moiraines warder

[Nightstrike]

Stilling is a possibility, but we do not have enough evidence to say that it is the only possibility.

I have looked at the given evidence, and there is small degree of doubt for the stilling theory.

I think we can be fairly certain that both were burnt out. Lanny would probably have been burnt out from losing the angreal alone, but surely both would have become burnt out due to the burning ter'angreal if that hadn't been the case. Whether or not that was the cause for the strength loss is another matter. I've seen some other suggestions. "Healed by woman", "Healed by the DO", "loss of angreal=loss of OP units" (to Moiraine, due to her clawing the angreal away) & "Eelfinn wish revoked" are some that I've seen. Someone would have had to Heal her in all those alternative explanations, I believe. Man, woman or the DO. I don't think the finns could have done it, and I don't think they would've if they could. I don't think she was Healed by a man. I doubt any of the male Forsaken have that Talent, but who knows... The DO can Heal insanity, but can he Heal being burnt out? I would rate the chances in the following order; [1] Healed by woman, [2] Healed by DO & [3] Healed by man.

 

There is no indication of Cyndane meeting with any of the rebels; and no indication of any of the rebels waiting for her.

Doubtfully the rebels Healed her because of Arangar's cover.  There may have been a chance that Light-sided rebels witness the meeting if it took place.  Arangar's cover is based on the supposed information of Cabriana; and Cyndane's body looks very much like Cabriana's if it is not Cabriana's.  Even Illusion might risk breaking Arangar's cover, Illusion works best with something that is close to its original.

That is not necessarily a problem. Not if the Sister in question is strong enough to Travel. Otherwise they might pair up. One that can Heal and another to overcome Travel strength threshold. Then they can Travel to wherever Cyndane is and Heal her.

 

Also; if Lanfear/Cyndane was stilled, why did she get a new body?

Doubtfully she would have gotten a new body if she was only stilled.

Something else besides only stilling or burning out had to happen in one of these times:

-at the time of entering

-during her captivity

-in her rescue

Otherwise she would not have gotten a new body.

Lanfear must have either been killed by the finns or commited suicide. She thought (at the cleansing) something like "before the finns held me", which means that she lived long enough to have been held. Moiraine is still in captivity, though.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Stilling is a possibility, but we do not have enough evidence to say that it is the only possibility.

Looking at the evidence we currently have, not imaginary evidence, this is the only known possibility.

 

Doubtfully the rebels Healed her because of Arangar's cover. There may have been a chance that Light-sided rebels witness the meeting if it took place.

The rebels have this thing called "Traveling". It's wonderful, allows them to go places instantaneously.

 

Also; if Lanfear/Cyndane was stilled, why did she get a new body?

Because she died. Later.

 

I don't think she was Healed by a man.

We know she wasn't - women Healed by a man experience no loss of stength. This is seen in the Healing of the AS severed at DUmani's Wells, and by RJs words.

[Nightstrike]

I don't think she was Healed by a man.

We know she wasn't - women Healed by a man experience no loss of stength. This is seen in the Healing of the AS severed at DUmani's Wells, and by RJs words.

Yeah, I was going along with the suggested (but improbable) suggestions that I had read about. One suggestion that I've seen somewhere was that the lost strength was due to lanny losing OP units to Moiraine. Even if one would go along with that highly unlikely (but maybe possible?) explanation, one would still have to assume that lanny got Healed after being transmigrated. And it must have been by a man, in that case. Which is higly unlikely by itself. So, my conclusion is that the lost strength is most likely caused by being burnt out and then being Healed by a woman.

[Nightstrike]

Oh, and another reason for why that is unlikely is that Asmodean didn't lose any strength to Rand. True, the sa'angreal wasn't suddenly (and unexpectedly) clawed away, but still...

 

 

 

 

[mb]

Stilling, I am not sure if it would still apply when the woman dies and/or when she is resurrected.

 

I knew the rebels discovered Traveling. I was telling that Light-sided ones might also came.

 

[Mr Ares]

I knew the rebels discovered Traveling. I was telling that Light-sided ones might also came.

The AS respect each others privacy, in terms of where a Sister is Traveling to. If one Traveled away, none would know where.

[Yllek]

I'm going out on a limb here...

 

We know that the Tower of Ghengi is one of the ways that a person can access the realms of the fins.  We know that Slayer fled there in the 'wolf dream' while being chased by Perrin.  We know that Slayer is one of Mordin's pets. 

 

What is the possibility that Mordin or Slayer bargained for the release of Lanfear/Cyndene and part of the bargain was her reduced strength (you know, to knock her down a peg or two - she's always been so full of herself, plotting against the DO and all)?

 

I agree that she was likely stilled; "likely" being the operative word.  Sure, the bond between Moiraine and Lan was broken, like with death.  However, we've also been told (by Brigette, I believe) that the worlds of the fins are entirely different from the human world and use entirely different rules.  Until we know the rules, we don't know what happened for sure.  All we really know is the courage, fire, iron, music thing and the fact that their worlds are somehow folded (my guess is that this information will likely be important in Moiraines rescue).

 

Anyway, for what it's worth, anything's possible (if it pleases the light).   

[mb]

Supposing that severing would still apply after death & resurrection; the saidar strengths of Lanfear's, Cyndane's, and Graendal's would also need to be considered.

Siuan's & Leane's strengths were/are less than half than before they were severed.  If that is the best anyone could do (linked or unlinked), there would need to have been a big "gap" between Lanfear's and Graendal's strengths in order for Cyndane's to be stronger than Graendal's.

 

 

We know that the Tower of Ghengi is one of the ways that a person can access the realms of the fins.  We know that Slayer fled there in the 'wolf dream' while being chased by Perrin.

Actually, we do not know if Slayer entered into the tower at that time.  He might have simply exited Telaranrhiod.

 

[Mr Ares]

What is the possibility that Mordin or Slayer bargained for the release of Lanfear/Cyndene and part of the bargain was her reduced strength (you know, to knock her down a peg or two - she's always been so full of herself, plotting against the DO and all)?

About nil. Lanfear's reduction in strength is something that is of no benefit to the Shadow. Shai'tan sees His Chosen as tools, and this just makes her a less effective tool. The Shadow wouldn't want her weaker. Why would they bargain for a weakened Lanfear?

 

Supposing that severing would still apply after death & resurrection; the saidar strengths of Lanfear's, Cyndane's, and Graendal's would also need to be considered. Siuan's & Leane's strengths were/are less than half than before they were severed. If that is the best anyone could do (linked or unlinked), there would need to have been a big "gap" between Lanfear's and Graendal's strengths in order for Cyndane's to be stronger than Graendal's.

The issue of how much strength Siuan and Leane actually lost is not as clear as you would like it to be. We do not know how much they lost. Nor do we know how much Cyndane dropped, in comparison. Or if the amount lost is fixed or random or a percentage, etc. So we have no reason, at present, to believe that Cyndane's strength loss is out of line with what would be expected from a severing and Healing.

[Alghar Khan]

Supposing that severing would still apply after death & resurrection; the saidar strengths of Lanfear's, Cyndane's, and Graendal's would also need to be considered. Siuan's & Leane's strengths were/are less than half than before they were severed. If that is the best anyone could do (linked or unlinked), there would need to have been a big "gap" between Lanfear's and Graendal's strengths in order for Cyndane's to be stronger than Graendal's.

The issue of how much strength Siuan and Leane actually lost is not as clear as you would like it to be. We do not know how much they lost. Nor do we know how much Cyndane dropped, in comparison. Or if the amount lost is fixed or random or a percentage, etc. So we have no reason, at present, to believe that Cyndane's strength loss is out of line with what would be expected from a severing and Healing.

If Cyndane to Lanfear difference comes from severing and healing, then it can't be a percentage. Lanfear didn't lose as much percentage as Siuan and Leane did. It can't be random either, since other attempts at Healing then were made. It sounds wrong to expect a random loss. I don't think that can be the case.

 

[Mr Ares]

If Cyndane to Lanfear difference comes from severing and healing, then it can't be a percentage. Lanfear didn't lose as much percentage as Siuan and Leane did. It can't be random either, since other attempts at Healing then were made. It sounds wrong to expect a random loss. I don't think that can be the case.

Given that we don't know what percentage any of them lost, how can you rule it out. And attempt to Heal them again were in the aftermath of it already being done. You can't Heal it twice.

[Gracel]

Just a thought: It has been mentioned a few times that the DO would not want Lanfear to be returned weakened, either by himself or other forces, because that would diminish her usefulness.

However, it seems to me that strength in the power might not necessarily be her only asset. No, I'm not talking about her ravishing good looks that seem to have disappeared as well. She could have intimate knowledge of Lews Therin that would help the Shadow fight him. Further, the Dark might have their own Foretelling regarding her necessity to the TAG. Consider the following dark prophecy:

 

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel."

 

Not sure whether the DO himself would believe in such prophecy, or if he actually created it as propaganda, but it seems that she might be an integral part of the Last Battle (to the Dark), enough so for them to rescue her at any cost. And the DO might just be insane/cocky enough to figure she can still help him win, with or without her former strength. And it might be in Moridin's best interest for her to be reduced, that way she can't challenge his position (the mindtrap aside).

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Just a thought: It has been mentioned a few times that the DO would not want Lanfear to be returned weakened, either by himself or other forces, because that would diminish her usefulness.

However, it seems to me that strength in the power might not necessarily be her only asset.

No-one is saying it is. But it is one of her assets, and it is reduced for no gain. Shai'tan just shot Himself in the foot, in other words.

And the DO might just be insane/cocky enough to figure she can still help him win, with or without her former strength. And it might be in Moridin's best interest for her to be reduced, that way she can't challenge his position (the mindtrap aside).

She can't challenge his position anyway. The mindtrap is a pretty important thing to put aside. With that, she is controlled. Reducing her strength does not increase control, it limits capabilities. It is an idiotic move, and there is no good reson to do it. Maybe she can win without her former strength. Why reduce her, though? It makes no sense.

[Nightstrike]

Lanfear couldn't have lost more than half her strength. Cyndane is much stronger than Moghedien, according to Graendal. Nynaeve is slightly stronger than Moghedien (end potential) and Nynaeve is far, far above Moiraine. Cyndane being less than half of Lanfear's strength is impossible. Even Graendal is weaker than Cyndane.

[Luckers]

No one is saying that. The point is that Siuan, Leane and Lanfear lost the same degree of strength. Siuan and Leane did not lose half their strength either, though they being weaker and subject to the small range of strengths that make up the Aes Sedai hierarchy they did lose a great deal of standing.

[Nightstrike]

The point is that Siuan, Leane and Lanfear lost the same degree of strength. Siuan and Leane did not lose half their strength either, though they being weaker and subject to the small range of strengths that make up the Aes Sedai hierarchy they did lose a great deal of standing.

LoC, To Heal Again:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

If they were Healed up to half of what they were, that would be better than now. But still most there would be as strong and a good many stronger. Lets pretend that Siuan used to be 90 in strength. Then she got stilled. A little later she got Healed. Lets pretend that her weaker self is 40 in strength. If she got up to half of what she were, she would become 45. Still most there would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

We could even pretend that the stronger Siuan was at 100 in strenght, Luckers scale. That would fit even better with "still most there would be as strong, and a good many stronger.".

 

Siuan, neither the weaker nor the stronger, has ever been at 40 in strength.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Once again, they are speaking of their strength relative to their social standing--we know as a fact that they stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point, and therefore could not have lost more than half, or even close to half their strength.

 

As for your numbers--Siuan could never be a 90--Lanfear was a 100, Siuan was nowhere near that. And we know for a fact that she is currently around a 40--she has to be, she stands above the Aes Sedai cut off point. My guess is she stood around a 55 originally.

 

And what are you talking about, my scale--that has no relation to my scale whatsoever.

 

[Nightstrike]

Once again, they are speaking of their strength relative to their social standing--we know as a fact that they stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point, and therefore could not have lost more than half, or even close to half their strength.

That cut off that you imagine to be at 37, or whatever, is based on a misinterpretation of what RJ said.

 

As for your numbers--Siuan could never be a 90--Lanfear was a 100, Siuan was nowhere near that. And we know for a fact that she is currently around a 40--she has to be, she stands above the Aes Sedai cut off point. My guess is she stood around a 55 originally.

Exactly, she couldn't. She couldn't be at 100 either. She couldn't even be anywhere near those strengths. We know for a fact that she's currently A LOT weaker than 37.

 

And what are you talking about, my scale--that has no relation to my scale whatsoever.

You've been saying that mean of women is at 50, Lanfear was at 100, all Aes Sedai are stronger than 37 (or something like that), and so on. That is wrong.

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 04:31:51 AM

Once again, they are speaking of their strength relative to their social standing--we know as a fact that they stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point, and therefore could not have lost more than half, or even close to half their strength.

That cut off that you imagine to be at 37, or whatever, is based on a misinterpretation of what RJ said.

 

Sure it is.

 

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As for your numbers--Siuan could never be a 90--Lanfear was a 100, Siuan was nowhere near that. And we know for a fact that she is currently around a 40--she has to be, she stands above the Aes Sedai cut off point. My guess is she stood around a 55 originally.

Exactly, she couldn't. She couldn't be at 100 either. She couldn't even be anywhere near those strengths. We know for a fact that she's currently A LOT weaker than 37.

 

We know of several Aes Sedai she's stronger then, ergo she is in fact stronger then 37. Sorry mate.

 

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And what are you talking about, my scale--that has no relation to my scale whatsoever.

You've been saying that mean of women is at 50, Lanfear was at 100, all Aes Sedai are stronger than 37 (or something like that), and so on. That is wrong.

 

Thats exactly what I'm saying.

[Nightstrike]

The quote I gave earlier proves it. But here comes the quote that you misinterpreted. Read bold marked parts in particular.

RJ's blog:

For Gyrehead, Foretelling is not related to strength.  The weakest possible channeler could Foretell as strongly as Elaida or Nicola, or perhaps even more so, depending entirely on the strength of his or her Talent for Foretelling.  The three Red Sitters were sent into exile in 985 NE under Marith Jaen.  Yes, Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn.  Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve.  I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment.  The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve.  Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%.  Again, the maths are all yours.  Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels.  Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

 

The weakest man and the weakest woman is roughly the same strength. Add to that the fact that 62.5 % of the women are above the same strength as 65.4% of all the men are above. And there are several levels of male strength above the women's strength. No matter whether the 21 level list is for only women , or for men&women, these curves can't be symmetric about the mean.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Yes bud, i know the quote. If you pause to think you'll remember i actually showed it to you, first.

 

But how is it a misinterpretation--let me point out to you that RJ stated that he'll 'the maths to you for an idle moment.'. For that comment to be viable the distribution is exact, ergo the cut of strength is at exactly 37.5 units of strength on the female chart.

 

Also your logic is confusing--why does the male percentage of strengths apply? We arn't speaking of men, and their relative strongths don't affect the distribution of female strengths. I mean really man, go back and look at what you wrong--if someone said that 30% of women exceeded 6 feet, and 32% of men did, And that men stood a level or two above the female top height, the male numbers don't alter the female at all. They don't even touch on the distribution. The only difference between the two is with heights is uneven, but with strength in the power we know it to be even based on RJ's comment. Endgame.

 

And, as i stated above, the quote you provided earlier speaks of their strengths in relation to the social hierarchy.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Yes bud, i know the quote. If you pause to think you'll remember i actually showed it to you, first.

Oh, I think I'd seen it before you introduced me to it. I might have been a little confused about the whole thing, since several of the things you mentioned about it was wrong. For instance, "there are several levels of male strenght on top of the female strength", which you claimed was "one or two levels".

 

But how is it a misinterpretation--let me point out to you that RJ stated that he'll 'the maths to you for an idle moment.'. For that comment to be viable the distribution is exact, ergo the cut of strength is at exactly 37.5 units of strength on the female chart.

No, that is something you have added yourself. He never said that they were symmetric curves.

 

Also your logic is confusing--why does the male percentage of strengths apply? We arn't speaking of men, and their relative strongths don't affect the distribution of female strengths.

Logically speaking, if your claim that "maths are all yours" means a symmetric curve, then both the female and the male curves would be symmetric. He mentioned the "maths are all yours" after both female and male strengths. But that was not what he meant. You've misinterpreted those remarks of his.

 

I mean really man, go back and look at what you wrong--if someone said that 30% of women exceeded 6 feet, and 32% of men did, And that men stood a level or two above the female top height, the male numbers don't alter the female at all.

He didn't say "a level or two", he said "several levels".

 

They don't even touch on the distribution. The only difference between the two is with heights is uneven, but with strength in the power we know it to be even based on RJ's comment. Endgame.

Se the things I've already said.

 

And, as i stated above, the quote you provided earlier speaks of their strengths in relation to the social hierarchy.

No, it very clearly speaks of their strengths. That was what was going to be Healed. They mention "strength" and not "standing". Different words, different things.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

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But how is it a misinterpretation--let me point out to you that RJ stated that he'll 'the maths to you for an idle moment.'. For that comment to be viable the distribution is exact, ergo the cut of strength is at exactly 37.5 units of strength on the female chart.

No, that is something you have added yourself. He never said that they were symmetric curves.

 

So, again, your going to ignore what prove you wrong.

 

Fine nightstrike, you live in your bubble.

 

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Also your logic is confusing--why does the male percentage of strengths apply? We arn't speaking of men, and their relative strongths don't affect the distribution of female strengths.

Logically speaking, if your claim that "maths are all yours" means a symmetric curve, then both the female and the male curves would be symmetric. He mentioned the "maths are all yours" after both female and male strengths. But that was not what he meant. You've misinterpreted those remarks of his.

 

Yes, both would indeed be symetric. In their own states--two seperate curves.

 

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I mean really man, go back and look at what you wrong--if someone said that 30% of women exceeded 6 feet, and 32% of men did, And that men stood a level or two above the female top height, the male numbers don't alter the female at all.

He didn't say "a level or two", he said "several levels".

 

So what? My intention was never to minimise the degree to which male strengths exceed female strengths.

 

Really dude? 'a level or two' compared to 'several'... thats what your clinging too? Its not even relevant.

 

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They don't even touch on the distribution. The only difference between the two is with heights is uneven, but with strength in the power we know it to be even based on RJ's comment. Endgame.

Se the things I've already said.

 

Ok. *pauses to peruse*. I'm sorry, did you think they'd be any different the second time through?

 

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And, as i stated above, the quote you provided earlier speaks of their strengths in relation to the social hierarchy.

No, it very clearly speaks of their strengths. That was what was going to be Healed. They mention "strength" and not "standing". Different words, different things.

 

Humans are complex creatures, they can refer to more than one thing at a time--as is the case here, which we know as a fact. You can't get around it mate, ive said this to you in three threads now. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but its the case.

 

I'm not responding to this anymore by the way. You cling to your bubble if you want, its just boring at this stage.

[Nightstrike]

Also your logic is confusing--why does the male percentage of strengths apply? We arn't speaking of men, and their relative strongths don't affect the distribution of female strengths.

Logically speaking, if your claim that "maths are all yours" means a symmetric curve, then both the female and the male curves would be symmetric. He mentioned the "maths are all yours" after both female and male strengths. But that was not what he meant. You've misinterpreted those remarks of his.

 

Yes, both would indeed be symetric. In their own states--two seperate curves.

The very same quote from RJ's blog proves that they can't be symmetric. You've misinterpreted RJ's blog.

 

 

 

So what? My intention was never to minimise the degree to which male strengths exceed female strengths.

 

Really dude? 'a level or two' compared to 'several'... thats what your clinging too? Its not even relevant.

I don't need to cling to that. We already know that Siuan lost more than half her strength.

 

 

And, as i stated above, the quote you provided earlier speaks of their strengths in relation to the social hierarchy.

No, it very clearly speaks of their strengths. That was what was going to be Healed. They mention "strength" and not "standing". Different words, different things.

 

Humans are complex creatures, they can refer to more than one thing at a time--as is the case here, which we know as a fact. You can't get around it mate, ive said this to you in three threads now. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but its the case.

Humans might be complex creatures, but that doesn't change anything. They spoke of strength. And they spoke of the Healing of strength.

 

I'm not responding to this anymore by the way. You cling to your bubble if you want, its just boring at this stage.

Bubble? You can cling to bubbles, if you want.

 

 

[Luckers]

People should know that Nightstrike and I are not just being arrogant wankers in believing this simplistic arguments allow us to try to shut down the other so firmly. This is a continuation of other threads where the issues are much more elaborately stated--we just lept back into the end game. Of course that end game is that Nightstrike is utterly, completely, sytematically, Bush-in-Iraq level wrong... wait, what was i talking about?

 

Oh yeah, I'm not a wanker.  ;D

 

*batters his eyelashes at Nightstrike* Someday you'll learn not to play with me. Until then, here's looking at you kid.