The Unifying Soul Theory

[Luckers]

Ok, this is mostly just for fun and is without any real support. But I was thinking, there are alot of quasi-mystical abilities in the world of the Wheel. Channeling, Wolfbrothering, Aura Viewing and so on.

 

There was a thread recently in which someone was attempting to show the similarities between Min's ability and that of the Finns, even though RJ stated them to be different--but it occurred to me, whilst their abilities may be different in origin, they may revolve around the same things--say, both the Finns and Min can see peoples souls, or some such.

 

The point I am making--though not very clearly--is that though things may be different they may stem from the same thing. Min and the Finn's abilities are diffrent, yet in terms of function are very similar. The significance being that our world lacks these multitude of mystical realities (ignoring psychics for the moment), yet our world is supposed to be a part of theirs.

 

It is inprobable for hundreds of different abilities to assert itself independent of each other, so I suggest that they have a singular unifying principal. The Soul.

 

All of which is relatively unimportant, but it does supply exact and specific explanations for various things which have to date remained blurry. Concider.

 

Wolves--Able to telepathically communicate--or not. Instead it seems their souls exist partially in TAR at all times, thus providing the method for their comunication.

 

Min & the Finns--able to see the future around a person--or perhaps rather able to see the parts of the soul that arn't contained by the body, containing the elements of their future. It would explain why Aes Sedai and Asha'men have more viewable realities than non-channelers even though many have no particular importance, their souls are more extended by the function of their channeling.

 

Channelers--the soul is involved. Thats not a big one, sorry.

 

Dreamers--same as wolves though not so powerful.

 

Now, all this is fairly supported by other stuff, but lets move beyond.

 

Mordeth & Aridhol--So a man preaches nastiness and an entire city disapear into vapour leaving a taint so deep it can kill. Even in WoT that's unknown. Not even the Forsaken, in all their evil, have managed such a thing. I would postulate that his soul was involved--certainly that is suggested by that it survived, bound to the city. Seemingly he drew on the hatred of the souls in Aridhol until that hatred consumed those souls. Used that power--used those souls, until the power became something in itself.

 

This would explain Fain's abilities. If Mordeth were able to use the concetrated power of souls... well, i mean concider what he has done--the repeat of the families death in tGH. The mirrors of the Asha'men he killed in WH. Both displaying someone dead--this could very well be linked to the ability to use the powers of souls. And causing that boy pain--maybe he was torturing the boys soul.

 

Then there is Machin Shin.

 

Machin Shin--It consumes souls, and speaks with many voices. The obvious idea is that it is made up of souls. Perhaps that is how it originated--one of the men making it, or who travelled through it had a soul ability similar to Mordeths, or maybe the taint on saidin grew something new with that ability. Either way i suspect it existed for a long time before it was noticed, consuming souls, building on itself. It may even be responsible for the darkening of the Ways--if Mordeth could taint Aridhol, then why could not the same happen in the Ways. It may not even have anything to do with the Taint.

 

But the point is Fain. The only individual to be consumed by Machin Shin and left alive. An individual Machin Shin recognised as kindred. Now, I've always said that was just because of their relative evils... but what if it was because of a similar soul ability. After all we've witnessed changes in Machin Shin since the encounter. Waiting at gates, attempting to leave through gates and succeeding to a degree, letting a hundred thousand trollocs pass in KoD.

 

Thats the idea--everything is linked to the soul.

[Bela]

An interesting theory, especially concerning Mordeth/Fain. However, I think that labeling the Min/Finn ability into this category could be stretching it. A soul carrying contents of a persons future would point this theory into the realm of fate and destiny and I don't think Randland supports that idea in any way. Yes there are prophecies, and heroes spun out to fulfill certain purposes but in all those instances, the person is granted free will. In addition, my experience in life, fantasy and science fiction is that a soul is a sacred thing, a life force, your inner everything, your inner pureness. The ability to touch another beings soul, I would think, would be dangerous and more vile than rape. With that theory, it could explain why only the Dark One would do such a thing, and/or why Padan Fain CAN do such a thing.

[Luckers]

Firstly, Min's viewigs, and that of the Finn's, are always true. That to me implies a sense of fate or destiny. I would say that the story completely supports that.

 

Secondly, I'm not sure i would phrase the soul as sacred--in the context of the story it seems to be merely another aspect of a persons being. We've seen souls trapped, destroyed, distorted. Every sort of manipulation imaginable. If it is sacred, then it is very easy to profain against.

[Bela]

Firstly, Min's viewigs, and that of the Finn's, are always true. That to me implies a sense of fate or destiny. I would say that the story completely supports that.

 

Min claims they have always come true, and that may be the case, but it doesn't mean they always will. There is also a great deal of choice and if/or's and vagueness involved in many of those viewings. Destiny is set clear in stone, and though she may be reading the future and the people have made these choices, there is often room for two or three different outcomes. I would say it is more likely she is reading their threads of the pattern than their souls, though in this case those two things could be the same.

 

Secondly, I'm not sure i would phrase the soul as sacred--in the context of the story it seems to be merely another aspect of a persons being. We've seen souls trapped, destroyed, distorted. Every sort of manipulation imaginable. If it is sacred, then it is very easy to profain against.

 

All by evil forces with exceptional power, and the Finns are not particularly friendly either...

[Thor]

How do you explain technology or even ter'angreals then?  How is that linked to the soul?

 

Also, if it is all about the soul, what about souls of different species?  How do souls of ogiers, humans, wolves, etc work?

[Bela]

Min can't read Ogiers. This topic has got me thinking and I would find it more logical to theorize that all this has to do with a person's individual thread. Min/Finn for example could reel that thread in an see forward in time for example.

[Luckers]

Min claims they have always come true, and that may be the case, but it doesn't mean they always will. There is also a great deal of choice and if/or's and vagueness involved in many of those viewings. Destiny is set clear in stone, and though she may be reading the future and the people have made these choices, there is often room for two or three different outcomes. I would say it is more likely she is reading their threads of the pattern than their souls, though in this case those two things could be the same.

 

Destiny is set clear in stone? By who's interpretation? Which philosopher are you rephrencing there?

 

Her visions are exact--people may interpret them in different ways, but that means nothing. When she knews, she knows, and when she doesn't its opinion, and whatever result happens is the one her vision procliamed.

 

Dreams show futures which may occur, decisions, actions, can alter them. What Min sees occurs, whether people understand them beforehand or not.

 

All by evil forces with exceptional power, and the Finns are not particularly friendly either...

 

To be not friendly, is not to be evil. And the rest were not done only by evil powers. Any of the Dreamers have the power to steal souls--they choose not to, but they have it. So too have we seen ter'angreal capable of that, which means any channeler with the skill could manage it.

 

The point being manipulating souls requires no great mystical ability, or evil intent. Its open to anyone with the skill--and as such the soul is no sacred seperate thing, but rather another aspect of a persons reality, not any more special than a brain is.

 

How do you explain technology or even ter'angreals then?  How is that linked to the soul?

 

Technology is not. Ter'angreal may be, at least those that can draw on the power themselves. Its not a huge leap, the Nym are living ter'angreal with seemingly active souls--if that can be managed, why not soul-like apparatices in normal ter'angreal? Indeed, if souls are simply another aspect of a person with no mystical elements then logically one should be able to emulate its effects without the presence of a living mind. It would merely be applying the correct forces.

 

Also, if it is all about the soul, what about souls of different species?  How do souls of ogiers, humans, wolves, etc work?

 

I belive i addressed wolves, whose souls seem to exist partially in TAR at all times. The same goes for all wild creatures, yet not domesticated ones. Perhaps wild creatures souls expand further than domesticated ones.

 

As for Ogier, they are of a parallel reality, and we've already seen other evidence that their souls don't touch this world in the same way--for instance Loial doesn't get infected with Rand's dream in tDR, or that Min can't read Ogier.

[Bela]

Min claims they have always come true, and that may be the case, but it doesn't mean they always will. There is also a great deal of choice and if/or's and vagueness involved in many of those viewings. Destiny is set clear in stone, and though she may be reading the future and the people have made these choices, there is often room for two or three different outcomes. I would say it is more likely she is reading their threads of the pattern than their souls, though in this case those two things could be the same.

 

Destiny is set clear in stone? By who's interpretation? Which philosopher are you rephrencing there?

 

Her visions are exact--people may interpret them in different ways, but that means nothing. When she knews, she knows, and when she doesn't its opinion, and whatever result happens is the one her vision procliamed.

 

Dreams show futures which may occur, decisions, actions, can alter them. What Min sees occurs, whether people understand them beforehand or not.

 

All by evil forces with exceptional power, and the Finns are not particularly friendly either...

 

To be not friendly, is not to be evil. And the rest were not done only by evil powers. Any of the Dreamers have the power to steal souls--they choose not to, but they have it. So too have we seen ter'angreal capable of that, which means any channeler with the skill could manage it.

 

The point being manipulating souls requires no great mystical ability, or evil intent. Its open to anyone with the skill--and as such the soul is no sacred seperate thing, but rather another aspect of a persons reality, not any more special than a brain is.

 

 

When she knows something it is never 100%. She KNEW she would fall in love with Rand and two other women would as well, but had no clue who. Who is to say that those two women could not have changed. Perhaps Elayne could have been swapped with Faile, or Aviendha with Sulin. The point is, Min interprets the images but never knows how they will play out. She may see someone die by hanging, but not why, or how, or when or whether it is with a rope, a sock or a belt. I wouldn't say that is EXACT.

 

Those people may be able to affect the souls but they choose not to, why, because it is a breach of everything. I would still maintain that anything associated with altering, ripping, stealing or manipulating souls, would be the highest evil and the greatest crime. Any CHANNELER could possibly manage it, but would they? It's a great big coulda, woulda, shoulda that is based on opinion.

 

The destiny thing is my interpretation, I hardly need a philoshopher's opinion in order to speak my own now do I? Whether destiny is real or not, the end effect of it has always been set in stone. If Rand loses at TG, the world will end, but it doesn't matter how it is done. Whether he went to the waste or the two rivers, each choice effects how it plays out. That is my whole point, you claim these people read the souls with 100% accuracy, yet I have never seen any more than vague interpretations. About the clearest foretelling we have got is that Mat will marry 'The Daughter of the Nine Moons', and for all you know a princess in Shara could share that title.

[Swigaro]

A great theory Luckers.  Would you say then, since the soul is represented by a thread in the pattern in the WoT, that Min and the Finns are essentially, through their respective powers, able to look down the thread, stealling a glimps of what has not yet been woven?  After all, it would stand to reason that the portion of an individual soul's thread that has not yet been woven into the pattern would still be somewhere. 

 

As far as Mordeth/Fain, is it possible that he is able to effect this same portion of a soul's thread.  Could it be that the fall of Ahridol and the creation of Mashadar is the pattern's reaction to threads not being where they were supposed to be?  Could Mashadar be, literally threads that were never woven?  Am I streaching?

[General Cauthon]

When she knows something it is never 100%. She KNEW she would fall in love with Rand and two other women would as well, but had no clue who.

 

And exactly that happened. She fell in love with Rand, and two other did as well. I'd say that is 100%.

 

Who is to say that those two women could not have changed. Perhaps Elayne could have been swapped with Faile, or Aviendha with Sulin. The point is, Min interprets the images but never knows how they will play out. She may see someone die by hanging, but not why, or how, or when or whether it is with a rope, a sock or a belt. I wouldn't say that is EXACT.

 

Min never saw who the two others were, so even if it changed 1000 times, what Min saw was still 100% correct.

If Min saw someone who were to die by hanging, it would still be 100% correct whatever they were hanged with.

 

The reason Min cannot see everything that is going to happen to everyone she meets, is that she only sees the things that definitively ARE going to happen, therefore she is always correct.

 

The only exception is her viewing of Egwene(Gawyn marrying her, or breaking her neck), and at that time, Min stated that it wasn't clear which of the two would happen, but that one of them would.

[mb]

Min's ability & the Aelfinn; their function does not seem similar.

The Aelfinn are able to know more than just the visitor's future; and they seem to read the mind, not see an image.

With Min, an image comes up.

 

Wolfbrothers, Min's ability, Dreamers/Dreamwalkers, channelers, etc; the soul to me is not the unifying principle (if there is one) since the soul of each seems different.  If there is a unifying principle, I would think that it would be that each are a gift.

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Also, if it is all about the soul, what about souls of different species?  How do souls of ogiers, humans, wolves, etc work?

 

As for Ogier, they are of a parallel reality, and we've already seen other evidence that their souls don't touch this world in the same way--for instance Loial doesn't get infected with Rand's dream in tDR, or that Min can't read Ogier.

But then what about the Ogier who Verin read in the Stedding? The one that Machin Shin (sp) had got hold of?

 

He was cold, empty. IIRC, and that's a big if, Verin says something about the soul... If I'm right, how does this relate to the whole "Ogier souls not touching the world" aspect of your theory?

 

The simpler answer to Min being unable to read Loial, is that she can only read humans.

[ROB_88]

Also, if it is all about the soul, what about souls of different species?  How do souls of ogiers, humans, wolves, etc work?

 

As for Ogier, they are of a parallel reality, and we've already seen other evidence that their souls don't touch this world in the same way--for instance Loial doesn't get infected with Rand's dream in tDR, or that Min can't read Ogier.

But then what about the Ogier who Verin read in the Stedding? The one that Machin Shin (sp) had got hold of?

 

He was cold, empty. IIRC, and that's a big if, Verin says something about the soul... If I'm right, how does this relate to the whole "Ogier souls not touching the world" aspect of your theory?

 

he didn't sactually say that they don't touch the world at all, like you interpreted it, he said that they don't touch the world in THE SAME WAY. they are still there normally, just a bit different.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

he didn't sactually say that they don't touch the world at all, like you interpreted it, he said that they don't touch the world in THE SAME WAY. they are still there normally, just a bit different.

Sure.

 

But, Verin is struck by the oddness of the situation. It, to me, implies that Ogier have been delved/checked by Aes Sedai before and that this "emptiness" is something odd. Had it happened before, it would have been noted.

 

So, I find it a little odd that Aes Sedai could well have been around Ogier for a considerable lenght of time, yet not commented on their souls and the oddness of said souls...

[Luckers]

When she knows something it is never 100%. She KNEW she would fall in love with Rand and two other women would as well, but had no clue who. Who is to say that those two women could not have changed. Perhaps Elayne could have been swapped with Faile, or Aviendha with Sulin. The point is, Min interprets the images but never knows how they will play out. She may see someone die by hanging, but not why, or how, or when or whether it is with a rope, a sock or a belt. I wouldn't say that is EXACT.

 

Your speaking of her knowledge of what's coming. We are speaking of her visions being 100% accurate. Whether she understands it or not, her visions comes true. She did not know of Elayne or Aviendha, her visions did not speak of them, they spoke of her sharing her man with two other women, which came out exactly true.

 

Those people may be able to affect the souls but they choose not to, why, because it is a breach of everything. I would still maintain that anything associated with altering, ripping, stealing or manipulating souls, would be the highest evil and the greatest crime. Any CHANNELER could possibly manage it, but would they? It's a great big coulda, woulda, shoulda that is based on opinion.

 

So what? Your speaking of addaptive morality? Is it evil to do this deed?

 

Maybe it is, but the fact remains they can do it, thus your first point, that only evil forces of exceptional power can manipulate souls is utterly void. Any channeler can do it, any dreamer. It may be evil, but thats a completely different (and irrelevant) conversation.

 

The destiny thing is my interpretation, I hardly need a philoshopher's opinion in order to speak my own now do I? Whether destiny is real or not, the end effect of it has always been set in stone. If Rand loses at TG, the world will end, but it doesn't matter how it is done. Whether he went to the waste or the two rivers, each choice effects how it plays out. That is my whole point, you claim these people read the souls with 100% accuracy, yet I have never seen any more than vague interpretations. About the clearest foretelling we have got is that Mat will marry 'The Daughter of the Nine Moons', and for all you know a princess in Shara could share that title.

 

For it being 'your own interpretation' you stated it with a great degree of universiality.

 

As for the rest, I stated that these viewings which always prove 100% accurate could be seen in a persons soul. Your attempts to argue in the negative are void--Mat did marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons--doesn't matter who she is or where she's from doesn't matter, the prophecy never stated that he would marry Tuon, it stated that he would marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and he did. Endgame.

 

You were the one who altered it with your 'interpretation' that the soul required the person viewing it to know everything because of... destiny?

 

A great theory Luckers.  Would you say then, since the soul is represented by a thread in the pattern in the WoT, that Min and the Finns are essentially, through their respective powers, able to look down the thread, stealling a glimps of what has not yet been woven?  After all, it would stand to reason that the portion of an individual soul's thread that has not yet been woven into the pattern would still be somewhere. 

 

Possibly, or else maybe souls inhabit many dimensions, and Min and the Finns see the parts of the soul in mirror worlds, or some such. We simply don't have enough information to know how that abillity works.

 

As far as Mordeth/Fain, is it possible that he is able to effect this same portion of a soul's thread.  Could it be that the fall of Ahridol and the creation of Mashadar is the pattern's reaction to threads not being where they were supposed to be?  Could Mashadar be, literally threads that were never woven?  Am I streaching?

 

I think it more likely given Mashadar appeared after the disapearece of all the citizens of Aridhol that it is made of the souls of those people.

 

But then what about the Ogier who Verin read in the Stedding? The one that Machin Shin (sp) had got hold of?

 

He was cold, empty. IIRC, and that's a big if, Verin says something about the soul... If I'm right, how does this relate to the whole "Ogier souls not touching the world" aspect of your theory?

 

The simpler answer to Min being unable to read Loial, is that she can only read humans.

 

He was cold to touch because he had lost his soul--this is a standard feeling, the same goes for humans. Berelain states that Annoura showed her this when Perrin was hunting Faile in the Wolf Dream.

 

But my point was that Ogier souls do not touch the world in the same way, not that they don't touch the world.Clearly they are a part of the world--just seperate.

 

And I might have gone with the same thing as you--Min only able to read humans, but Rand's dreaming of Callandor also doesn't touch his soul, as it does others. And that he says he only dreams of stedding, which again suggests a difference in the way Ogier souls exist.

 

But, Verin is struck by the oddness of the situation. It, to me, implies that Ogier have been delved/checked by Aes Sedai before and that this "emptiness" is something odd. Had it happened before, it would have been noted.

 

So, I find it a little odd that Aes Sedai could well have been around Ogier for a considerable lenght of time, yet not commented on their souls and the oddness of said souls...

 

Well again, that Ogier's soul had been consumed by Mashadar--it wasn't normal for Ogier, and Verin recognized it for what it was immediately.

 

Aes Sedai can't read souls, the sensation when a person has lost their soul can be felt by anyone who knows what they are looking for, as Berelain shows.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

He was cold to touch because he had lost his soul--this is a standard feeling, the same goes for humans. Berelain states that Annoura showed her this when Perrin was hunting Faile in the Wolf Dream.

 

But my point was that Ogier souls do not touch the world in the same way, not that they don't touch the world.Clearly they are a part of the world--just seperate.

 

And I might have gone with the same thing as you--Min only able to read humans, but Rand's dreaming of Callandor also doesn't touch his soul, as it does others. And that he says he only dreams of stedding, which again suggests a difference in the way Ogier souls exist.

 

.... Well again, that Ogier's soul had been consumed by Mashadar--it wasn't normal for Ogier, and Verin recognized it for what it was immediately.

 

Aes Sedai can't read souls, the sensation when a person has lost their soul can be felt by anyone who knows what they are looking for, as Berelain shows.

Fair enough, just thought it was odd not to mention the Verin-soul thing re the Ogier.

[Luckers]

I didn't think i had too--it wasn't special at all--the Ogier had lost his soul, and had the symptoms of a person who had lost their soul. It didn't reveal anything about the nature of Ogier souls, just that they had them.

[Charlz Fel]

The theory sort of works, but it also has a flavor of redefining "soul" to mean "whatever it has to be to work in all these different situations."  For instance, I'm not convinced that the "soul" would carry much information about a person's future; I would think this has more to do with that person's "thread."

[Thor]

wait, i reread what you wrote, but it makes no sense.  you say everything is to do with the soul.

 

ok, and?  we knew that already.  if things weren't linked to the soul, then heroes would never be reborn, heck then nobody would be reborn.  what exactly are you trying to say?

[Luckers]

The theory sort of works, but it also has a flavor of redefining "soul" to mean "whatever it has to be to work in all these different situations."  For instance, I'm not convinced that the "soul" would carry much information about a person's future; I would think this has more to do with that person's "thread."

 

Redefining it from what? The Judeo-Christian point of view? The Buddhist? The Taoist--because that involves swallowing mercury in order to become immortal.

 

My point is that this is a fictional text. Why would any particular position influence this? And if nothing does, why would this be redefining anything?

 

wait, i reread what you wrote, but it makes no sense.  you say everything is to do with the soul.

 

ok, and?  we knew that already.  if things weren't linked to the soul, then heroes would never be reborn, heck then nobody would be reborn.  what exactly are you trying to say?

 

That more than the cycle of rebrith results from the nature of the soul. Or perhaps it should be better said that the nature of the soul results in more than the simple cycle of rebirth.

 

Incidently, if you knew everything i said already, why does it make no sense?

[Charlz Fel]

The theory sort of works, but it also has a flavor of redefining "soul" to mean "whatever it has to be to work in all these different situations."  For instance, I'm not convinced that the "soul" would carry much information about a person's future; I would think this has more to do with that person's "thread."

 

Redefining it from what? The Judeo-Christian point of view? The Buddhist? The Taoist--because that involves swallowing mercury in order to become immortal.

 

My point is that this is a fictional text. Why would any particular position influence this? And if nothing does, why would this be redefining anything?

 

 

If the soul does not have any separate meaning from outside your theory, then the whole theory is vacuous.  You might as well say, "Hey, I've figured out what all the WoT supernatural powers have in common--they all have to do with flurbs."  What in Randland is a flurb?

 

Note that I am not accusing you of making up a theory like that one.  My impression is that you have taken a word that is used in the WoT, apparently to refer to an entity that does exist within the context of that fictional universe, and then modified/expanded its meaning so that it becomes related to everything you want. 

 

That the soul is related to Machin Shin somehow, seems without doubt.  That it is involved in any mechanism for foretelling the future, is questionable.  We also know of at least one supernatural power, the ability to sense when someone is watching you, that is probably not connected to the soul, since Rand and Liandrin both apparently sensed the eyes of the Grey Man in Fal Dara at the beginning of TGH.