, and it wont be long before Min is too. It explains the prophecy and also makes a lot of sense...

 

I think it referring to his children is about as likely as the "his blood spilled" prophecy referring to Elayne giving birth at Shayol Ghul. It could happen! But.. I just can't see it being true.

[Casco]

"Aviendha - Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd"

Maby this holds the answer in some way. I cant imagine how though, but i still think it holds some answers. As allways we will se it after we get answer in AMOL though, as allways with RJ writing :)

[mb]

To me only Lews Therin and Rand could be the only candidates for "he who is dead yet lives".

If before Tarmon Gaidon, Lews Therin.  (He at times channels through Rand.)

If after Tarmon Gaidon, Rand.  (Either he becoming resurrected or being like a spirit.)

 

The children theory kind of makes sense; Rand living through them.

About Rand's children, we know that Elayne will have 2 of them and that Aviendha will have 4 of them; but no prophecy tells that Min would have any.

 

[metria31183]

perhaps LTT might take complete control?

it's still Rands body, but Rand as we know him is dead and Lews has taken his place

 

Hmmmm.  What if the voice Rand hears in his head isn't really LTT?  I agree with Jethro's comment earlier that the barrier between the two incarnations is thinning so Rand is picking up traits that LTT had, but I don't think the voice is LTT.  I think (and this may seem way out in left field to some) that the voice is Rand's outlet for his emotions.  He thinks he has to be hard and show no emotion.  There was also the taint on saidin.  I believe the voice started as a manifestation of the effects of the taint in very early stages.  The voice started becoming more active after Galina and Co. kidnapped him.  I would call almost call it PTSD (post-traumatic stress discorder).  I've paid special attention as I have been listening to the books recently and I've noticed that the voice appears when Rand is confronted with emotions that he doesn't want to feel (fear, sadness, despair).  Rand doesn't believe can do what he needs to do and feel those emotions.  So the emotions come from a second personality in his that he calls Lews Therin.

[mb]

About Lews Therin, this page discusses it::

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.6_lews.html

 

From the evidence, the voice has to be Lews Therin.

If it was the Taint, there would have been little support for it to be still there after the cleansing.

Also, Rand has also Lews Therin's memories.

And there have been times that Lews Therin channels.

 

It being an outlet for Rand's emotions, there to me is little support for that.

Fear/Sadness/Despair are not the only times when the voice comes.

 

[metria31183]

About Lews Therin, this page discusses it::

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.6_lews.html

 

From the evidence, the voice has to be Lews Therin.

If it was the Taint, there would have been little support for it to be still there after the cleansing.

Also, Rand has also Lews Therin's memories.

And there have been times that Lews Therin channels.

 

It being an outlet for Rand's emotions, there to me is little support for that.

Fear/Sadness/Despair are not the only times when the voice comes.

 

 

The effects of the Taint weren't removed with the cleansing.  RJ confirmed this.

 

Question from Elzabet: Does the healing of the taint reverse its previous effects? Or does the victim have to live with whatever he's gotten to that point and be grateful it won't get worse?

 

Robert Jordan: The second.

 

 

RJ also said

Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

 

I put those two things together to conclude that like Jethro suggested, the barrier between the incarnations is thinning so he remembers things LTT did.  But I extend that further to theorize that Rand begin to develop the LTT personality as a way to deal with those memories.  He attributed them to LTT, but he just couldn't handle the fact that he could be sane and remember things a dead man did, even he is the reincarnation of that man.  So he created a way for himself to deal with them.  I believe that the split was made worse by the taint and then cemented by the treatment of Rand by Galina and Co.

[Majsju]

I put those two things together to conclude that like Jethro suggested, the barrier between the incarnations is thinning so he remembers things LTT did.  But I extend that further to theorize that Rand begin to develop the LTT personality as a way to deal with those memories.  He attributed them to LTT, but he just couldn't handle the fact that he could be sane and remember things a dead man did, even he is the reincarnation of that man.  So he created a way for himself to deal with them.  I believe that the split was made worse by the taint and then cemented by the treatment of Rand by Galina and Co.

 

But it is not only memories, we have seen rand adopting mannerisms from LTT, as well as talents, like all of a sudden being able to draw a portrait well enough that people can recognise the face.

[magnutz]

perhaps LTT might take complete control?

it's still Rands body, but Rand as we know him is dead and Lews has taken his place

 

Hmmmm.  What if the voice Rand hears in his head isn't really LTT?  I agree with Jethro's comment earlier that the barrier between the two incarnations is thinning so Rand is picking up traits that LTT had, but I don't think the voice is LTT.  I think (and this may seem way out in left field to some) that the voice is Rand's outlet for his emotions.  He thinks he has to be hard and show no emotion.  There was also the taint on saidin.  I believe the voice started as a manifestation of the effects of the taint in very early stages.  The voice started becoming more active after Galina and Co. kidnapped him.  I would call almost call it PTSD (post-traumatic stress discorder).  I've paid special attention as I have been listening to the books recently and I've noticed that the voice appears when Rand is confronted with emotions that he doesn't want to feel (fear, sadness, despair).  Rand doesn't believe can do what he needs to do and feel those emotions.  So the emotions come from a second personality in his that he calls Lews Therin.

 

Nice thought. I don't buy it though. I believe that the voice really IS LTT. They way the two of them interact and both think the other one crazy is wonderful. ;) RJ made a masterpiece there!

[Yllek]

I believe the voice is LLT.  With that said, perhaps the foretelling refers to LLT's voice in Rand's head; LLT is certaintly dead... He who is dead (LLT) yet lives (through the voices in Rand's head).  Additionally (and I never considered this until right now), it's possible that the meaning of the word "yet" changes the meaning of the sentence depending on how you look at it.  "Yet" can me "and" or "also" which would mean a concurrant life/death situation - my guess is that most people see it so, I always have.  Or "yet" can be interpereted to mean "still, but for a short time only".  With this framework (the reference being to LLT's voice), LLT may be saying his last words to Rand and will go away really soon, which would make sence being as how the last battle is over in this foretelling.

 

Not saying I believe this, but I'm going to turn the thought over in my head a little and see where it leads...

[MikeRiley]

In my first few read-throughs I always read the "yet" as meaning "still". I suggested somewhere that "He who is dead yet lives" really went along with Egwene's dream where Rand's body collapses and wasn't real and everybody just believed he was dead. The idea was that he takes some serious injuries sometime during Tarmon Gai'don and he'll be secreted away to recover by those 3 women on the boat. That vision reminded me a lot of King Arthur's fall in battle, whisked away to Avalon. So it could come about that rumor is spread that he's dead so nobody comes looking for him, or to give him that element of surprise that he'll need. He recovers over the course of a few weeks and returns to finish what he started. He who is dead yet lives. "To live you must die" doesn't have to be taken literally either, everybody could just believe him dead. "His blood spilled" could also refer to the destruction of the Aiel (his blood) rather than his actual blood.

[Nightstrike]

The Dark One hasn't ordered Rand killed. Why not? Some kind of "temporary" death might be a winning strategy for the Light. Maybe Alivia will stop his heart and set some kind of "Keeping" weave on his body. Alivia is supposed to "help him die". Maybe Rand fighting as a Hero of the Horn would make him unstoppable. But that doesn't explain the people in the boat. Maybe they need to transport his body to wherever Alivia happens to be?

 

 

[MikeRiley]

If Rand was to die in battle, the one thing those close to him would do (assuming they have any sense) is hide the body, secret it away, so nobody will see it and lose morale.

[reyler]

Adherents to the Moridin bodyswap theory could argue that Rand's body is killed after he trades it with Moridin; Rand's soul is still alive in the mortal plane in Moridin's body, but the body that until recently was his, and that nobody but the three women to whom he is bonded would realised he no longer occupies, could be killed, and everyone in sight would think Rand himself was dead.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, I'm kind of leaning towards that bodyswap theory myself. But wasn't there some dream (Egwene's, I think... ) where Rand was a blind beggar? Maybe both bodyswap and temporary death will happen?

[MikeRiley]

Egwene might be seeing Moridin in Rand's body and just assumes it's Rand, when considering the body swap theory.

[Nightstrike]

I searched wotmania and found the following (it was Perrin's wolfdream)

Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

 

-The Shadow Rising, To the Tower of Ghenjei

 

And this (Egwene's dream):

Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.

 

-The Path Of Daggers, Stronger than Written Law

 

And this (Min's viewing):

”I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and…” Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice.” I don’t know what it means, Rand, except one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I – Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies.”

 

-A Crown Of Swords, A Bath

Who is gonna die? What soul is in Rand's beggar body? And is the blind beggar occuring before or after the Last Battle?

 

 

 

[mb]

I searched wotmania and found the following (it was Perrin's wolfdream)

Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

 

-The Shadow Rising, To the Tower of Ghenjei

 

And this (Egwene's dream):

Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.

 

-The Path Of Daggers, Stronger than Written Law

 

And this (Min's viewing):

”I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and…” Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice.” I don’t know what it means, Rand, except one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I – Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies.”

 

-A Crown Of Swords, A Bath

Who is gonna die? What soul is in Rand's beggar body? And is the blind beggar occuring before or after the Last Battle?

 

Min's viewing, I think the touching part could have been fulfilled in Rand's balefire incident with Moridin.

Egwene's dream might be fulfilled by Moridin's face becoming Rand's; though the mask part might have a symbolic meaning and not a literal meaning, the masks representing Rand's different titles.

Perrin's wolf dream, it relating to the other prophecies is speculative.