White Tower/General Aes Sedai stupidity

[DhaiMon]

Yes, Windfinders sell their gift while Aes Sedai use it for the betterment of the societies they are involved with...

 

...unless they're making cuendillar to sell, for example...but those ARE rebel Aes Sedai.  Rebels!!!!

 

Cash and Forsaken ruin the best ideas... ;D

[Gentled Ben]

What evidence do we have that the Sea Folk handle male channelers any better than Aes Sedai, do?

 

Some might argue that Aes Sedai do not care enough, but the argument you presented was that they are nosier than Windfinders, implying something entirely different. You cannot have it both ways.

[DhaiMon]

What evidence do we have that the Sea Folk handle male channelers any better than Aes Sedai, do?

 

Some might argue that Aes Sedai do not care enough, but the argument you presented was that they are nosier than Windfinders, implying something entirely different. You cannot have it both ways.

Mh....let's see:

Windfinders seem to have a firm grip and a rather stable relationship to non-Channelers, despite their being Channelers. They do not have any such thing as the three oaths. We do not know of any cells of Darkfriends among them as complex as the Black Ajah. They do not claim that for them to be trusted, they need to follow some set of oaths.

 

What evidence do we have? Far as I can remember, they seemed to just throw male channelers into the sea once they started to show signs of madness.

Gentle? Nope. But it can be remedied, since Windfinders have been there to see the Cleansing happen.

Like it or not, but I think the Atha'an Miere will adapt to the new situations way faster, or, if not that, way easier than Aes Sedai will. Latter will need some rather harsh shock in order for them to rethink their ways. I don't see any such thing concerning the Windfinders happening(Amayar do not really count, IMHO, as their ritual suicide as a people came and went by without the Sea Folk being able to intervene; it's not their fault, so I don't think it will shake their culture as much as the Last Battle will). Likely since they're, at the end of the day, merchants, and merchants know how to adapt.  ;D

 

Anyway, hardly has anything to do with the topic anymore. I just don't buy that Aes Sedai are the sweet, selfless charity-organisation of Randland. :P

[Gentled Ben]

I don't see what your first paragraph has to do with anything, and as far as throwing male channelers into the sea, how is that more effective?

 

As far as adaptation goes, I haven't seen any signs of open-mindedness or changing viewpoints in the Windfinders, but I have seen it in some of the Aes Sedai, like Pevarra and Romanda. I believe that the Aes Sedai will prove more intellectually flexible than you are giving them credit for, but we'll have to RAFO, I suppose.

[MikeRiley]

Their heads have to be forced to look in the right direction but once they see it themselves all is well. That's the way I see it. I think once this bit with the Seanchan comes about we'll see the Aes Sedai shaping up. Right now it's a bunch of people doing their own thing but they'll end up working together in the end.

 

The Wise Ones seem the easiest way to make the Aes Sedai learn respect, I think Egwene means to send novices or accepted to them as part of their training once there's peace. Get their minds back down to earth and their chins lowered.

[magnutz]

I read some more in my copy of Crossroads of Twilight last night and happened upon a sentence that explains it all. RJ stated that the Aes Sedai community/group/institution is as flawed as any other such groups etc when it comes to stupidity and so on. A way to smooth it over perhaps. ;)

 

Anyway, interesting points are made in the thread. Keep it up!

[Mr Ares]

Besides, how come that the Atha'an Miere and practically everyone else can handle male channelers so marvelously well? Answer me that.

Do they really deal with them any better than anyone else? They murder them. At least the Aes Sedai try to save lives. Plus, given that the Sea Folk spend most of their time aboard ships, and ships are a more restrictive environment with fewer places to hide than a city, for example, it is hardly surprising if it is easier to find channeling men.

[AcuWill]

Besides, how come that the Atha'an Miere and practically everyone else can handle male channelers so marvelously well? Answer me that.

Do they really deal with them any better than anyone else? They murder them. At least the Aes Sedai try to save lives. Plus, given that the Sea Folk spend most of their time aboard ships, and ships are a more restrictive environment with fewer places to hide than a city, for example, it is hardly surprising if it is easier to find channeling men.

It is clearly stated time and again the the books from many POV that gentling/stilling/burning out is a fate far worse than death.  The Aes Sedai know this very well.  So in fact, the Sea Folk are far more gentle and ethical when it comes to their treatment of male channelers, while the Aes Sedai knowinlgy lead male channelers to the worse fate known to their organization.  Even darkfriends get the gallows.

 

Regarding the rest of the converstaion, another key point as to why Aes Sedai and the White Tower have so much animosity towards them and they are fun so foolishly is that everything about their heirarchy is based on strength, within the White Tower and out.  This is retarded, as inborn strength does not qualify one to be anything of value with regard to human to human interaction.  Further, this strength in the OP is used to make Aes Sedai greater than all non-channelers in Randland, even kings and queens.  They use this inborn position as the sole placement factor in their society.  Imagine if we were talking about height for example, a society which bases power on the ability (or lack there of) to be tall....  Even rulers by firth right need to show merit in their endevours.

 

The Sea Folk and the Wise Ones on the other hand are not instantaneously the highest in their society because of inborn gifts.  If they attain it, iti s because of merit, but along the way, non-channelers are their superiors with social standing: the Sailmistress on a ship and other non-channeling Wise Ones (even even clan chiefs to a certain extent.)

 

Edit:  Aes Sedai also use the ignorance, fear and segregation of non-channelers as their primary tool of control.  Of course that will breed hate and contempt in their society.  The Sea Folk and Wise Ones work together within their society providing continual benefit to all those around them.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It is clearly stated time and again the the books from many POV that gentling/stilling/burning out is a fate far worse than death.  The Aes Sedai know this very well.

Setalle Anan blows that right out of the water.

 

The fact that Aes Sedai "know" very little about gentling/stilling/burning out, or rather the consequences of the process, is also a recurring theme in the books.

 

Once you're out the channeling club, you're out, they don't care.

 

Given their assumptions, their actions have little to do with being gentle.

[Elgee]

It is clearly stated time and again the the books from many POV that gentling/stilling/burning out is a fate far worse than death.  The Aes Sedai know this very well.  So in fact, the Sea Folk are far more gentle and ethical when it comes to their treatment of male channelers, while the Aes Sedai knowinlgy lead male channelers to the worse fate known to their organization.  Even darkfriends get the gallows.

 

 

Gentling of men is a separate matter altogether from women burning out or being stilled.

 

Stilling is done for a grievous crime. The punishment for such crimes should be severe. In most societies today, imprisonment is considered a better alternative to hanging. Many arguments have been held over which is actually the more humane treatment.

 

Burning out is an accident - it more than likely happens amongst all groups of channelers, apart from the Seanchan. (On a side note: it would be interesting to hear how Sea Folk handle that. We've seen the Wise Ones doing their best to keep the AS who were burned out, alive.)

 

Now, getting to the gentling of men who can channel. There are 2 main consequences for men who can channel:

a) They go mad and become a danger to themselves, those around them, and possibly the world.

b) They suffer the most revolting and horrifying physical effects - they start rotting while alive.

The Aes Sedai method of gentling them, prevents those two things, while still leaving the possibility that these men might lead a reasonably content life.

 

If one takes your argument that it would be better to just kill them, and apply it to our world (just to make it less of an abstract and theoretical situation):

Would you also think it's more humane to just kill a person with breast cancer, rather than perform a mastectomy? Or one with ovarian cancer who needs a hysterectomy? For most women, losing their breasts or their ability to have children are a HUGE issue. It causes severe and debilitating depression, a lack of will to live, a lack of self-worth (anything sounding familiar here?), not to mention the actual physical problems, like premature aging, etc. I just grabbed 2 examples familiar to me, since I'm a woman, but I'm sure there are ones more applicable to men.

[Luckers]

A few thoughts...

 

Since my comment started this i feel the need to define that it was not in effect that i had a problem with the Windfinders--who cares if they sell their abilities--indeed, at least they are getting out there. The healing we've seen Yellows do has been incidental at best, and where are the Greens with helping the borderlanders? Browns helping the betterment of human knowledge? Rand's slapdash accadamies have achieved more than the browns have in three thousand years.

 

My problem is with their attitude. Aes Sedai may be arrogant at times, but they genuinely seek to do well by the world. The Windfinders are nothing but selfish children--I mean who, when approached by someone seeking to stop a drought that would end human existence sits down to ensure they get the best bargain. Same goes for the Coramoor. Its disgusting.

 

Aes Sedai may be misguided, but they mean well. Sea Folk want nothing but their own gratification.

 

Some would argue that they do not care enough...Besides, how come that the Atha'an Miere and practically everyone else can handle male channelers so marvelously well? Answer me that.

 

We know that the Athan'miere kill male channlers when they find them, not that they are successful in doing so. We have no information about how much damage those male channelers cause before they are killed.

 

 

[DhaiMon]

If one takes your argument that it would be better to just kill them, and apply it to our world (just to make it less of an abstract and theoretical situation):

Would you also think it's more humane to just kill a person with breast cancer, rather than perform a mastectomy? Or one with ovarian cancer who needs a hysterectomy? For most women, losing their breasts or their ability to have children are a HUGE issue. It causes severe and debilitating depression, a lack of will to live, a lack of self-worth (anything sounding familiar here?), not to mention the actual physical problems, like premature aging, etc. I just grabbed 2 examples familiar to me, since I'm a woman, but I'm sure there are ones more applicable to men.

In our world, it depends on whether the patient truly wants it, or not. Whether motivation for life has truly been blown out, or not.

 

Society should not make that decision. The individual should do that. And have the free means to do so.

Doesn't mean that it should be, generally, discouraged by education. It should not be treated as something akin to a major, prime sin, however.

 

My take as far as our world is concerned...

 

Now, what of channelers in Randland?

Situation is entirely different. Channelers are, compared to those not born with the ability, potentially omnipotent individuals. Whatever those individuals' motivations, they can literally play around with non-channelers as much as they want.

Therefore, it is more than understandable that, in general, Channelers found organisations for the sake of the rest of their societies, so that they are not automatically the despotic rulers of everyone else because they were born with it.

Doesn't mean that such "despotic rule" doesn't work, though...see Shara and Seanchan. It works almost perfectly well- if you ignore "truth" and "freedom" for one minute, highly subjective matters.

 

It can be compared to real world-phenomenons, but such comparisons just ignore the major differences between a "sickness" and a "talent" inborn.

 

Aes Sedai may be misguided, but they mean well. Sea Folk want nothing but their own gratification.

Do they?

Might be that they are just not willing to sacrifice hundreds of fighting men for a single daughter-heir...see the "glorious" rescue of Elayne. It was idiotic.  ::)

 

Yet somehow...sick fun to read, admittedly.

[AcuWill]

The real life examples are accurate for two resons, first they are not fates absolutely worse than death (as is evidenced by the discussion following Aviendha holding open the collapsing waygate and leading to becoming first sisters with Elayne iirc) and second, because the book examples are decisions forced on another.

 

With regard to the Sea Folk being greedy, they are not being greedy.  They are helping their own society to the fullest.  How is that greedy? They do not interact with Randland except on the barest terms.

[Mr Ares]

With regard to the Sea Folk being greedy, they are not being greedy. They are helping their own society to the fullest. How is that greedy?

Trying to get everything you can out of a bargain being made for their assistance in using a device that will fix the weather and stop them being wiped out isn't greedy? Simply saving the lives of their people isn't enough, they need more, and that isn't greedy?

 

It is clearly stated time and again the the books from many POV that gentling/stilling/burning out is a fate far worse than death.

I wonder if Setalle Anan agrees with that? Or Siuan?

So in fact, the Sea Folk are far more gentle and ethical when it comes to their treatment of male channelers, while the Aes Sedai knowinlgy lead male channelers to the worse fate known to their organization.

No. They remove a threat. They do so in the way that is least harmful. If those who have been Gentled later commit suicide, that is their choice. If they decide life is worth living and go on to live rich and fulfilling lives, so much the better. The only option the Sea Folk men have is death.

 

Regarding the rest of the converstaion, another key point as to why Aes Sedai and the White Tower have so much animosity towards them and they are fun so foolishly is that everything about their heirarchy is based on strength. Further, this strength in the OP is used to make Aes Sedai greater than all non-channelers in Randland, even kings and queens. They use this inborn position as the sole placement factor in their society.

Hence why it is a fate worse than death to AS. It may be bad in its own right, but to an AS it is worse because they are defined by their ability to channel, and strength in the Power. It is also why they get rid of those who are burnt out. They don't like the reminder that it could happen to them.

[AcuWill]

With regard to the Sea Folk being greedy, they are not being greedy. They are helping their own society to the fullest. How is that greedy?

Trying to get everything you can out of a bargain being made for their assistance in using a device that will fix the weather and stop them being wiped out isn't greedy? Simply saving the lives of their people isn't enough, they need more, and that isn't greedy?

 

It is clearly stated time and again the the books from many POV that gentling/stilling/burning out is a fate far worse than death.

I wonder if Setalle Anan agrees with that? Or Siuan?

So in fact, the Sea Folk are far more gentle and ethical when it comes to their treatment of male channelers, while the Aes Sedai knowinlgy lead male channelers to the worse fate known to their organization.

No. They remove a threat. They do so in the way that is least harmful. If those who have been Gentled later commit suicide, that is their choice. If they decide life is worth living and go on to live rich and fulfilling lives, so much the better. The only option the Sea Folk men have is death.

 

Regarding the rest of the converstaion, another key point as to why Aes Sedai and the White Tower have so much animosity towards them and they are fun so foolishly is that everything about their heirarchy is based on strength. Further, this strength in the OP is used to make Aes Sedai greater than all non-channelers in Randland, even kings and queens. They use this inborn position as the sole placement factor in their society.

Hence why it is a fate worse than death to AS. It may be bad in its own right, but to an AS it is worse because they are defined by their ability to channel, and strength in the Power. It is also why they get rid of those who are burnt out. They don't like the reminder that it could happen to them.

 

You ahve taken my points out of context and argued them.  This is a typical tactic of laywers who don't have the law on their side.

 

The discussion regarding the Sea folk athem not being greedy was about channelers respect to THEIR OWN scociety.

 

With regard to stilling, that is a theme that RJ goes on and on about throughout the books, very often time in first POV of channelers. 

 

And yes, I do believe that letting someone live in suffering until they kill themselves is far more cruel than if they are simply put out of their msiery in the first place.

 

And now further, the context of my entire discussion is not nit picking points separate from the whole, but rather that Aes Sedai function the most poorly in their society as compared to other societies with free channelers:  the Sea Fol and Wise Ones.  Despite your out of context arguements, my point is still valid.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

With regard to stilling, that is a theme that RJ goes on and on about throughout the books, very often time in first POV of channelers. 

Uhhh.... he goes on about both sides of the stilling/burn out issue. He repeatedly talks about how it's a fate worse than death.

 

Then, when Suian, Leane, and Setalle Anan are introduced as former channelers, we acutally learn that no Aes Sedai have studied them in years ... Which is why the two Blues are in such demand while in Salidar...

 

Apologies, but the second part is quite, quite clear.

And yes, I do believe that letting someone live in suffering until they kill themselves is far more cruel than if they are simply put out of their msiery in the first place.

And again, as both Mr. Ares and myself have argued, Suian, Leane, and Setalle Anan blow that theory clean out of the water, because, clearly, they're not miserable.

[Alghar Khan]

Uhhh.... he goes on about both sides of the stilling/burn out issue. He repeatedly talks about how it's a fate worse than death.

Yes, definately. At least for those that can't replace the channeling with something else. Those would be in majority of all cases.

 

 

And yes, I do believe that letting someone live in suffering until they kill themselves is far more cruel than if they are simply put out of their msiery in the first place.

And again, as both Mr. Ares and myself have argued, Suian, Leane, and Setalle Anan blow that theory clean out of the water, because, clearly, they're not miserable.

Those three are exceptions to the rule. I don't know if it's cruel or not, but I believe that it's for the best to let them decide what to do with their lifes. By the way, do we know for sure whether the Athan'miere know how to gentle men?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Those three are exceptions to the rule.

And how do they know those 3 are exceptions to the rule, given that no Aes Sedai has studied stilled women? And given that the majority of stilled women leave the Tower and go into hiding...

 

In other words, they have no way of knowing what happens to these women.

[MikeRiley]

I'd rather be gentled than drowned. That's just me, though.

[Luckers]

Aes Sedai may be misguided, but they mean well. Sea Folk want nothing but their own gratification.

Do they?

Might be that they are just not willing to sacrifice hundreds of fighting men for a single daughter-heir...see the "glorious" rescue of Elayne. It was idiotic. 

 

Yet somehow...sick fun to read, admittedly.

 

In what way is that relevant? What does the absurdity of one culture have to do with the absurdity of another? Yes, the concept of monarchy, aristocracy and any form of blood descended social importance is stupid--but how do you answer the question of 'do the sea folk want nothing but their own gratification' with 'might be that they are just not willing to sacrifice hundreds of fighting men for a single daughter-heir'?

 

'Do Aes Sedai kill puppies'?

 

'Might be they don't want to ride merry-go-rounds'.

 

Non-sequitor of the year.

 

With regard to the Sea Folk being greedy, they are not being greedy.  They are helping their own society to the fullest.  How is that greedy? They do not interact with Randland except on the barest terms.

 

We are not talking of them not caring about a people they knew nothing about, we are talking about them placing strictures on issues that saved their own people. Had the bowl of the winds not been employed the Sea Folk would have perrished too--we already know they had lost several ships to the storms being caused by the strange weather, and they need water like anyone else. Same, but worse, with the Coramoor.

 

I understand looking out for your own people. The Aiel Wise Ones are clear about doing that, and I agree with them. But the Sea Folk are not looking out for their own, they are looking for the financial gain they can get in doing it. They were incredibly unhappy with the Bargain because they felt they hadn't got enough out of it, even with unprecedented trading rights and all the rest. If I'd been Rand i would have said to Harine "I'm gonna save the world, either help me or get the hell out of my way".

 

It's not even as if Rand's gained anything from them. Perhaps if the Bargain included the militarization of the Windfinders, but as it is the Sea Folk are offering nothing of military value. Add to that that Harine assaulted Rand's representatives....

 

They are just plain disgusting.

 

You ahve taken my points out of context and argued them.  This is a typical tactic of laywers who don't have the law on their side.

 

That wasn't out on context--he used them within the exact same paradigms as you, he just cast a different light on them. Aside from that being a tactic of lawyers--in general (it's an advesarial system you know, that's what they're supposed to do) its also a fairly standard argumentative style.

 

The discussion regarding the Sea folk athem not being greedy was about channelers respect to THEIR OWN scociety.

 

Yes, and he responded in respect to their own society.

 

With regard to stilling, that is a theme that RJ goes on and on about throughout the books, very often time in first POV of channelers. 

 

Yes, and he referenced the theme RJ had explored in reference to stilling through the POV's of characters who had survived stilling. Happily, even.

 

And yes, I do believe that letting someone live in suffering until they kill themselves is far more cruel than if they are simply put out of their msiery in the first place.

 

Well, there's alot of cronically depressed people out there. My brother is one of them. Forgive me if I won't let you near him.

 

And now further, the context of my entire discussion is not nit picking points separate from the whole, but rather that Aes Sedai function the most poorly in their society as compared to other societies with free channelers:  the Sea Fol and Wise Ones.  Despite your out of context arguements, my point is still valid.

 

I agree, your point is, but I'd point out that you were responding to my point which was about their natures, not their functions. It was to that that Ares was replying.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

You ahve taken my points out of context and argued them.

When?

 

With regard to stilling, that is a theme that RJ goes on and on about throughout the books, very often time in first POV of channelers.

Examples? Which non-AS regard it as a fate worse than death? Which AS with a particular knowledge of it believe that? What about Setalle Anan, et al?

 

And yes, I do believe that letting someone live in suffering until they kill themselves is far more cruel than if they are simply put out of their msiery in the first place.

How about giving them the chance to live, but not necessarily suffer? It is not a simple choice between death and misery. It is also possible to get better from depression. I don't personally know anyone who has got better from death.

 

Yes, definately. At least for those that can't replace the channeling with something else. Those would be in majority of all cases.

What do you base that on?

 

Those three are exceptions to the rule.

Are they? We have precious few examples. AS, as a rule, get rid of them. They do not like to be reminded of what could happen to them. So they send them away and forget about them. Which means they don't have much to support that. We do not, and cannot, know what the majority of stilled/gentled/burnt out people are like. But, as yet, we have seen no suicides over the course of the series as a result of severing. But we have seen Logain, Siuan, Leane, Setalle Anan, Ronaille, Irgain, Sashalle all cling on to life. That it is a traumatic experience, I don't disagree with. That all, or even most, are doomed to lives of misery and soon resort to suicide, is not something I agree with. We do not know how common it is to find something to fill the gap.

[Nightstrike]

I was thinking about what usually happened to men that were gentled. I came to think about Cadsuane. So I searched the WoT Encyclopaedia (  http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/  ).

 

ACoS,Ch18 - Even though she is Green Ajah she has faced more men who can channel than any four Reds.

ACoS,Ch19 - Cadsuane helped capture both Logain and Taim. Logain nearly in her backyard (Ghealdan) was what brought her out of retirement.

ACoS,Ch19 - It has been over 270 years since she took on a task she could not accomplish.

ACoS,Ch33 - Rand has nightmares about Cadsuane telling him about hearing voices.

ACoS,Ch33 - Rand tells Min he is afraid Cadsuane is right about him being mad. Min asks who Cadsuane is.

ACoS,Ch36 - Cadsuane likes Amys and wants to meet Sorilea.

ACoS,Ch41 - Min has a viewing that Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Asha'man something they need to know.

ACoS,Glossary - Men she brings to the White Tower to tend to live markedly longer after being gentled than those brought by other sisters.

 

Owyn was gentled, and he died young. Logain was falling apart (probably depression or something else of sinister psychological nature). We don't know that much about those three that Rand burned out. They might have become married to some aiel men, if the Wise Ones had got their way.  :D

 

So, we don't have exact numbers. But I'd guess that a quite big fraction dies, at least within a few years. I don't know what is worst - being gentled/stilled or being burnt out. My bet is that being gentled/stilled is much worse. Still feeling the Source...

 

Anyway, killing people is BAD, BAD, BAD business. Should be avoided. Aes Sedai old ways of gentling are much more humane than the Sea Folk way of killing them. I'm assuming they knew how, but can't remember if they did or not (if we've even been told about that?).

[Luckers]

Mmm, i agree most seem to die--though it is correct that we don't know for sure... As for Logain and Owyn... neither are particularily good examples. Logain was kept in a cage, good enough, and Owyn lost everything he knew. Their lives predisposed the worst to their depression. Thats the Aes Sedai's fault more than anything, their attitude toward male channelers is dispicable.

 

But thats more or less what your quote shows--if an effort is made to help these people, they live longer. And even if it is not forever--its still something.

 

Even thats not proof--the social guilt these men must feel, even with the greatest help provided, must push them towards hating themselves thus adding to the depression. Same goes with the disdain given to Aes Sedai who get burned out, as if they are suddenly not the same person.

 

If the overall attitude was different i imagine the survival rate would be much greater.

[ElVato]

I don't think it is quite stupidity that the tower breeds. But I do believe that their structure  ingrains that belief that they are better human being than others are just because they can weild the One Power. Aes Sedai always defer to the one who is stronger in the power but if you look at the wise ones they defer to the elders regardless of their strength in the power. The way N E and E treat Mat and Thom is very arrogant. Then later the aes sedai practically begs Mat to get her out of the city before the Seanchan can collar her. She goes so far as to say that the will do anything. Then once they are a few miles away she goes back to being snobby and rude to Mat. That doesn't mean that all of them are that way but quite a few are. I don't know about the the males who channel because we have seen so few of them as main characters. Rand and Taim seem to tend towards arrogance but Logain seems to be down to earth. I defintely think some of the aes sedai should spend time in the care of the wise ones. I do think it is strange that they train you to be all powerful and expect great responsibility but to punish you get sent for spankings?!?

[MikeRiley]

With the example of Mat and the Ebou Dar Aes Sedai, Teslyn and Edesina seem sincere in their gratitude. They don't want him getting into Aes Sedai affairs which you can understand.. Teslyn steps up and stops Joline being mean to Mat though. There was a big argument that had everybody but her and Joline out of the wagon staring in astonishment. We also see them say they'll help Mat next time Joline acts up.