reviving

[cauthon123]

as we all know, the dark one can revive people who are dead (excluding those who are balefired).

we know that balefire rips ppl off the pattern. so what does death do? i mean, sure, dead people come back later because of the wheel, but, what does it mean in terms of the pattern for the dark one to revive people at his will? is this ability limited to those who walk in the shadow? or are there any limitations at all?

[Roxinos]

I'd say we don't have enough information to speculate on that without taking a lot of poetic license.

 

Balefire does not rip people off the Pattern. It burns their thread back through time. Death just removes the thread from the Pattern. The Dark One merely takes that thread and weaves it back into the Pattern. The Dark One can't revive people at will, there is a limited time window (which is why balefire prevents him from reviving someone) in which he can revive someone.

 

Pure speculation: The Dark One can revive anyone. He can control any soul, as long as he takes the soul within the time window. He just has no reason to revive those who aren't Darkfriends.

 

And this question of yours is the very basic idea behind whether or not the Kari al'Thor we see at the end of The Eye of the World is the real Kari al'Thor or just an illusion created by Ba'alzamon.

[MikeRiley]

Kari al'Thor was dead for a long time before she appeared in book 1 and she looked the way Rand remembered her. She would have aged a bit and the Dark One would have had to have known who her son was to care that much to bring her back when she died. Since he didn't and Ba'alzamon had to find Rand himself, it's more likely he saw an image of Kari in Rand's dreams and used that to create an illusion.

[ROB_88]

And this question of yours is the very basic idea behind whether or not the Kari al'Thor we see at the end of The Eye of the World is the real Kari al'Thor or just an illusion created by Ba'alzamon.

 

well, since Ba'azamon isn't actually the Dark One even if he think so, he doesn't have the powers overthe grave that the DO might have, so that must have been just an image

[mb]

Revive I think is the wrong term.  Revive to me implies the person being close to death but not yet dead.

Resurrect seems more accurate.

 

It seems that balefire victims are the only souls the Dark One cannot resurrect.

Theoretically the Dark One could resurrect Light-sided souls, but it seems that he would choose not to.

 

[Roxinos]

She would have aged a bit...

 

Why would she have aged a bit? She's dead. You age even after death?

 

Since he didn't and Ba'alzamon had to find Rand himself, it's more likely he saw an image of Kari in Rand's dreams and used that to create an illusion.

 

Yep, that's the common argument against the idea that it was really Kari al'Thor. Of course, the fact that she seemed to truly express relief when Rand "freed" her and denied the Dark One's advances (Ba'alzamon's, but Rand thought he was the Dark One) speaks otherwise. Why would an illusion thank Rand for freeing her? Especially if that illusion was created by Ba'alzamon?

 

well, since Ba'azamon isn't actually the Dark One even if he think so, he doesn't have the powers overthe grave that the DO might have, so that must have been just an image

 

Too true. But we do know that Ba'alzamon has some limited control over souls using the True Power. Seeing as Ba'alzamon tried to tear Rand's soul out of him in The Dragon Reborn.

[MikeRiley]

She would have aged a bit...

 

Why would she have aged a bit? She's dead. You age even after death?

 

She ceases to be dead if she's brought back to life. For that to have happened, the Dark One would have had to bring her back when she died, or soon after. So she'd have been running around for what, 15 years? She would have aged a bit in that time.

[Roxinos]

She ceases to be dead if she's brought back to life. For that to have happened, the Dark One would have had to bring her back when she died, or soon after. So she'd have been running around for what, 15 years? She would have aged a bit in that time.

 

What makes you think that she had to be brought back to life to be shown to Rand?

[Kura]

Guys, it wasn't Kari. The dark one brings people back in a new body, at least from what we see of the forsaken's revival. He takes the soul of one person, and puts it in another's body. Kari's body is dead...shes gone, even if he wanted to bring her back to mess with Rand, her body is as many graveworms by now.

[Roxinos]

It's not so clear cut as that, Kura. But of course, you can have your opinion.

[Dark Justice]

however, he has a valid point. When the DO ressurect someone, he needs a body. The ressurected soul goes in that body.

[Roxinos]

I never said he resurrected her. Souls can exist outside of the body. We see that in TAR, and we see that more often in recent books with the dead coming back to life. None of the ghosts that people like Mat have seen have bodies of their own.

[Dark Justice]

true. I just agreed with Kura it not ari ressurected. What else it could be is pure speculations. If he has her soul trapped, or if he just summoned a picture he saw in Rands dreams is impossible to know.

 

My 2 cents.

RJ was not really finished with all his "rules" of how the DO and minnions could control the dead & souls.

BecauseÑ She seems real. Like said, she thanked Rand and so on. I was always sure she were Rands mom.

HOWEVER: we know from later in the series that the DO can not get to souls outside of the pattern. (the reason he can only ressurect people within a set time.)

 

So the deal is; DO had the power to bring her soul/memory/whatever back. Then RJ changed his mind, and now he cant.

 

It wouldnt be the first time RJ changed his mind.

Taint Vs Rand Vs Madness being one..

[Roxinos]

Why do you think he changed his mind in reference to the taint, Rand, and madness?

[Nightstrike]

Dead can exist (their souls, anyway) without a body, yes. The dead people that is seen is the result of the DO influencing the pattern. Kind of like the changing interior of Caemlyn palace. Something similar to mirror worlds from Portal Stones, I would guess.

 

The DO can't reincarnate people if they aren't Darkfriends. I don't think Kari al'Thor was a darkfriend. The DO is the father of lies and Ishamael is following in his footsteps in that respect too.

 

Q64 – Part 2: [The DO] doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

RJ: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived … the Bore doesn’t really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did. And uh, that’s, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be’lal, (names someone else) …

 

 

 

[Dark Justice]

Why do you think he changed his mind in reference to the taint, Rand, and madness?

 

Well. RJ planned the series to be two or 3 books. Even after just failing mostly at channeling, and then channeling a litle bit in Tear, he was showing clear signs of madness. (IMO)

Then he stayed like that, only getting slightly worse. Isnt it a bit weird he was going mad fron hardly channeling, and then staying like that for so long?

[Roxinos]

The DO can't reincarnate people if they aren't Darkfriends. I don't think Kari al'Thor was a darkfriend. The DO is the father of lies and Ishamael is following in his footsteps in that respect too.

 

Who says he can't resurrect those who aren't Darkfriends? He just has no reason to take the souls of those who don't support him and/or those who actually provide some good service to him. That quote you provided just said he has an easier time of it in Shayol Ghul and it's a bit more difficult to do so outside of Shayol Ghul. If anything, that just means his time window is more limited.

 

But it's not impossible.

 

Well. RJ planned the series to be two or 3 books.

 

Considering how long tEotW was and what happened in that, and then just what happened in the time it took Rand to get marked with the two dragons at Rhuidean (which was part of the Prophecies of the Dragon from the start of the series), it is quite clear RJ never intended it to be only two or three books. At the start, he figured it would be about 5 or 6 books, but I'm speaking through memory of things I've read. I welcome you to find a quote from him.

 

Even after just failing mostly at channeling, and then channeling a litle bit in Tear, he was showing clear signs of madness. (IMO)

Then he stayed like that, only getting slightly worse. Isnt it a bit weird he was going mad fron hardly channeling, and then staying like that for so long?

 

The Dragon Reborn (the third book) is the only one that he shows what could be considered "clear madness." And that can also be explained by the fact that he hadn't had a good night's rest in a looong time because his dreams were constantly being bombarded by Ba'alzamon, Lanfear, Callandor, and just regular nightmares. Not to mention knowing he just learned he has to fight the Dark One. He was also just going through the darker parts of the Prophecies in his mind (like quoting the bit about his blood being spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul in The Dragon Reborn before he left Moiraine to go to Tear). He has the wonders of the One Power juxtaposed with the horrors of the taint. Not to mention he was feeling pretty useless because the Dragonsworn were running around leaderless and he felt an obligation to them, and the Sheinarans that Rand had in his party were dying for him.

 

None of that bodes well for a particularly good emotional state. It has little to do with the taint. The events once Rand did get Callandor (sending lightning and such through the Stone killing Lanfear's trollocs) was madness-induced, but that's because the Sword That is Not a Sword does not have a buffer for the taint.

[Dark Justice]

I meat 3 to 4 books, but that is what happens when you dont look at the keybord or the screen while writing..  ;)

 

I was also fairly sure the black "threads" on the forsaken was his connection to them, and could only revive them. But that is something I have no real grounds to be sertain of. I just thought so...

 

Still.. RJs "ground rules" changing is the only real reason I can see for it being Kari, and not Ishy creating an image of her..

[Roxinos]

The black cords are his connection to them. But they only do two things: 1) Grant immortality, 2) Grant protection from the taint.

 

and not Ishy creating an image of her..

 

As I've said, the problem with that idea lies in Kari's reaction to Rand's actions.

 

This really isn't going anywhere. But you see my point, so I'm satisfied. I really have no opinion on the matter.

[Nightstrike]

Who says he can't resurrect those who aren't Darkfriends? He just has no reason to take the souls of those who don't support him and/or those who actually provide some good service to him.

On the contrary. He has every reason to order all and everyone in any valuable position, especially those with any emotional connection to Rand, killed by any means short of Balefire. If they are channelers, they can be turned. If they aren't, they can be used as blackmail - he wouldn't be too goodnatured for that, do you think? More service than any already sworn to him, probably including the Forsaken.

 

That quote you provided just said he has an easier time of it in Shayol Ghul and it's a bit more difficult to do so outside of Shayol Ghul. If anything, that just means his time window is more limited.

 

But it's not impossible.

The question was if the DO had access to grab any soul. He answered "No, no, no". Are you trying to claim that he actually meant to say "Yes, yes, yes"? I think he can transmigrate those that have been to Shayol Ghul.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

The Great Lord is a bit more...immediately pragmatic. Why would he grant a second life to those who do not serve him? A channeler...maybe. But their souls tend to be even more strongly bound to the Wheel, so they may be completely out of reach unless they're already dedicated to him.

 

The question was if the DO had access to grab any soul. He answered "No, no, no".

 

Yes, he answered that way and then clarified that the Great Lord's access to souls is not limitless. That there is a time window. So "No, no, no" does not mean he can only take Darkfriends, it means that the Great Lord's power is limited in the time allotted.