Burning Out

[Angel of Death]

Something I have been thinking about for a while.

 

IIRC someone who has been severed (stilled or gentled) can still sense the sourcee but can no longer touch it, but someone who has been burnt out can no longer sense it. Am I corret in this?

 

If so I think it would unlikely that burning out could be healed. So if it can not, do you think it is at all possible to burn someone out intentionally, leaving no chance of being healed.

 

Also just an after thought, do we know of any man that has been burnt out?

[Luckers]

We know that burning out can be healed, for all that it is different from being stilled. Specifically we know this for three reasons.

 

1. Despite the fact that characters use the term 'stilling' for what Rand did to Irgaine, Sashelle and Ronaile at Dumai's Well's, the fact is that he did not still them. He crushed weaves they were holding in flows of spirit--it was the strain this placed on their channeling ability that severed them. And in context this bears no resemblance to the knife-like weave Nynaeve describes as a 'stilling weave'. In terms of functionality what occured to them is the same as what happens to Aes Sedai who misuse ter'angreal--an outside source places too much strain on their ability searing it out of them. Burning them out. Yet they were healed by Finn.

 

2. Cyndane. Both Lanfear and Moiraine were severed--burned out--by their trip through the doorway. We know this for a number of reasons better detailed in other threads, but the core is Lan's bond was severed on the spot, something only seen in death or being severed--and Moiraine did not die. We also know that Cyndane was healed by a women--again, better detailed in other threads so if you wish to discuss that look them up. End game is Cyndane was burned out, yet healed.

 

3. Egwene states that it is hard to keep the novices from rushing ahead of themselves now there is no nead to fear being burned out. It could be an assumption on the part of the Aes Sedai, but given the implications i doubt it.

 

As for your question...

 

do you think it is at all possible to burn someone out intentionally, leaving no chance of being healed.

 

Rand did so with Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgaine.

 

Also just an after thought, do we know of any man that has been burnt out?

 

It's mentioned in passing several times that many of the Black Tower's recruits have burned themselves out due to the forcing that is the standard method of training.

[metria31183]

 

2. Cyndane. Both Lanfear and Moiraine were severed--burned out--by their trip through the doorway. We know this for a number of reasons better detailed in other threads, but the core is Lan's bond was severed on the spot, something only seen in death or being severed--and Moiraine did not die. We also know that Cyndane was healed by a women--again, better detailed in other threads so if you wish to discuss that look them up. End game is Cyndane was burned out, yet healed.

 

 

 

I disagree with this.  It's never said anywhere that only death or stilling severs a Warders bond.  (Unless RJ has said it somewhere)  It's never stated, but it could be possible that an Aes Sedai could sever the Warder bond herself.  It's hinted that that's not possible though.  But then again, I don't agree with the theory that Cyndane was healed by a woman and that's why she is weaker.

[Mr Ares]

I disagree with this. It's never said anywhere that only death or stilling severs a Warders bond.

No, but we don't know of anything else that can. The only thing supported by evidence is that they were burnt out.

It's never stated, but it could be possible that an Aes Sedai could sever the Warder bond herself.

An AS can dissolve the Warder bond, but we know Moiraine didn't. For one thing, it requires time and effort Moiraine didn't have, and it spares a Warder from the effects of his AS's death, and we know Lan wasn't spared.

But then again, I don't agree with the theory that Cyndane was healed by a woman and that's why she is weaker.

It is the only thing the evidence supports. The only thing we know of that could reduce her strength in the way seen.

[metria31183]

An AS can dissolve the Warder bond, but we know Moiraine didn't. For one thing, it requires time and effort Moiraine didn't have, and it spares a Warder from the effects of his AS's death, and we know Lan wasn't spared.

 

How do we know this?  (I'm not trying to be smart a$$, I genuinly have never heard that before.)  Also, Lan's bond passed immediately to Myrelle.  He was compelled to seek her out right then and there.  I believe it was stated that all this would on the event of her death, but would the same thing have happened if she was stilled?  Unless RJ has said otherwise I think the world of the 'Finns is too different for the "normal" rules to apply 100%.  I know what everybody says the evidence supports, but my gut feeling is that Moiraine was not stilled and that there is something else at work here.  I also think it's a far simpler explanation that Cyndane's loss of strength is a result of the 'Finns price or possibly as punishment for failure from the Dark One.

 

For all that agree with the generally accepted theories, I'm not trying to disuade anybody or stir up old debate.  We can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Mr Ares]

An AS can dissolve the Warder bond, but we know Moiraine didn't. For one thing, it requires time and effort Moiraine didn't have, and it spares a Warder from the effects of his AS's death, and we know Lan wasn't spared.

How do we know this?  (I'm not trying to be smart a$$, I genuinly have never heard that before.)

Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, tough on him.

Lan suffering the effects of her death can be seen in the series. Also, when he meets with Nynaeve in ACoS she Delves him and can feel the effect of it.

Also, Lan's bond passed immediately to Myrelle. He was compelled to seek her out right then and there. I believe it was stated that all this would on the event of her death, but would the same thing have happened if she was stilled?

Yes. As we have seen in the series, death and severing produce the same reaction in those bonded.

I also think it's a far simpler explanation that Cyndane's loss of strength is a result of the 'Finns price or possibly as punishment for failure from the Dark One.

What price? Also, why would Shai'tan impair the effectiveness of one of His tools to no gain to Himself? The mindtrap is punishment and control. Reduction of strength is stupidity.

[metria31183]

What price? Also, why would Shai'tan impair the effectiveness of one of His tools to no gain to Himself? The mindtrap is punishment and control. Reduction of strength is stupidity.

 

When Mat went throught the doorway in Rhuidean, they granted him three requests and extracted a price from him.  The words on his spear say something like "what is asked is given, the price is paid."  (I know that's not the whole verse.)  IIRC, they thought he was foolish for not bargaining before he made is requests.

 

And Cyndane was still very strong in the power relative to the modern Aes Sedai.  Lanfear thought she was strong enough with the Choedan Kal and Rand to challenge the Dark One and the Creator.  It makes sense to me to reduce her strength enough so that she is still strong enough to do what she has too, but not strong enough to challenge.

[Jethro]

 

2. Cyndane. Both Lanfear and Moiraine were severed--burned out--by their trip through the doorway. We know this for a number of reasons better detailed in other threads, but the core is Lan's bond was severed on the spot, something only seen in death or being severed--and Moiraine did not die. We also know that Cyndane was healed by a women--again, better detailed in other threads so if you wish to discuss that look them up. End game is Cyndane was burned out, yet healed.

 

 

I also disagree with this, there is no evidence supporting the idea that Cyndane was Healed by a woman barring her reduced strength, which could be down to several other reasons. My belief is that because she wasnt Healed before she died, Lanfears strength was reduced during the reincarnation process, because Saidin wasnt used to Heal her. I think the Great Lord Healed her, just not with Saidin, and thats why she is weaker. It could also have something to do with the new body, since RJ has said that a channelers strength depends on both the body AND the soul. It is entirely possible that Cyndanes body adds only a little to her souls strength, whereas Lanfears body was incredibly strong.

[Luckers]

I was hoping we could leave Cyndane for the other threads, but i suppose it is relevant.

 

  I know what everybody says the evidence supports, but my gut feeling is that Moiraine was not stilled and that there is something else at work here.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear fell through a ter'angreal channeling wildly, a ter'angreal that subsequently destroyed itself. Even were there no other evidence I'd have said that would pretty much require that they be burned out after all the constant warnings we've had in the books about the dangers of ter'angreal--but the fact is there are. Lan's bond was severed in the instant they fell through, something we know transdimensional travel does not do. Since that was all the was going on, and represented the only thing we could suggest to have caused it other than being burned out, and because being burned out and dying are the only things that we've seen cause the severing of the bond, we must conclude that it is that.

 

In addition there is Cyndane's reduced strength, again something only seen when severed. So we have a situation that is perfectly garunteed to burn someone out by everything we've ever been told about ter'angreal, and then two events that we've only ever seen occur when someone was severed from the source.

 

A final piece of evidence can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially prove that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

 

But alright, you raised the other options.

 

I also think it's a far simpler explanation that Cyndane's loss of strength is a result of the 'Finns price

 

There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

or possibly as punishment for failure from the Dark One.

 

and also, in a later post you added

 

And Cyndane was still very strong in the power relative to the modern Aes Sedai.  Lanfear thought she was strong enough with the Choedan Kal and Rand to challenge the Dark One and the Creator.  It makes sense to me to reduce her strength enough so that she is still strong enough to do what she has too, but not strong enough to challenge.

 

We know that Cyndane was in a lot of trouble when she was transmigrated. Attacking Rand against orders, going off on her own, and so on and so forth… so the suggestion was that the decline in power resulted from the Dark One’s anger. Now, even if you accept that the Dark One could do this—and there is no evidence of anything of the sort—this makes very little sense. For starters, Cyndane was immediately bound by a cour’souvra. This ensured complete control of Cyndane by the Shadow.

 

This is where it begins to make no sense. The Dark One has shown that he has a high appreciation of the value of his Chosen’s strength and proficiency at channeling. RJ has even commented on how little he trusts Third Age channelers, so here is the question: Why would the Dark One hamstring himself by weakening Cyndane? At this stage he has total control of Cyndane; she is effectively nothing more than a tool, and it makes no sense for the Dark One to limit the effectiveness of that tool, especially when he has already punished her by trapping her soul.

 

Some people argue that the Dark One is so alien that normal conceptions of common sense don’t apply; and they are partially correct. Yet when it comes to his agenda’s, and his beliefs (that Second Age channelers are more useful) the Dark One is not a fool. There is a pattern of logic that he does indeed follow, and under that pattern it makes no sense for him to have reduced Cyndane’s strength.

 

Jethro raises the third argument.

 

It could also have something to do with the new body, since RJ has said that a channelers strength depends on both the body AND the soul. It is entirely possible that Cyndanes body adds only a little to her souls strength, whereas Lanfears body was incredibly strong.

 

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen. However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and most importantly Aran’gar retained their strength and connection to the Source? If Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—then we know that the other Recycled Forsaken strength’s were all exactly the same as what they had been before. Moreover, if this aspect of channeling were a function of the body and not the soul, than how is it possible that Aran’gar still channeled saidin?

 

The exact degree of the sameness of the others abilities shows it--the channeling state remains constant throughout the transmigration process. Whatever influence the body has on channeling, in cases of transmigration it does not influence strength.

 

I also disagree with this, there is no evidence supporting the idea that Cyndane was Healed by a woman barring her reduced strength, which could be down to several other reasons. My belief is that because she wasnt Healed before she died, Lanfears strength was reduced during the reincarnation process, because Saidin wasnt used to Heal her. I think the Great Lord Healed her, just not with Saidin, and thats why she is weaker.

 

Ok, so aside from the issue that we have no evidence the Dark One could do this, or that his doing it would make Lanfear weaker... why? Why would the Dark One bestir himself when a simply dream message to a darkfriend Rebel Sister (such as the one that told Delana Aran'gar was coming) could have had her travelling to Shayol Ghoul to perform the healing. It could be done with in an hour.

 

Also too, why do we need to postulate something that we have no evidence for when we can explain it perfectly with what we know. Occam's Razor and all that. What reason do we have to doubt that a sister did it? Is it the srength thing? That Lanfear went from top strength to still insanely strong strength, whilst Leane and Siuan seemed to decline by much more than that? The key word there is seemed--here, consider this.

 

Firstly, how much did Cyndane lose? We know that she is stronger than Graendal, and that even if Graendal’s beliefs about her own strengths are self-delusions, as RJ suggests most of the Forsaken’s beliefs about their own strength comparative to others are, we still know that Graendal is very strong—indeed, without the angreal Graendal was still stronger than Someryn, who had never encountered anyone stronger than she amongst the thousands of Aiel Wise Ones who could channel.

 

For very rough perception, lets say that Lanfear was a hundred. If Graendal is an 85 or an 80, Lanfear could have lost 10 to 15 units of strength, and still be stronger than Graendal. At 85 there would not be many women the world over who topped Graendal. But is this comparable to what Siuan and Leane lost?

 

Now, the first thing that we must remember in dealing with Siuan and Leane is that there situation is distorted by the Aes Sedai social hierarchy. People speak of them having lost ‘half their strength’ citing their own comments as evidence, but lets actually have a look at what they say.

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

So, what can we state absolutely about their new strength? Well, as of CoT we can state that their strength is above the cut off strength for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Siuan’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the twenty-two Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Siuan.

 

Why is this significant? Because if Siuan and Leane are still within the range of Aes Sedai strength than a) they did not lose more than half their strength, and b) their strength attains an immediate judgment within the social hierarchy in reference to their old strength and position.

 

Lets take at what that hierarchy and judgment reflects. So, the social hierarchy represents a very limited range of strengths. According to RJ [insert proper quote] the Aes Sedai cut off point is at the 36.2 percentile which establishes the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Siuan’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

 

Again, on a very rough chart lets say for the purpose of consideration that Siuan’s former strength was 60, that means the social hierarchy range includes less than 30% of the range of channeling strengths. Therefore, even a minute loss of strength would result in a fairly large decrease of social standing. If Siuan and Leane lost the same degree of strength as Lanfear (10 to 15 units) than yes, they would experience the loss of social standing stated. Beyond that, keeping in mind that RJ has stated that the Aes Sedai strength distribution is not even it also allows for the average to be roughly half way between their new and old strengths.

 

At this stage many people raise the fact that Siuan was unable to lift Gareth Bryne, thereby proving what a massive decrease in strength she suffered, yet in that exact sentence Siuan goes on to admit that lifting things with the power were amongst the hardest things that could be done. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

 

 

 

Now, I agree the idea of the Dark One remains possible, but its not very likely. That Cyndane was burned out and healed by a woman seems much more likely.

 

 

 

 

[Jethro]

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen. However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and most importantly Aran’gar retained their strength and connection to the Source? If Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—then we know that the other Recycled Forsaken strength’s were all exactly the same as what they had been before. Moreover, if this aspect of channeling were a function of the body and not the soul, than how is it possible that Aran’gar still channeled saidin?

 

The exact degree of the sameness of the others abilities shows it--the channeling state remains constant throughout the transmigration process. Whatever influence the body has on channeling, in cases of transmigration it does not influence strength.

 

Moridin and Osan'gars bodies are from men of less-than-middle age, meaning they are just as likely to be very strong as, say Taim, who is almost as strong as Rand, or Narishma, who was born with the spark. Despite the idea of Aes Sedai killing the ability to channel out of men, Rand already has plenty of very strong Ashaman who could easily have been the same age as the Gars were in their current bodies' original life. Their bodies could be just as strong in channeling as the bodies of Aginors and Ishamaels going off Taim being potentially as strong as Rand himself. Aran'gars strength cannot be commented on because for one thing we rarely get her PoVs and for another there is no way at all to ever judge a mans strength unless he is channeling, and even then he could be holding back. Aran'gar could very well be weaker than Balthamel was, we have no evidence for or against.

 

 

Ok, so aside from the issue that we have no evidence the Dark One could do this, or that his doing it would make Lanfear weaker... why?

 

The same reason women-women Healing makes them weaker. Because he didnt use Saidin. We have as much evidence for the Dark One being able to do it as against, if we look at Ishamael Healing Lews Therins insanity. Different, granted, but both a form of Healing. Theres no reason to think it cant be done with the True Power.

[pxnsolid]

Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword

 

this is not an indication of the power holding them back, as it is a firey sword, and fire is a no no to the 'finns. it could have been the power, or it could have been the fire that they shyed away from.

[Roxinos]

this is not an indication of the power holding them back, as it is a firey sword, and fire is a no no to the 'finns. it could have been the power, or it could have been the fire that they shyed away from.

 

Whether it was the Power directly or not is a moot point. The Power allows for people to create fire. The Finns don't like fire. QED.

[Dmitri]

Moridin and Osan'gars bodies are from men of less-than-middle age, meaning they are just as likely to be very strong as, say Taim, who is almost as strong as Rand, or Narishma, who was born with the spark. Despite the idea of Aes Sedai killing the ability to channel out of men, Rand already has plenty of very strong Ashaman who could easily have been the same age as the Gars were in their current bodies' original life. Their bodies could be just as strong in channeling as the bodies of Aginors and Ishamaels going off Taim being potentially as strong as Rand himself.

 

So, you want to say that finding a new body for Ishy/Moridin was that easy - for a channeler equal to Rand (and, by coincedence, that being the top level possible)?

Wow!

Then why should the Great Lord worry - there's a number of such bodies running around.

Maybe you think again?

[Jethro]

Its only one body and considering the ammount of Third Agers who are considerably strong tehn yes, I do think it could have been that easy.For all we know they might have had that body in a stasis box.

 

Then why should the Great Lord worry - there's a number of such bodies running around.

 

Having strong channelers doesnt ensure victory. You could say the same about Rand, why should he worry when he has both male and female channelers? There ARE a number of such bodies about at the moment. Taim, Logain, Narishma, Flynn, all of considerable strength. Whats wrong with it?

[Dmitri]

It is entirely possible that Cyndanes body adds only a little to her souls strength, whereas Lanfears body was incredibly strong.

 

Firstly, do you think that the body adds some Power to the channellers' level?

Do you then have any evidence? A quote? So far it sounds way too wrong.

If to follow this idea, then Ishy/Moridin's new body must have the same "amount" of power as the old one? And Rand/LTT's bodies should be equal cause they're on the top level?

Doesn't compute...

[Jethro]

Firstly, do you think that the body adds some Power to the channellers' level?

Do you then have any evidence? A quote? So far it sounds way too wrong.

If to follow this idea, then Ishy/Moridin's new body must have the same "amount" of power as the old one? And Rand/LTT's bodies should be equal cause they're on the top level?

Doesn't compute

 

RJ himself has said that the body of a channeler influences the channeling strength. Rand and Moridins bodies being so strong isnt at all unusual in the current time becuase there are a number of Third age male channelers who are almost as strong. The reason none make it quite to the same level is because their souls are so strong in the Power, as in, they kept their original power level. About adding strength, if as RJ has said, a body can influence the strength of the channeler, it stands to reason that you add the souls strength to the bodys in order to get the actual strength. How else could the body affect strength. RJ here says a suitable body is required for reincarnation, meaning a body with the channeling gene. Here is the quote.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

[Jethro]

Well, my theory is that someone with the ability to learn to channel (but not the spark) has a body that could channel but a soul that doesnt. And a person with the spark is born with both a channeler body and channeler soul.

[Jethro]

A gene is genetic, ie of the body. If there is any sort of channeling gene, then that alone shows that the body can affect strength.

[Swigaro]

So you think i'm right???

 

Body effects strength.

Soul determines the existence of the ability to channel

 

 

??????

 

I would think that the opposite would be the case.  Soul determines strength, body determines the ability to channel.

 

Look at it this way...

 

We have 4 individuals who have been transmigrated.  Of those 4, three are exactly the same strength they were previously, not of almost the same strength, exactly the same strength.  The one that is not as strong, I will deal with in a moment.  If only one of the 4 were at the same strength level, you might have a point, but, since only about 1% of the population has the ability to channel (as per RJ's statements) it seems highly unlikely that they were able to find so many suitable bodies of exactly the correct level of strength.  In addition, as women are generally weaker in the power than men, the fact that Aran'gar is at the same level, post-transmigration would mean that they had to find a female body that was exceptionally strong.  The truth is that there aren't tons of powerful channelers running around.  Frankly, there aren't tons of channelers at all.  Many of our main characters are, and the books spend a good amount of time focusing on them, but they are still a comparatively small group, when compared to the population as a whole.  Remember also, that the DO doesn't have the entire world from which to pull these bodies.  They come, almost exclusively from Trolloc raids in the Boarderlands.  He does not use Forsaken for these "recruiting" missions, or the other Forsaken wouldn't be so surprised when they met the new forsaken. 

 

Now look at Cyndane.  We have seen exactly one thing that causes a decrease in strength anywhere in the books.  If a channeler is severed, and healed by someone of the same gender, their power is reduced.  Technically, we can only say for certain that if a woman is severed and healed by a woman, her power is reduced.  We can speculate that the same would hold true for men healing men, but as it has not happened in the text, we can't be sure.  There is nothing else that we have seen effect a channeler's strength.  Since we know that Lanfear was last seen doing something that would, by all we have seen in the text all but gaurentee her being severed, if not severed and killed, and we then see her transmigrated with a reduction in strength, the only logical explanation, supported by the text is that she was healed by a woman. 

 

As far as the suggestion that the DO healed her himself...  The fact that she was reduced in strength would, to me be an argument against.  When the bore was drilled, they were looking for a new power source that could be used by men or women equally.  What they were sensing, I believe was the True Power.  As TP can be used by men or women, I would expect it to heal either to full strength.  This is just speculation, of course. 

 

Regardless, because of the insanely low odds of finding bodies precisely the same strength as three of the most powerful channelers ever, I am going to say that the strength of a channeler is not determined by the body (genetics), rather that strength and alignment (saidin vs saidar) is determined by the soul.  I would further speculate that that is the very reason why severing uses a weave of spirit.  It is an attack on the very soul of the channeler.

 

 

[Jethro]

I think both body and soul can give the ability, and both can also influence strength. We know for definite that the soul can give both, Rand/Lews Therin being the perfect example. The same soul but in different bodies, yet born each time with the same power level. And I think that Rand was born with a body with the maximum channeling potential you can be born with; even though he wasnt Ta'veren in his mothers womb, his spun-out soul, the Dragon, makes him the Champion of the Light, and I doubt the Pattern would allow its savior to be born with a body that could hold his abilities back.

 

Morgase is a good example, I think, of someone who, if I am right, has a body with the channeling gene but a soul without the ability to channel. Hence, she can actually channel, but only the tiniest amount.

 

So yes, I think if someone is born with the channeler ability in both body and soul, the power level they get from both will stack.

 

We have 4 individuals who have been transmigrated.  Of those 4, three are exactly the same strength they were previously, not of almost the same strength, exactly the same strength.  The one that is not as strong, I will deal with in a moment.  If only one of the 4 were at the same strength level, you might have a point, but, since only about 1% of the population has the ability to channel (as per RJ's statements) it seems highly unlikely that they were able to find so many suitable bodies of exactly the correct level of strength.  In addition, as women are generally weaker in the power than men, the fact that Aran'gar is at the same level, post-transmigration would mean that they had to find a female body that was exceptionally strong.  The truth is that there aren't tons of powerful channelers running around.  Frankly, there aren't tons of channelers at all.  Many of our main characters are, and the books spend a good amount of time focusing on them, but they are still a comparatively small group, when compared to the population as a whole.  Remember also, that the DO doesn't have the entire world from which to pull these bodies.  They come, almost exclusively from Trolloc raids in the Boarderlands.  He does not use Forsaken for these "recruiting" missions, or the other Forsaken wouldn't be so surprised when they met the new forsaken.

 

There is no evidence to show that Aran'gar has the same strength she had in a male body. We have had very little from her PoV-wise, and even in those PoVs the situations didnt cause her to think of her channeling ability like Cyndane did at the Cleansing. Cyndane noted her reduction in power only because Alivia seemed stronger than her even before she was weakened, which Cyndane thought was impossible.

 

Regarding Moridin and Osan'gar. You say it would be hard to find that many people born with the right power levels. Theres only two of them! And two is an easy number to find in a time when the average channeler strength seems to be on the up again. There are several male Third Ager channelers of "incredible" strength that have showed up since Rand announced his amnesty as I have already said. Is it really so hard to believe the Shadow found just two that matched in strength? They only found two, both male; the female body they found-Cyndanes-could have been one with a lesser channeler ability hence the reduction in strength. Im guna requote abit of the passage I posted from RJ earlier.

 

It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

The highlighted bit is the key. Moridins body was on hand for some other reason. That reason, I think, was because the Great Lord wanted a new body for his Nae'blis just in case, one with the best channeling potential they could find. They found it, maybe after a hell of a lot of looking and some unknown act of luck or chance, yet when they found it they put it in a stasis box and left it waiting. Also, note that RJ says there are other constraints and whatnot that he may want to use in the books later. That interview is dated in 2004. Later is now. It seems to me that this discussion is looking at those points he wanted to surprise us with; Cyndanes reduction in power levels being a result of her body not being as strong as Lanfears.

[Mr Ares]

When Mat went throught the doorway in Rhuidean, they granted him three requests and extracted a price from him.

And they held Lanfear prisoner. They had no reason to bargain with her.

It makes sense to me to reduce her strength enough so that she is still strong enough to do what she has too, but not strong enough to challenge.

She can't challenge when mindtrapped.

 

RJ has said that a channelers strength depends on both the body AND the soul.

Not as far as I'm aware. Quotes?

 

Theres no reason to think it cant be done with the True Power.

No reason to believe Shai'tan knows how, nor to believe He would if He did.

 

Not sure i can agree with Lanfear being healed by a woman. Suian suffered a drastic drop in strength. Lander/Cyndane had a drop in strength' date=' but not that drastic. She was still above Graendal. Just not as strong as she was.[/quote']Firstly, Luckers addressed this. Secondly, we do not know whether the strngth loss is a fixed amount, fixed percentage, random, can be varied due to refinements in the weave (although still not being able to give back 100% unless done by a man), so we cannot rule out it being a woman on the grounds of the strength lost, nor do we even know exactly how much strength was lost in either case, just guesswork. Thirdly, the only thing we know if in the books that can cause a strength loss of the sort seen in Cyndane is Severing followed by same-sex Healing. That is thus the only solution with any evidence backing it, and anything else is unsupported guesswork.

 

One theory i did read, which looked very interesting was that Lanfear (as Mierin) had gone through the twisted stone doorway before, and requested 3 things. Which included bring the strongest women, being the most beautiful women (and a 3rd i dont know), and it cost her the love of her life (Lews Therin). And its why she died going through (as your not allowed to go there more than once), and why Moiraine was only held. But when resurected by the dark one, she was returned to her former strength.

That theory is utter crap. Aside from the fact there is absolutely nothing to suggest it was the case, which is always a bad sign, it is impossible for her to have died on the way through as she was held prisoner. Also, Mat was unable to make a return journey, he didn't die trying. There is nothing of any worth about that theory.

 

RJ himself has said that the body of a channeler influences the channeling strength.

Again, quotes or it didn't happen.

if as RJ has said, a body can influence the strength of the channeler

He has stated that there is a genetic component, but nothing about it relating to strength, as far as I know.

 

1. Can all souls channel or can only a select few?

2. Do these channeling souls vary in strength, or is the body the only determinant? (ie if Daigain were to inhabit cadsuanes body...then she would be that strong?)

3. If there are different types of souls (channeling/non channeling)...does that make them something other than human??? Or are they just a more enlighted version of a human soul?

Few, soul is only determinant (Daigian would be Daigian strength in any body), no, all human souls, just with different abilities (same with wolfsiblings, etc.)

 

A gene is genetic, ie of the body. If there is any sort of channeling gene, then that alone shows that the body can affect strength.

In the same way a light switch affects brightness - on or off, but not how bright the bulb is.

 

Body effects strength.

Soul determines the existence of the ability to channel

Other way round. Body is ability to channel, soul is everything else - saidar or saidin, Talents, strength, all these appear to be unchanging between bodies/incarnations.

 

There is no evidence to show that Aran'gar has the same strength she had in a male body.

We have no reason to suspect any change, either up or down, from her or the other guys. It has gone completely without mention, and a change is the sort of thing which is likely to bring mention.

 

Regarding Moridin and Osan'gar. You say it would be hard to find that many people born with the right power levels. Theres only two of them!

They still don't have access to a wide pool of "recruits" - whoever they can capture on raids - and in that limited pool, they not only have to find people with the channeling gene (1% of the population, so not brilliant chances of even finding one), and have those people at the exact same strength as they were before - when mens final strength isn't known until they reach it.

And two is an easy number to find in a time when the average channeler strength seems to be on the up again.

One person in every hundred, with strength distributed along a bell curve, and from this it is easy to find someone right at the very top, and someone else not far below? If anything, surely the inclusion of Asha'man of any strength, including the very weak, would reduce the average, given that beofre they started there were only a few very strong channelers? And we still have no reason to believe strength is determined by body.

 

It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

The highlighted bit is the key. Moridins body was on hand for some other reason. That reason, I think, was because the Great Lord wanted a new body for his Nae'blis just in case, one with the best channeling potential they could find.

What? It says Moridin got the body he did by chance. But according to you, he got it because there was a body in reserve for him? Despite RJ contradicting that, saying there was no stockpile, and you'll only get one quickly if there happens to be one to hand? According to you, it wasn't chance, it was deliberate. According to RJ, it was chance. According to RJ you only get one quick if it was there for another reason, according to you it was there for that very reason. RJ wrote this series, not you.

[Nightstrike]

Other way round. Body is ability to channel, soul is everything else - saidar or saidin, Talents, strength, all these appear to be unchanging between bodies/incarnations.

Actually, I think (could I be mistaken?) RJ said that different reincarnations/same soul could have different Talents. Don't know for sure about the strength, but I believe you're right. I think the same soul has the same strength in different reincarnations - provided ability to channel, of course.

 

Edit: I looked for the "different Talents/same soul" quote, but couldn't find it anywhere. Don't know how I got that idea. Must be a mistake of mine.

 

 

 

[Jethro]

No reason to believe Shai'tan knows how, nor to believe He would if He did.

 

Or to believe he would if he could? You're saying Shaitan wouldnt Heal Cyndane from being burnt out if he could? Where the hell do you come up with logic like that? Why would he bother bringing her back if he wasnt guna make sure she could still channel? Explain how she can still channel then. Explain her weakness. I have already, a point which you avoided answering Ares. She wasnt Healed with Saidin, she was Healed with the True Power I reckon. Dont say there is no evidence for it because there is none against either. There is as much reason to believe it as there is to believe she was Healed by a woman. Woman-woman significantly reduces strength, yet it has been noted that Cyndanes drop wasnt as significant as it was for Siuan. I would also say that the AoLers-and Shaitan-are likely to know that she would be weaker if Healed by a woman so my thinking is that she couldnt be Healed by a man, so when she was still dead Shaitan Healed her with the True Power and slammed her soul into a new body.

 

Quote

Regarding Moridin and Osan'gar. You say it would be hard to find that many people born with the right power levels. Theres only two of them!

They still don't have access to a wide pool of "recruits" - whoever they can capture on raids - and in that limited pool, they not only have to find people with the channeling gene (1% of the population, so not brilliant chances of even finding one), and have those people at the exact same strength as they were before - when mens final strength isn't known until they reach it.

Quote

And two is an easy number to find in a time when the average channeler strength seems to be on the up again.

One person in every hundred, with strength distributed along a bell curve, and from this it is easy to find someone right at the very top, and someone else not far below? If anything, surely the inclusion of Asha'man of any strength, including the very weak, would reduce the average, given that beofre they started there were only a few very strong channelers? And we still have no reason to believe strength is determined by body.

 

You are using facts that dont necessarily hold up your side of the arguement. Saying the average strength being low is the reason why Osan'gar and Moridins body cant be as strong as I think they are is, as people say on here, MOOT. The average is a statistic, not a rule, and for an average to be average you can expect some to be higher and some to be lower than the average. You yourself noted the raids where they get these bodies, and then you say they dont have access to a pool of bodies. RJ did say Moridins body was "on hand" for some "other reason", but that it was pure chance that that particular body was available when Moridin was to be introduced. Using the fact that it was down to chance as a counterarguement for the idea is a good example of a crap arguement basically Ares. It was a factor, but not the deciding factor, otherwise Moridin wouldnt be in that body. And you also say that 1% of the population can channel using that as another counterarguement, yet as already said the Shadow use Trolloc raids for gettings bodies and it stands to reason that the Shadow tests those bodies for the ability to channel before sending them to Thakandar. I think in the time the Shadow has been sending these raids out they had to have found some bodies with great channeling potential. Once they found a body with that much potential, whack it in a stasis box (which the Shadow do have) and then its waiting to be used.

 

So Ares, are you going to actually come up with a real arguement against the theory? Are you going to provide any sort of quote or real reasoning for the debate, or simply disagree even more because it wasn't you that came up with it? Granted RJ didnt say outright that the body affects channeler strength, but he didnt say that for a reason, the reason being he was going to use the info as a surprise for us when Cyndane turns up. Thats my theory anyway, if you disagree Ares its fine but if you're guna just disagree for the sake of it without providing any real evidence against, and STILL not come up with any ideas of your own that might fit better (BIG SURPRISE) then you shouldnt be posting in this thread, as it hinders the discussion and on several occasions it has led to bickering.

 

You may note that I am holding up two ideas that might contradict each other. Cyndane not being Healed by Saidin being the reason for her weaker state, and her body being weaker than her original being the reason. I am merely looking at multiple possibilities here since I can actually handle the idea that one of my ideas might be wrong, that is all.

[Mr Ares]

Actually, I think (could I be mistaken?) RJ said that different reincarnations/same soul could have different Talents.

Well, things like wolfsiblings won't be available in some Ages. Also, in the resurrected Chosen, we haven't seen any changes in abilities, so it would appear to be constant.

 

No reason to believe Shai'tan knows how, nor to believe He would if He did.

Or to believe he would if he could? You're saying Shaitan wouldnt Heal Cyndane from being burnt out if he could? Where the hell do you come up with logic like that? Why would he bother bringing her back if he wasnt guna make sure she could still channel? Explain how she can still channel then. Explain her weakness.

Simple. But, as you are too, I think I might need to make use of really big letters: She was Healed by a woman. We know there are women who can Heal it, we do not know if any TP users know. We do not know if it is possible with the TP. We do not know what side-effects, if any, would result from such a thing - it could be a bit more severe than a little loss of strength. The Rand-Moridin link is the only instance of OP/TP contact in the series. That's working out well, isn't it? Wouldn't it be great if Cyndane nearly threw up every time she grasped the Source? If Shai'tan knows how, He might also know what, if any, side-effects are to be expected, and if those side-effects are not to His likeing then He has good reason to avoid doing it. Now, given that the one example in the series of the two coming into contact is not good news, given that mixing OP and TP is never referenced as a good idea, then is it really so hard to assume that it might, just might, be bad? No, given that that is what the text (you remember that, don't you? It's that thing you were ignoring when you started theorising) says. So, we have no reason to believe He knows how to do it, and good reason to believe that even if it was known, He would still get a woman to do it, and the loss of strength is consistent with a woman on woman Healing. All in all, we have no reason to file this theory anywhere other than under crackpot.

She wasnt Healed with Saidin

If she was, she would be as strong as she was. Saidar, however, would leave her weakened, the only thing we know of that causes a weakness of the sort seen here, thus saidar Healing is the only thing with any support in the books. Thus, saidar, most likely.

Woman-woman significantly reduces strength, yet it has been noted that Cyndanes drop wasnt as significant as it was for Siuan.

Given the list of things we don't know - such as how much Siuan lost, how much Cyndane lost, whether the loss is a fixed amount or fixed percent, whether it can vary, etc., etc., as I mentioned previously, I would say this point is utterly worthless.

I would also say that the AoLers-and Shaitan-are likely to know that she would be weaker if Healed by a woman

Given that such Healing wasn't known in the AoL, how the F*** would they know that? What an utterly stupid and ridiculous point.

 

Regarding Moridin and Osan'gar. You say it would be hard to find that many people born with the right power levels. Theres only two of them!

They still don't have access to a wide pool of "recruits" - whoever they can capture on raids - and in that limited pool, they not only have to find people with the channeling gene (1% of the population, so not brilliant chances of even finding one), and have those people at the exact same strength as they were before - when mens final strength isn't known until they reach it.

 

And two is an easy number to find in a time when the average channeler strength seems to be on the up again.

One person in every hundred, with strength distributed along a bell curve, and from this it is easy to find someone right at the very top, and someone else not far below? If anything, surely the inclusion of Asha'man of any strength, including the very weak, would reduce the average, given that beofre they started there were only a few very strong channelers? And we still have no reason to believe strength is determined by body.

You are using facts that dont necessarily hold up your side of the arguement.

No, you are struggling to comprehend what my argument is. Or maybe you're just strawmanning.

Saying the average strength being low is the reason why Osan'gar and Moridins body cant be as strong as I think they are is, as people say on here, MOOT.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that despite your claim to the contrary, the average is decreasing, not increasing.

The average is a statistic, not a rule, and for an average to be average you can expect some to be higher and some to be lower than the average.

You don't say....

You yourself noted the raids where they get these bodies, and then you say they dont have access to a pool of bodies. RJ did say Moridins body was "on hand" for some "other reason", but that it was pure chance that that particular body was available when Moridin was to be introduced.

No. If we look at what RJ actually said, not what you would like him to have said, we see that it does not say Moridin's body was kept around for some other reason. It says that the only chance of immediate resurrection is as a result of having a body around for some other reason. What reason do we have for immediate resurrection in this case? That would be that we didn't see him for months after his death until he came back, four books later...now, the observant among you will have noted that this doesn't quite make sense. This is because we have no reason to believe Moridin was immediately resurrected. What he said was that Moridin got a decent body by chance. So, you are wrong on this point. Unequivocally so.

It was a factor, but not the deciding factor, otherwise Moridin wouldnt be in that body.

He was in that body because it was the first halfway decent channeling body they turned up. That's pretty much it.

And you also say that 1% of the population can channel using that as another counterarguement, yet as already said the Shadow use Trolloc raids for gettings bodies and it stands to reason that the Shadow tests those bodies for the ability to channel before sending them to Thakandar. I think in the time the Shadow has been sending these raids out they had to have found some bodies with great channeling potential. Once they found a body with that much potential, whack it in a stasis box (which the Shadow do have) and then its waiting to be used.

Stands to reason eh? That might be the problem. I've always found it's much better to sit down to reason. Since what you are suggesting is that the Shadow stockpiles bodies, and what RJ said is that they don't. You. RJ. You. RJ. Tough choice? Again, you didn't write the series, so, call me crazy, I'm going to go with the guy who did, his opinion seems to count for a bit more than yours. So, his was the first body they turned up, and he got lucky with it. It wasn't there or some other reason, it wasn't part of some stasis box stockpile of bodies, it was just one they turned up. Also, they can't test to see how strong men will be, as far as we have any reason to believe. In other words, your theory is utterly baseless. They don't stockpile, so it is just random chance that out of the 1% of the population who can channel, Ishy wound up in a pretty good body. If strength was determined by body, then those odds are pretty bloody remote.

 

So Ares, are you going to actually come up with a real arguement against the theory? Are you going to provide any sort of quote or real reasoning for the debate, or simply disagree even more because it wasn't you that came up with it?

Because I didn't come up with it? Pathetic, even by your standards. There are some theories that I didn't come up with that I still support, because they are good. They have that thing called evidence supporting them. You remember that, it's that thing you didn't include in this theory. My arguments have blown this ill-thought out crap out of the water. The reasoning is clear. The quotes are all present and accounted for. What claim have I made that I haven't backed up? None. We can consider this matter settled, this theory destroyed, and any continuation is just you wasting your time.

Granted RJ didnt say outright that the body affects channeler strength

So you admit you made that up!

then you shouldnt be posting in this thread, as it hinders the discussion and on several occasions it has led to bickering.

This theory is not worthwhile discussion. If you continue to try and argue it, you are hindering the discussion. It is disproved.

I am merely looking at multiple possibilities

I am merely proving that these are not possibilities, and that they are wrong. Not just may be, are.

 

Now, on with the discussion.

[Luckers]

Moridin and Osan'gars bodies are from men of less-than-middle age, meaning they are just as likely to be very strong as, say Taim, who is almost as strong as Rand, or Narishma, who was born with the spark. Despite the idea of Aes Sedai killing the ability to channel out of men, Rand already has plenty of very strong Ashaman who could easily have been the same age as the Gars were in their current bodies' original life. Their bodies could be just as strong in channeling as the bodies of Aginors and Ishamaels going off Taim being potentially as strong as Rand himself. Aran'gars strength cannot be commented on because for one thing we rarely get her PoVs and for another there is no way at all to ever judge a mans strength unless he is channeling, and even then he could be holding back. Aran'gar could very well be weaker than Balthamel was, we have no evidence for or against.

 

Ok, you seem to have missed that in Winter's Heart Demandres considers that Cyndane may be Lanfear but dismisses it because she is weaker. This shows that the other three remained at the exact same strength.

 

Aside from which, what do the men's ages have to do with their strength?

 

The same reason women-women Healing makes them weaker. Because he didnt use Saidin. We have as much evidence for the Dark One being able to do it as against, if we look at Ishamael Healing Lews Therins insanity. Different, granted, but both a form of Healing. Theres no reason to think it cant be done with the True Power.

 

Actually there is, in that we've never seen it. Specifically too RJ stated that the weakening resulted from gender difference, thus we have no reason to suspect the True Power would cause the same.

 

You've also ignored the detailed points about why the Dark One wouldn't bother since he could have a lackey do it.

 

Not sure i can agree with Lanfear being healed by a woman. Suian suffered a drastic drop in strength. Lander/Cyndane had a drop in strength, but not that drastic. She was still above Graendal. Just not as strong as she was.

 

I'm assuming therefore that you did not read my post. There were about four paragraphs on this alone.

 

Body effects strength.

Soul determines the existence of the ability to channel

 

No idea. We don't have enough information. The fact that Elayne and Talene come from families of channelers and are both strong suggests its possible, but yeah, its unknown. We do know that whatever the body's influence on channeling is, it does not affect strength in transmigration.

 

There is no evidence to show that Aran'gar has the same strength she had in a male body. We have had very little from her PoV-wise, and even in those PoVs the situations didnt cause her to think of her channeling ability like Cyndane did at the Cleansing. Cyndane noted her reduction in power only because Alivia seemed stronger than her even before she was weakened, which Cyndane thought was impossible.

 

Regarding Moridin and Osan'gar. You say it would be hard to find that many people born with the right power levels. Theres only two of them! And two is an easy number to find in a time when the average channeler strength seems to be on the up again. There are several male Third Ager channelers of "incredible" strength that have showed up since Rand announced his amnesty as I have already said. Is it really so hard to believe the Shadow found just two that matched in strength? They only found two, both male; the female body they found-Cyndanes-could have been one with a lesser channeler ability hence the reduction in strength. Im guna requote abit of the passage I posted from RJ earlier.

 

Well, yes we do know Aran'gar is the same strength as Balthemel. As for the rest--finding two channelers of precisely the same strength would be hard. Do you really think that by happenstance the Dark One found two men who were exactly the same strength as their original bodies. That's rediculous--do you realise how many they would have to test? The Black Tower has been openly recruiting and found a thousand men and only Sandomere comes near Forsaken strength. Your saying the Dark One bothered to scour the human race--completely secretly, in a time when they forbade the Shadowspawn from raiding the Borderlands--to find two people who EXACTLY match Ishamael and Aginor in strength?

 

And to continue, how precisely did the Shadow find a woman who matched Balthemel in saidin?