WoT re-read. EotW. Part 1/5. (Chapters 1-10)

[nstinson2004]

Alright guys, I decided to go ahead and get something started. So, if don't have a copy of the book, try to get one, or just try to contribute from memory where you can, or check out the chapter overviews from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

Please feel free to come and add to a section whenever you feel that you want to, it can be late, but please don't try to add to the discussion of chapters we haven't made it to in discussing yet, unless it is to point out something in a chapter to come that is relevant to what we are reading at the time.

 

I am thinking of a tentative schedule for the first 10 chapters as follows...

 

Prologue (Dragonmount & Chapter 1 (An Empty Road) - start now, starting new section, Thursday 22, since the Prologue is 7 pages and Chapter 1 is 18 pages. For the rest, I suggest a week for two or 3. I am open to suggestions

 

 

so...

 

Discussion for The Prologue and Chapter 1 starts on July 16, 2006

 

Discussion for Chapters 2 starts on July 23, 2006

 

Discussion for Chapters 3 starts on July 30, 2006

 

I think that should give sufficent time to read through 2 chapters at a time... The spirit of the "re-read" isn't just for the sake of re-reading, it is to delve deep insight from each chapter and state your enjoyment of certain aspects, to speculate on certain aspects, etc. To just read for the heck of it would do Jordan's masterful work a disservice.

 

 

if you feel this is too fast or too slow, please respond here. But, other than that.. start reading and posting!

 

I may post some points from some others that have read through these chapters and commented on them also.

 

 

One more note, I realize that only 1-2 chapters a week is bad for those of us who would have to rent books from the library, I would suggest just reading as much as you can and then writing your thoughts onto a Word document for later pasting when we get to that section, and, as always, refresh your memory at Encyclopaedia WOT!

[nstinson2004]

PROLOGUE - DRAGONMOUNT

 

Dramatis Personae:

 

Lews Therin Talamon (aka "LTT", aka "Lord of the Morning", aka Dragon, aka Kinslayer)-

*Wearing clothes that had once been regal, but now are torn and dusty, and the symbol of the Power pinned to him that he keeps fingering.

*Described as a tall man (like Rand is)

*Just into middle years

*Once was handsome

*Original hair color was brown (not like Rand) but is now more white

*A face lined by strain and worry (I guess going mad will do it to ya)

*Dark eyes that had seen too much (perhaps his body has absorbed the fact that he had killed everyone that he had loved, but yet the madness in his mind hadn't accepted it yet, so his body was deteriorating, but it hadn't "sunk in" to his mind? Or perhaps his dark eyes are from all of the battling against the Dark One and the Forsaken?)

 

Ilyena Sunhair-

*All we really know is that she was a golden haired beauty

 

Ba'alzamon (aka Elan Morin Tedronai "Batrayer of Hope", aka Ishamael)-

*Not as tall as LTT.

*Clothed all in black, save for the "white lace around his neck" (p.x) and the "silverwork on the turned-down tops of his high boots"(p.x) his usual garb for almost every time he is encountered.

 

 

The setting-

A once regal palace, but now crumbling. The site of a recent disaster.

 

 

Starting the chapter, we are given a view of massive destruction, yet we are never told for sure what LTT actually did to wreak such destruction I do not believe. Perhaps it was just a random bubble of evil like happen in the later books frequently?

 

LTT enters the scene, and he shows his madness immediately.... yet he strangely is able to keep his balance as the Earth heaves around him AND to deftly maneuver around dead bodies... yet he seems unaware... sort of ties in with what I suggested above about his eyes.

 

Ba'alzamon appears, attired in usual garb,and "names the Dark One", which must never be done. An evil man, he wants LTT to remember what he has done before he dies. Ba'alzamon asks if "the taint already has you so far in its grip?"... I was under the impression that when the Dark One touched the male half of the force, that it instantly maddened the men, but not gradually... It also seems funny to me that LTT is called the "Lord of the Morning", which is a nickname of sorts for Satan in Christian literature=).....LTT apparently has some memories in his madness (or has a moment of clarity), because he recognizes the name Elan Morin Tedronai.

 

Some important things mentioned about LTT's past:

-He stood first among the servants. Not sure what this signifies.

-He wore the ring of Tamyrlin. Once again, I do not remember what this signifies.

-He summoned the 9 rods of cominion. Ditto.

-He humbles Ba'alzamon in the Hall of Servants and defeated him at the gates of Paaran Disen. Can anyone remember if these things are mentioned any other time or alluded to at all outside of this?

 

 

"Elan Morin" says "I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now", does that mean that he was originally a good guy... ora semi-healer? I do not recall much of his past. What exactly did he do to LTT anyways to heal him? Can anyone else recall what type of "healing" spell that is and if it has been used any other times in the books?

 

The thing about the war having lasted 10 years... is that AFTER the sealing of the DO and the taint? I always like Ba'alzamon's lines in the books, and when he talks about the war lasting since the beginning of time, good stuff.

 

LTT starts to say that he will destroy Ba'alz. beyond anything that his master could repair... does that mean that LTT know how to weave balefire? Again, Ba'alz. speaks of the counterstroke by the Great Lord of the Dark instantly maddening people, so why would he be surprised that LTT was so lots in madness?

 

Something I just realized that I never really thought of before... Since he travelled away from his castle/estate thing before splitting the World, do we have any idea where in the World that LTT's castle/estate was?

LTT "in his pridehe had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken.", What is he speaking of in this case?

I guess that he committed suicide by the One Power, it wasn't an accident.

 

If the Dragon must be reborn, why does Ba'alzamon and the other forsaken have to be reborn in the same way... or are they? I am assuming they aren't. I guess it also never struck me that when he broke the Earth, he not only formed Dragonmount, but also Tar Valon!

 

in the writings about the breakings of the World, it said that "And him they named Dragon.", yet that is also what Ba'az. called him when they met. I suppose that at EVERY age ends the same way, and he is always named Dragon, and thats how Ba'alz. knew what to call him?

 

 

And, the perfect end to the chapter...

 

 

"And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time."

[edman]

Hey there! I really like the idea of doing a reread. I won't pretend to be a WoT expert but it would be fun to discuss the books (not any fans where I live :cry: ).

 

"Elan Morin" says "I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now", does that mean that he was originally a good guy... ora semi-healer? I do not recall much of his past. What exactly did he do to LTT anyways to heal him? Can anyone else recall what type of "healing" spell that is and if it has been used any other times in the books?

 

I've always thought that Elan Morin was originally good because LTT calls him "Betrayer of Hope". This indicates to me that Elan Morin had turned his back on the Light. I'm not sure as to what type of healing it was but it appeared to get rid of LTT's madness/taint which would explain his great pain. Elan Morin had to draw the taint forcefully out of a lot, if not all, of LTT's soul/body. I don't think the effects would have lasted long but we can't know for sure because LTT commits suicide soon afterwards.

 

The thing about the war having lasted 10 years... is that AFTER the sealing of the DO and the taint?

 

Not sure about the years...

 

LTT starts to say that he will destroy Ba'alz. beyond anything that his master could repair... does that mean that LTT know how to weave balefire? Again, Ba'alz. speaks of the counterstroke by the Great Lord of the Dark instantly maddening people, so why would he be surprised that LTT was so lots in madness?

 

I don't know about balefire because that would mean that Ba'alzamon would be burnt out of the pattern possibly causing more harm than good. I think he was surpised so much by LTT's madness because he was thought to be the most powerful Servant(?). Ba'alzamon possibly persumed that the taint would take longer to affect LTT.

 

LTT "in his pridehe had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken.", What is he speaking of in this case?

 

I'm pretty sure he was talking about mending the Void they drilled into with the Power.

 

If the Dragon must be reborn, why does Ba'alzamon and the other forsaken have to be reborn in the same way... or are they? I am assuming they aren't.

 

The rest of the Forsaken were sealed along with the Dark One. Some how Ba'alzamon escapes this fate and I guess survives to the time of Rand. Or maybe he is the only Forsaken that is reborn?

 

Well that's all I got so far and once again I really like the idea of doing a reread. I hope other people can get into this!

[Guest Majsju]

Some important things mentioned about LTT's past:

-He stood first among the servants. Not sure what this signifies.

-He wore the ring of Tamyrlin. Once again, I do not remember what this signifies.

-He summoned the 9 rods of cominion. Ditto.

 

All these things refer to his position as leader of the Aes sedai. Aes Sedai mean servant in the Old Tongue. The Ring of Tamyrlin was a symbol of the position, and the 9 Rods of Dominion were people, kind of governors around the world. So obviously someone able to summon them is quite powerful.

 

 

"Elan Morin" says "I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now", does that mean that he was originally a good guy... ora semi-healer? I do not recall much of his past. What exactly did he do to LTT anyways to heal him? Can anyone else recall what type of "healing" spell that is and if it has been used any other times in the books?

 

Most likely refering to Ishy using TP instead of OP.

 

 

The thing about the war having lasted 10 years... is that AFTER the sealing of the DO and the taint? I always like Ba'alzamon's lines in the books, and when he talks about the war lasting since the beginning of time, good stuff.

 

No, it's the war from the actual fighting started til the strike at Shayol Ghul.

 

Something I just realized that I never really thought of before... Since he travelled away from his castle/estate thing before splitting the World, do we have any idea where in the World that LTT's castle/estate was?

 

No. Since Travelling allows you to cover great distances, someone as powerful as LTT most likely could Travel to any given spot on the planet in one step. And the Breaking had just started at this point, afterwards the land changed a lot.

 

I guess that he committed suicide by the One Power, it wasn't an accident.

 

Yup, he OD-ed the One Power.

[Minnea]

"Elan Morin" says "I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now", does that mean that he was originally a good guy... ora semi-healer? I do not recall much of his past.

 

I do not remember much of Ishamael's past either... but wasn't he a philosopher of sorts? Anyway, he can't always have been a Forsaken, not before the Bore was drilled anyway. Problably he was just another Aes Sedai like the rest of them - and like every other channeler not very good at everything... he just never was any skilled at Healing (not many are...).

 

LTT starts to say that he will destroy Ba'alz. beyond anything that his master could repair... does that mean that LTT know how to weave balefire? Again, Ba'alz. speaks of the counterstroke by the Great Lord of the Dark instantly maddening people, so why would he be surprised that LTT was so lots in madness?

 

Of course LTT knew how to weave Balefire - at least I always assumed so. Isn't balfire something that Rand isn't tauhgt, one day he just does it and know how... knowledge seeped down from LTT?

I think some of the male AS problably went instantly insane after the Sealing of the Bore, but most of them went mad at different rates, as it is with male cahnnelers in Rand's time. Some quickly, some slower...

 

LTT "in his pride he had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken.", What is he speaking of in this case?

 

I always assumed (well, not in my first reading, but...) that he speaks of the Bore. The Creator made the DOs prison, man broke it (drilled the Bore) and LTT thought he could mend it (seal it forever).

[nstinson2004]

I guess that would make sense, it never really struck me that MAN was the one who released the Dark One.

[nstinson2004]

Another question...

 

===================================

what does the shadow need to achieve victory? Here, Ishy arrives seemingly victorious and with the apparent purpose of finishing off LTT. However, Ishy never says he is actually going to kill LTT right then. He says, “I will not let you die . . . .†and “When you die . . . .†(p. xi.) The fact is that Ishy does not even try to kill LTT during the prologue despite ample opportunity.

 

Further, LTT kills himself at the end of the prologue and Ishy appears and says, “You cannot escape me so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us.†(p. xiv.) It sounds like LTT actually foiled Ishy’s plans by dying when he did. That suggests that Ishy needed to do something more than just kill LTT to achieve he Shadow’s goals. This is reinforced by the fact that Ishy had ample opportunity to simply kill LTT but made no effort to do so.

===================================

 

also,

 

===================================

"Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time." [p. xii] How does Ishamael know this? Has the DO told him so? The people of Randland know all about salvation and rebirth, but why would any person know that the forces of light and shadow have done this before? And why would a man of the shadow admit that, after thousands of such battles, they've never won?

===================================

 

and, as well, how exactly does LTT channel so much of the power through himself that he bursts? Was he using an angreal or sa'angreal (like the emblem he was fingering?). Or, was he merely just powerful enough to channel more than he could possibly handle?

[Guest Majsju]

===================================

what does the shadow need to achieve victory? Here, Ishy arrives seemingly victorious and with the apparent purpose of finishing off LTT. However, Ishy never says he is actually going to kill LTT right then. He says, “I will not let you die . . . .†and “When you die . . . .†(p. xi.) The fact is that Ishy does not even try to kill LTT during the prologue despite ample opportunity.

 

Further, LTT kills himself at the end of the prologue and Ishy appears and says, “You cannot escape me so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us.†(p. xiv.) It sounds like LTT actually foiled Ishy’s plans by dying when he did. That suggests that Ishy needed to do something more than just kill LTT to achieve he Shadow’s goals. This is reinforced by the fact that Ishy had ample opportunity to simply kill LTT but made no effort to do so.

===================================

 

It might be Ishy's personal feeligs regarding LTT on display here. LTT defeated and humiliated Ishy, and temporarily defeated the DO by sealing the bore. Good opportunity for Ishy to get some sweet revenge, by showing LTT just how much suffering his victory has caused.

 

As for other plans, perhaps Ishy was thinking about a way to keep LTT alive forever, that way he could not be reborn to fight the TG, and the DO would win on walk-over. Just put the looney in a stasis-box :D

 

===================================

"Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time." [p. xii] How does Ishamael know this? Has the DO told him so? The people of Randland know all about salvation and rebirth, but why would any person know that the forces of light and shadow have done this before? And why would a man of the shadow admit that, after thousands of such battles, they've never won?

===================================

 

Keep in mind that Ishy was the leading philosopher of the AOL, and once he joined the DO, apparently became the DO's most entrusted ally. The guy has knowledge, no doubt about that. But considering that he's also quite mad, his interpretation of that knowledge might not always be spot on, at least not anymore. And by telling LTT this, he's telling him that everything LTT has done is in vain, LTT won the battle, the war will go on anyway. LTT killed his family and destroyed the world for nothing. I think Ishy wants LTT to suffer, yes.

 

and, as well, how exactly does LTT channel so much of the power through himself that he bursts? Was he using an angreal or sa'angreal (like the emblem he was fingering?). Or, was he merely just powerful enough to channel more than he could possibly handle?

 

Every channeler can draw too much of the power. That's what causes burning out. Now, LTT might have carried an angreal or even sa'angreal on him, considering the huge effect it had. Creating a volcano is quite a big achievement. Or maybe he was powerful enough in himself to do it, he was after all the strongest channeler in the AOL.

[HighLordXanthus]

Some important things mentioned about LTT's past:

-He stood first among the servants. Not sure what this signifies.

-He wore the ring of Tamyrlin. Once again, I do not remember what this signifies.

-He summoned the 9 rods of cominion. Ditto.

-He humbles Ba'alzamon in the Hall of Servants and defeated him at the gates of Paaran Disen. Can anyone remember if these things are mentioned any other time or alluded to at all outside of this?

 

Maybe I am wrong, but I always assumed that the nine rods were ter'angreal, the two known oath rods among them. We also cannot deny the the word "Tamyrlin" is awefully similiar to Amyrlin Seat. Perhaps this is the leader of the male aes sedai? "First among servants"? Again the word "servant" in the old tongue is Aes Sedai, and the first of the servants would be the Amyrlin or perhaps the Tamyrlin ?? Possibly there is a male and female possition in the hall of the servants.

[loki redfern]

Every channeler can draw too much of the power. That's what causes burning out. Now, LTT might have carried an angreal or even sa'angreal on him, considering the huge effect it had. Creating a volcano is quite a big achievement. Or maybe he was powerful enough in himself to do it, he was after all the strongest channeler in the AOL.

 

drawing too much of the power like LTT did is always spectacularly devistating to the surrounding land, as you'll hear again in chapter 1 (trying not to give any thing away to anyone that hasnt read that far yet and dosent remember)

[Guest Majsju]

Maybe I am wrong' date=' but I always assumed that the nine rods were ter'angreal, the two known oath rods among them. We also cannot deny the the word "Tamyrlin" is awefully similiar to Amyrlin Seat. Perhaps this is the leader of the male aes sedai? "First among servants"? Again the word "servant" in the old tongue is Aes Sedai, and the first of the servants would be the Amyrlin or perhaps the Tamyrlin ?? Possibly there is a male and female possition in the hall of the servants.[/quote']

 

The nine rods were actual people, not ter'angreal. Confirmed by RJ.

Tamyrlin was the name of the person who discovered the ability to channel. It appears it was the name of the leader of the Aes Sedai, who were not divided in female/male during the AOL. Amyrlin is most lilely a title created in the 3rd Age, drawing from the remainimg memories of the AOL.

[loki redfern]

i does say in one he wrote with teresa patterson that

 

Some historians but not all, believe that the Oath Rod of the Aes Sedai may infact be one of the original Nine Rods of Dominion mentioned in the anicient texts.

 

did he say some thing diferent later, maybe after he's finished he will update the BWB, that would be good

[Guest Majsju]

The BWB is written in a way a late 3rd Age historian would write it, so don't take everything there as 100% true.

 

Question Part 1: I have a question about the nine rods of dominion. We have a couple of references to this, and Ishamael says that Lews Therin summoned the nine rods of dominion. And theories have been floating around, are the oath rods not the nine rods of dominion.

 

Jordan: They were not the oath rods.

 

Question Part 2: Well are they positions of power, were they people, or were they actual rods.

 

Jordan: They were actual people, and they were, but you might call them regional governors of the earth, regional governors of the planet. So if I say, summon them, then we’ve got a guy who has been given in effect ultimate power.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

[nstinson2004]

Thanks for the answer, Majsju

 

I will start on Chapter 1 sometime soon

[Featherless Hawkwing]

I'm sure that in either one of the glossaries, or RJ's own answer to a question, someone has said the Ring of Tamyrlin (Tamyrlin being, we assume, the leader of the Aes Sedai) is supposed by some Third Age historians to be a powerful sa'angreal, second in strength only to the Choedan Kal--confirming Lanfear's reference to two sa'angreal usable by men that were stronger than Callandor. So the Ring, at the time strongest of sa'angreal besides the Choedan Ksl (which were made much, much later and for a specific purpose: the resealing of the Bore) would be given into the care of the highest among Aes Sedai. So LTT was pretty much the most powerful person in the world? The Nine Rods of Dominion, the most powerful of sa'angreal, leader of all Aes Sedai... or maybe all that comes from being leader of the Aes Sedai?

 

Hmm... I wonder if Ilyena was hotter than Lanfear?

Probably not.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, as mentyioned above, some 3rd Age historians also believes that the rods of dominion are ter'angreal, some even that the oath rod is one of them. We know they were wrong, so why would they be right about the ring?

[Featherless Hawkwing]

Well, some might be right... besides, it's the only likely candidate for Lanfear's "two more powerful" comment, and... wait a second...

"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far - and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she added, grimacing at Callandor. There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that."

 

The evidence is still far from concrete, and has cracks enough to swallow itself up, but still, I can't help but think her words are of significance.

 

My attempts to find RJ's word on this have been fruitless. Does anyone else have any idea where this is, or am I just a delusional moron? Maybe it was a Question of the Week... to Tor!

 

Um, nope. Nuthin' there.

 

Crazy... toys in the attic

I am crazy

Truly gone fishing...

They must have taken

My marbles away

[Dionysus]

---------------------------

As for other plans, perhaps Ishy was thinking about a way to keep LTT alive forever, that way he could not be reborn to fight the TG, and the DO would win on walk-over.

---------------------------

 

Perhaps it could involve turning LTT/Rand/Dragon Reborn to the dark side, so he gains immortality and can't be reborn?

 

I'll probably join in on this discussion, maybe a little late. I started a reread a couple weeks ago, but I started on Fires of Heaven, maybe I'll go back and start on tEotW though. I tend to be too quick of a reader, and miss things, a discussion group would probably do wonders.

[nstinson2004]

dang, I just got a fairly time consuming job, so I havent gotten to chapter 1 yet.. so.. I am going to RE-DO the time schedule for only 1 chapter a week or so.. that way we can completely dissect and discuss each one.

 

Is that alright with all of you?

 

Also, it would help out my confidence if at least one other person were reading the chapters also :P

[nstinson2004]

Chapter 1

 

Dramatis Personae

 

Rand al'Thor:

A head taller than Tam, his father. Gray eyes, reddish hair, broad shoulders. His mother (unnamed) is dead. Armed with bow and arrow. His horse's name is Bela. Women often ambush him to fix Tam up with a new wife, but Rand is now old enough that they're starting to look at him as a potential husband, too. [p. 8] Stubborn, like all Two Rivers folk.

 

Tam al'Thor:

Strong, thick chest, broad face, sun-roughened cheeks, and mostly gray hair instead of black. Solid and sure of himself. Rand's father. Broad shoulders. A shepherd. His wife (unnamed) is dead. Makes apple brandy and apple cider. He speaks of the Flame and the Void, which have helped him win the archery competition at Bel Tine every year. [p. 5]

 

Matrim Cauthon:

Brown eyes that twinkle with mischief. Wiry body. "Never seemed to grow up." Avoids work whenever possible. Has a baby sister. [p. 12] Likes to pull pranks, so much that using him to corroborate a story would probably do more harm than good. [p. 14]

 

 

The Setting-

A rough, rock strewn road, called Quarry Road, surrounded by a thick, tangled forest called the Westwood.A wind sweeps off of the Mountains of Mist and beats upon the backs of two lone travelers.

 

 

I always have loved the way that the WoT books start out, the imagery is amazing.

Traveling, Rand al'Thor and his father are both wary, but why they do not know.

 

You hear a lot about the winter that is plaguing them through the imagery described early on as they walk the road. You also learn early portents about the proliferation of wolves in the vicinity that are also plaguing the land known as the Two Rivers.

 

Who is the "mother" than Rand remembers that Tam brought back from outside the Two Rivers with him and Rand? I do not recall right now anything other than she is not his real mother :P

It seems that Rand does not much get away from his farm to go to Emonds Field? Or is that just as of late? I guess Tam is protective.

 

Then there is imagery straight from Tolkien with the black cloaked rider following them far back on the road. Definitely made me think of ring wraiths the first time I read this :)

Also, if he saw something, why not just tell Tam earlier? Tam may have been able to do something perhaps about it. I guess he was just too frightened or stunned.

But, anyway, Tam did not see the rider, and the road was empty when Rand turned back to point him out. Rand also remembers that the wind did not touch the rider's cloak. [p. 4]

We later learn that Mat saw the rider, too, three days prior. [p. 12] Mat was scared and hasn't been able to stop thinking about him, yet has not told anyone about it.

We also learn later that the rider is a Fade, a Myrddraal. His cowl was pulled forward because he has no eyes, but his gaze inspires intense fear. The road is empty when Rand looks back because the Myrddraal can fade into the shadows. His cloak doesn't move because Myrddraal are not in the world the same as everything else. But, if they can do this, why do they not do it all the time, i.e. in battle? I guess that their ability does not work if they are not still?

 

We then learn about one of the more annoying characters in all the series (IMHO), Egwene al'Vere, the mayors daughter (Which I had forgotten untill this re-reading), who makes Rand increasingly "jittery", I assume because she is a very pretty girl and he's getting to that age :) Too bad nothing ever comes of it before she becomes a monster.

 

The Flame and the Void... an "odd thing Tam had thought him"... where exactly did Tam learn this in the first place, can anyone remember exactly? It has been far too long since I read anything about Tam's past and it escapes me at the moment. Is there anything significant about it?

 

Goodwives and goodmen are working hard at their spring cleaning, even though the winter has not relented yet. We learn Cenn Buie is the town thatcher.

 

Also, more troublemakers introduced... The Coplins and the Congars... more particularly, Wit Congar.

 

Another thing you quickly learn that comes into play a lot... I love the Two Rivers and the Two Rivers men... but come on guys, get a backbone! You can't let those Women and their Women's Council push you around all the time, and ESPECIALLY not Nynaeve(I won't even start on her, *sigh*)! Stand up for yourselves men if you have any pride! lol

But of course they don't as you see an example with Daise Congar coming out and showing her husband who wears the pants around the house... of course, with a wife like her, I can see why.

The town wisdom can "listen to the wind".

 

Dang, I wish people would help me hook up as much as they're trying to hook up Tam and Rand, I could use the help :-(

 

We learn a little more about the event which brings Tam and Rand to EF... Bel Tine... the events aren't really important in the overall scheme of the story.. so I won't take the time to break any of them down.. but it sounds like a fun time!

 

 

Mat tries to convince Rand to let a badger loose on the village Green, but Rand dutifully mentions that he is supposed to help Tam unload the cider from the cart.

 

When talking about the rider on the black horse, Mat jokes that maybe it was the Dark One or the Dragon. [p. 13] Rand replies, "You're just full of cheerful thoughts, aren't you?" Mat says his mother used to threaten that one of the Forsaken would come for him. So, apparently superstition os a large part of Two River life (do we see that reflected in other parts of theirs or other peoples lives in Randland?)

 

On second thought, Bel Tine is VERY important, because it is what brings a gleeman to town, who later becomes very integral to the story of the whole series!

Apparently a gleeman, and just an outsider in general, is big news in such a small hamlet, who do not get much news of the outside World and don't generally concern themselves with it.

 

Also, fireworks are talked about, which I see as another nod to Tolkien's writings.

 

We are introduced to the Winespring Inn, which is used constantly in the book by Rand as a measuring stick for other Inns and buildings they come to. It is owned by the Mayor and his wife, the al'Vere's. It is an integral place in the first book also, because of the various people who are introduced and stay here.

 

We learn a little about the Dark One and the Forsaken in the little saying said by Rand to Mat (Which is repeated often in the series.)

The Forsaken are apparently not seen as being real, more superstition.

"Sometimes I think Nynaeve is right about..." then he stops.. any idea what he was referring to?

 

And, ending it out, Rand is still afraid of Egwene (good thing, be very afraid Rand!), as they plan to try to avoid her and learn that there are... other... strangers in town.... a drak portent of what is to come..

 

All in all, there's not very much in this first chapter except for some basic introductions, aside perhaps from the Myrddraal.

 

 

Sorry for being kind of helter skelter with my comments and skipping around, i was sort of just going from memory and writing stuff from different parts of the chapter that caught my eye.

 

Please feel free to comment on what I said or add your own comments of the chapter in general

[/i]

[nstinson2004]

More random points and questions about The Prologue and Chapter 1

 

 

Here's something to debate.... Was Ishamael ever really bound with the Dark One and the other forsaken? If so, how does he appear bodily to Lews Therin?

 

Whith types of traveling do Lew Therin and Ishamael use? I seem to remember someone else using the "shimmering" traveling like Ishy did.

 

Ishy says the Great lord can bring Ilyena back to him? Is that true or a lie? Can the DO really capture souls and restore them?

 

Another thing I didn't mentions. The Current Age is the Third Age.

[Jinjurluv]

Sorry, I'm a little late joining in on the discussion for the prologue, busy weekend...

 

I don't remember which book it was in but it was stated somewhere that the Dark One REALLY, REALLY wanted LTT to join him and become the Nae'Blis. This would obviously really irritate Ishy, to the point he would want to destroy the competition. It would also skew things extremely as far as the Pattern was concerned if its hero turned to the DO! The DO eventually starts "courting" Rand also...

[Minnea]

I haven't gotten to reading the chapter yet... but I'll stick in a few comments anyway :D

 

Who is the "mother" than Rand remembers that Tam brought back from outside the Two Rivers with him and Rand? I do not recall right now anything other than she is not his real mother

 

I don't remember much more than her name: Kari al'Thor... she vas an "outlander", and Rand's coloring (which isn't the usual dark of the Two Rivers) is explained by her. So problably she had grey eyes and reddish hair too... She must have met and married Tam when he was out of the Two Rivers, but before the Aiel War when Tam found Rand.

 

 

The Flame and the Void... an "odd thing Tam had thought him"... where exactly did Tam learn this in the first place, can anyone remember exactly? It has been far too long since I read anything about Tam's past and it escapes me at the moment. Is there anything significant about it?

 

Later Lan says that he uses much the same thing to stay focused during sword-playing. So I guess it was something Tam learned along with the sword, somewhere he got good enough to get a sword with a Blademaster's mark. A comment from Nynaeve: "Tam ran away seeking adventure when he was a boy no older then you (Rand)". Wasn't Tam some sort of officer in Illian during the Aiel War at least?

 

 

Here's something to debate.... Was Ishamael ever really bound with the Dark One and the other forsaken? If so, how does he appear bodily to Lews Therin?

 

I stick to the most common explanation: that Ishy was sealed very close to the surface, so he could get out temporairly with some intervals when he was sealed away. Seems like he had a hand in the Trolloc Wars for example, and in making Arthur Hawkwing an enemy of Tar Valon.

 

 

Ishy says the Great lord can bring Ilyena back to him? Is that true or a lie? Can the DO really capture souls and restore them?

 

I think the Father of Lies is lying... I think that he may be able to catch souls and restore them into new bodies (we've examples for this), but I think that for him to do so the soul in question need already be his. And I'm not at all sure of if he can keep a soul alive without a body... it seems some "restored" Forsaken would have gotten better bodies if they had been able to wait for them... Now they just got what they could get.

[Guest Majsju]

Ishy was only partially sealed, it's believed he was able to enter the world every 40th year. The incidents we've seen him out in the world (Shadar Logoth, the trolloc war, Hawkwing etc) fits with that cycle, but we don't know if it was every 40th year that he actually was released.

 

The flame and the void is a technique used by blademasters, Lan and Galad knows it, and it seems reasonable that Tam learned it since he reached the level of blademaster.

 

LTT travels the same way Rand. Ishy's has been described a bit different, which might be a result of him using only TP.

 

That Rand doesn't get away much from the farm...Well, try yourself to run a farm being only two people to take care of all the chores. Doesn't leave much time for playing around. And when we meet rand, he's at an age where responsibilities definitly outweighs playtime.

 

Fireworks being a nod to Tolkien...Well, perhaps a little, but it's there for a reason, it plants Mat's fascination with them in our minds, which will be important later on.

[nstinson2004]

yeah, it does that, but in that instance I wasn't thinking grand scheme of things ideas, just for the beginning:)