Who is Mesaana?

[Guest Egwene]

It is the Question that made me seek out other WoT fans on the net. I have not had the chance as yet to follow a debate on this.

 

I am not even proposing a suspect as I have been suspecting everyone from Laras in the kitchen to Elaida herself.

 

Please, please.... this is the one question above all, that I really really would love to get closer to the answer before aMoL.

 

Any theories??

[Guest cwestervelt]

One of the female Foresaken. :idea:

 

Oh, I suppose you wanted something more than that.... Hmm...

 

The shadowy figure in the Tower that holds Alviarin's, and as a result of the kidnap fiasco, Elaida's reins.

 

Oh, wait, everybody knew that too...

 

Something else....

 

She wears gold (brown?) edged in black...

 

I'm out of ideas as that is about all I know of her...

 

She doesn't even need to be one of the AS in the Tower. For all I know, she could just be inverting the weave for a disguise and entering the Tower as just another petitioner each time she goes to see Alviarin.

[Paradoxic]

The problem with this debate is the lack of evidence that is not already compiled here: http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.2_mesaana.html (yay for the FAQ!)

 

I'm partial to the Danelle theory but recognize that it isn't air-tight.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Danelle seems to be the strongest candidate based on physical description and personal characteristics.

 

Since we first meet her in the Prologue to Fires of Heaven, IF she is Mesaana, then she becomes a candidate for Asmo's killer.

 

The problem with that is that Mesaana is part of Demandred's faction. If she'd killed him, Demandred would have known Asmo was dead when he reported to the DO the next day.

 

As cwestervelt says, there is no requirement that she actually be IN the Tower. She could be headquartered anywhere and simply gate in and out as needed. The best probability remains that she actually is resident in the Tower and arrived sometime after Lanfear ( as Else Grinwall ) departed.

 

Sadly, the timeframe of her arrival doesn't really help us pinpoint who she is, since we don't know which Aes Sedai arrived when.

[Guest Egwene]

Interesting you should mention Danelle at this point. I have just posted on the Asmo thread about who might have had reason to follow Bashere. And .... this morning starting a re-read of tFoH who is drawing attention to the Borderlanders??..... our Danelle!

[Guest cwestervelt]

It could be her, but I don't know. That is a lot to draw from a couple of casual comments. Especially when Alviarin is assuming Messana has to be masquerading as a Sister. There is a real tendency in the books for assumptions to be very much wrong.

 

The problem with Danelle is that she was already in the Tower prior to the split. This would mean that, close friends or not, too many people should know who she is. How often don't we see people reminiscing about when this or that Aes Sedai was a Novice or Accepted. Someone should clue in if there was suddenly an Aes Sedai there that no one remembers as Novice and Accepted. And she would stick out as a sore thumb if she went through Novice and Accepted training by the time Siaun was deposed. Someone who isn't Aes Sedai would make it much easier to escape notice.

 

Alviarin also notes the dress is bronze silk. While the wotmania.com theory uses the part about Aes Sedai often dressing in Ajah Colors, it doesn't really account for the tendency among Brown Sisters wear wool at least as much, if not more, than silk.

[Paradoxic]

If she is a sister, then she is pretending to be an existing sister (either one she killed or otherwise moved somewhere she'd not be recognized). If she's not a sister... then why was she wearing silk? She would need to be wearing whatever would fit her alter ego's station, so obviously she's not a servant of some sort. Even a personal maid would be rarely found in silk (and it doesn't seem AS keep personal servants beyond their warders). Sure, she could be something like Delana has, but that was viewed as passing odd to have a secretary dressing as she did (not just in the area of percentage of visible skin either).

 

AS do not always wear the colors of their Ajah, they are just partial to them. The color of her clothing is almost worthless because it cannot reduce our solution set. AS can have dresses of any color and any material. Even some of the brown have silks.

[Guest Majsju]

Looking at what RJ has said about it, we have seen Mesaana's identity in the White Tower, RJ has left several clues, enough that it is possible to figure it out before COT.

 

Add to that that Alvhiarin thinks that she almost recognizes Mesaana when the mask falls of in COT, and it's safe to assume that we are talking about an Aes Sedai here, not a servant or anything like that.

 

Alvhiarins almost recognizing her also works very well with one important factor when posing as an Aes Sedai: Mesaana would have to include agelessness in her mask. Compare that with when we saw Siuan and Leane, and say Gawyn's reaction whe he sees them.

[Tylins Toy]

While I was re-reading through the books this last time around, I found a clue to who Mesaana could be. It wasn't a clue outright though, and you couldn't say, "Yes, she must be Mesaana," but what I remember is that it was an accepted and the way the passage was worded, it pointed out particulars about that person that made me stop reading.

 

I will dig to find this passage, and all I remember is that it WAS an accepted, brown ajah, and that it was at the beginning of one of the latter books. (PoD or further)

 

I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the accepted, but I will find it and post it along with the passage.

 

Since that time, I have always thought of Mesaana as hiding within the lower ranks of the tower channelers. The Aes Sedai are so full of themselves that they would never suspect an Accepted or a Novice. Perfect place to be obscure in my opinion.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I will dig to find this passage' date=' and all I remember is that it WAS an accepted, brown ajah, and that it was at the beginning of one of the latter books. (PoD or further)[/quote']

 

You might want to clarify that statement. It sounds like you are saying an Accepted of the Brown Ajah, and that ain't gonna happen.

 

If she's not a sister... then why was she wearing silk? She would need to be wearing whatever would fit her alter ego's station' date=' so obviously she's not a servant of some sort.[/quote']

 

Alviarin could recognize lots of people who where silk and aren't Aes Sedai. There are constantly petitioners to the Tower and many have high stations. If it is a Sister, it would point me to a non-Brown which is one of the reasons why I said I have problems accepting the "Messana = Danelle Sedai" theory. Maybe I wasn't clear but what I meant was that the theory gave too much weight to the color of the dress.

[Alys Kinch]

don't forget that she could be disguised as just be a petitioner. but i think that it is likely danelle as she is hte only one to have been in on hte deposition of suiane that is constantly metioned at that time. as well on the day that alviarin sees mes's dress, there was a meeting with elaida that i think danelle was at with silks and shawl...

 

at least we can say it isn't tarna.

[Paradoxic]

Maybe I wasn't clear but what I meant was that the theory gave too much weight to the color of the dress.

 

This makes two threads where we agree on something... but... that can't be because we don't support the same Asmodean-Killer... verily, the end of the world is nigh. Cats and Dogs dancing together in the street, hordes of teenagers listening to (and appreciating) classical music, and people with different Asmodean-Killer choices agreeing on message boards.

[Tylins Toy]

I will dig to find this passage' date=' and all I remember is that it WAS an accepted, brown ajah, and that it was at the beginning of one of the latter books. (PoD or further)[/quote']

 

You might want to clarify that statement. It sounds like you are saying an Accepted of the Brown Ajah, and that ain't gonna happen.

 

Sorry about that. What I believe to remember is that she had an ink smudge on her nose or cheek. That might have made me think Brown Ajah. Obviously an accepted can't be. Like I said, let me dig this up, as I think it is an important clue.

[Alys Kinch]

sounds like danelle.

[havoc110]

People have already poked holes in this one, but my money is still on Meidani.

 

1) She matches the physical description. RJ uses "big blue eyes" or something to that effect in KoD to desribe both Mesaana and Meidani.

 

2) Unlike Danelle, who has faded out in the story, Meidani is front and center. Look for our next episode "Dinner in the Tower", where Elaida and Meidani have dinner with Egwene as serving girl. Strange place for Meidani to be in what RJ says will be the final book.

 

3) What better place for a incognito Forsaken to hide than in a group of BA hunters? This is where a lot of people set fire to this theory. But during the BA hunter initiation, all she had to do was swear on the rod: (A) she was not herself BA; and (B) obedience to the BA inner circle. If she really was Mesaana, she could get around these two things.

 

4) There was a Tarna POV in KoD (eliminating her from contention), but still not a Meidani POV.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I have the same problem accepting her as I do Danelle, in some ways more. People have known her for 20 plus years. You would need to do a pretty thorough job of pumping her for info to do a successful job of taking her place. Plus you have a warder to deal with. It isn't really to strange that she would be having dinner with Elaida since she was ordered to renew her friendship with Elaida. If she had any success at all in doing so, and since Elaida has almost no friends, Elaida would probably be desperate for dinner companions. You are correct that she could take the Oath against lying and still say she wasn't Black Ajah, but I can't see a Foresaken allowing herself to get bound that way. She could have just Compelled the whole crew into believing she did, but she would have needed to know in advance what to Compel them about.

 

I really don't know what to think. To me it just seems too hard for Messana to successfully impersonate any of the Aes Sedai that were in the Tower (or who were known by Aes Sedai in the Tower) at the time of Siuan being deposed. Masquerading as a person that is easily recognized would make avoiding detection too difficult. It wouldn't take much for people to start thinking you were acting out of character.

[havoc110]

I think this whole "masquerade" concept is misleading.

 

I think some (maybe most) think this to mean than she has taken the place of/switched places with someone in the tower (a real Aes Sedai who had lived in the tower prior to being "replaced" by Mesaana). I don't think that is the case. I think that she is pretending to be someone else, obviously, but there is no "actual version" of that person.

 

So, I think that she has ALWAYS been Meidani, or for that matter, whoever she turns out to be. That would mean there is no "real" Meidani.

 

I take all previous evidence to believe that she has been in the tower, with a very good cover, for a long time. Since before EOTW, perhaps even as early as NS. I assume that she escaped the Bore, invented an alter ego, and went to the Tower. Perhaps in preparation for the rebirth of the Dragon. We know she can mask her strength. Why not enroll as a novice? Make some friends along the way, perhaps a future Amyrlin Seat? Attain the shawl, shed those pesky Oaths, and away you go.

[havoc110]

Using another Forsaken, Rahvin, as an example:

 

He called himself "Lord Gaebril". That didn't mean there was an actual person named "Lord Gaebril". That was just an alias that Rahvin chose. Why would we think Mesaana is doing anything different?

 

Also, I used Rahvin when I first posted the Meidani Theory when people said that she couldn't possibly be a BA hunter. My response was this: If a Forsaken can somehow manage to become King of Andor, I think a Forsaken could pass herself off as a BA hunter.

 

Looking at the situation backwards, it sounds more plausible. If you were Mesaana, what would be the best cover for you? Consider that we know she is not the Amyrlin, the recently deposed Keeper, or the current Keeper.

[Alys Kinch]

she hasn't been in the tower long enough. hell, she hasn't been out of the bore long enough, unless you are trying to say she came out with ishy. and that couldn't be or she'd have the same type of scaring that balthamal had. medani slept with elaida when they were novices or accepted. and she wouldn't be able to go from new novice to full fledged, respected aes sedi in that time period. not even the super girls were able to do that.

[Guest Egwene]

I feel a weave that gives people the feeling that they have always known you would do it. Surely not impossible for Mesaana?

[havoc110]

Alys: I am interested in what you are saying about timing of release from the Bore. More info if you could, please, because it is not something I have completely delved into (no pun intended).

 

But to say that Meidani, couldn't have risen so far, so fast? I don't understand. In the same time since being novices Novices, Elaida became Amyrlin. In the same time since being Accepted, Siuan became Amyrlin and was overthrown. Surely Mesaana can get as far, as fast, no matter what her guise is, assuming she is stronger than either of the other 2?

 

Also, our earliest incident involving the BA is Tamra's death in NS. (I sort of look at it as the "coming out" party for the BA in the latest age.) Who's running the Black at this time? Surely the DO must have somebody in play. If Mesaana's running the Black now, why not then? Early speculations by other Forsaken at happy hours indicate she has been out of the Bore for a while, and completely hidden.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Meidani was an Accepted at the same time that Moiraine was. She is even mentioned in New Spring the Novel. She was a pillow friend of Elaida before Elaida gained the shawl. It was Elaida's becoming Aes Sedai that ended the friendship. This all happened up to 20 years before the current events.

 

There is no possibility of a weave making people think she was around all this time. She was there.

 

I for one do not believe she can have taken the place of any Aes Sedai with a documented history. And since there aren't really any unknown Aes Sedai, that rules most (all) of them out. She would have slipped up somewhere. There are just too many times you hear of things like time as novice, time as accepted etc, that every Aes Sedai knows about all of the others cause if they didn't the wouldn't know if they should defer or not.

 

Edit: corrected underlining code.

[Bob T Dwarf]

One of the major problems with Meidani is that she is one of Egwene's ferrets. She's trying to "play" Elaida.

 

But, since the ferrets were one of the things that Beonin gave up when she returned to the Tower, Elaida is "playing" Meidani even more viciously.

 

The fact that Elaida knows that Meidani is one of Egwene's spies is the whole reason she has ordered Egwene to dance attendance at the upcoming tete a tete.

[havoc110]

Ok, I answered some of my own questions. It was Ishy all along. Until at least he gets Moridin-ized.

 

So at somewhere around end of TDR/beginning of TSR, Mesaana gains control of the Black. Which would be easy, if we consider that she has an established position in the Tower (as whoever she is).

 

So what kind of knowledge is available as who escaped the Bore and when. Particularly concerning Mesaana?

(and now the whole "substitution" thing takes on a whole new meaning).

[Jedimuppet]

If she is masquerading as an AS (as opposed to a servant), then she *has* to have taken somebody's place, because it would be weird to have a sister that no one remembered as novice or accepted. I think it most likely is somebody who was gone a long time (retired, or in exile), or had no close relationships.

 

That being said, there's really no reason she *has* to be a sister, except we don't think she'd want to even play at being a servant.

J