Nicola's Foretelling

[the spider]

so i just joined and i don't know if this has been brough up before but i want to see if u guys can clarify it for me anyways. Nicola the novice Elayne and Nynaeve find makes a foretelling in LOC when Salidar experiences a bubble of evil.

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who goes beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. the future teeters on the edge of a blade."

so i am trying ot figure this out. i have read the entire series several times and some of this makes sense to me but the other is nonsense and i cannot rememeber whether RJ brings this up again later or if she ever makes another Foretelling or what. Can someone explain this.

[Luckers]

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who goes beyond.

 

This is wrong, it is she who sees beyond and refers to Elayne (the lion sword) Aviendha (the dedicated spear) and Min (she who sees beyond).

 

Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.

 

Given the progression it would seem that the three are Avi, Elayne and Min, and the he who is dead yet lives refers to Rand and ties in with the other various prophecies about his death, and a fake dead body on a funeral biar surrounded by those three.

 

Another interpretation is that it refers to Mat in someway, because he died and lives again, but this seems unlikely given he has no tie in with three people on a boat. The Rand connection is much stronger.

 

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle.

 

This could either be speaking to the fact that either after Tarmon Gai'don there will still be battles. Additionally it may refer to Dumai's Wells, or some other large pre-TG battle.

 

The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants.

 

The land devided by the return speaks of the Seanchan. It ties in with Amys' vision of Rand cutting the wetlands in two with a sword, and the phrase "The east must be bound to the north, and the west must be bound to the south" or whatever. Basically its speaking to the fact that there are only two factions growing, the land held by the Seanchan, and those held by Rand.

 

The servants are the Aes Sedai, and the guardians are the Asha'men. That part just speaks to the fact that the Asha'men are growing in numbers and political strength to equel that of the White Tower.

 

the future teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

Unless this is some obscure reference to Callandore, im inclined to say its just generic nosense used to end the foretelling.

[havoc110]

It seems that the series will end with a scene similar to either Morte D'Arthur or The Grey Havens at the end of LOTR, take your pick.

[hughroe]

the future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

It can go either way, the Light or the Dark, neither holds a clear superiority over the other

[Jonn]

I pretty much agree with Luckers' interpretation of the fortelling. This leads me to see that there is a point to RJ's long drawn out style, and how the woes of the hero are caused by people making a concept that should be simple, very hard and convoluted.

 

There is a great evil threatening human kind. Let's get together behind the Dragon who is fated to defeat it, and well...Defeat it! Simple. But no, Rand has to heed this person, overpower that person, be sensitive to this other person...He has three wives for Light's sake. He's fated to die, and even after he does it's not a foregone conclusion that things will turn out very well.

 

There is a certain pessimism involved in this tale. In any case, the Dark One doesn't seem to lose. You cannot destroy him. The best you can do is lock him away until some idiot releases him again.

 

Even if Rand wins the Last Battle, that's no guarantee that things will turn out alright, becuase of the human factor.

 

Even now, you'd think that an overwhelming source of evil bent on destroying humanity would unite nations to resist it, but that's not the case. Even though the entire world is being given signs of impending doom, there is still no stopping people from squabbling about a bunch of trivial cr@p.

 

It happens in our reality as well. Look at WWII. Overwhelming evil (The Nazi lead Axis) and the rest of the world squabbling and struggling for years to get on the same page to defeat them. After it's all over for that struggle, the Cold War grips the world. Colonial Africa falls apart, thrusting the entire continent into chaos. South America is crippled by corruption and revolution, and the drug trade all swirling around each other at once. Meanwhile, discontent grows in the Muslim world, setting up a showdown between greed and fanatical fundamentalism.

 

One great struggle is fought and it just splinters into a thousand more struggles. In our reality, the Dark One is pretty much a myth. He cannot touch us unless we invite him to, or we're sinful and in death he takes our soiled souls. He is the devil, a former servant of God. In a way he still serves God, by punishing those who do not live a good life. I guess the blessing is that the devil is just a story to us. There's no tangible army made of demons and monsters ready to march south and throw us into cookpots.

 

The question is; would such a thing unite us? The thing that gets me about this fantasy is the attitude the people have towards the Creator is kind of weak. If there is a Dark One, which it certainly confirmable, then it should be a certainty that there is a God, or Creator, to look after them.

 

People with gifts like the ability to channel or like Nicola, who can foretell also, don't seem to look at their abilities as gifts from the Creator. That strikes me as odd. No one seems to take their gifts as any confirmation of some kind of faith. They speak of the Creator as if He ignores them, yet they have these incredible talents, which they believe comes from the Power that drives the Wheel of Time...um...Yeah, the Creator should have something to do with that seeing as He you know...CREATED THEM. It all speaks to the greater pessimism underlying within the novels. Logain doesn't seem to believe that Rand had anything to do with the Cleansing of saidin, but he almost wryly remarks that ("...perhaps the Creator decided to have mercy on us.")

He doesn't seem to put much stock in the Creator or Rand even though he acknowledges both in an offhand way, as his betters. Take Masema as a foil, and even his supposed devotion has taken the form of fanatisism. He speaks as if Rand is the Creator made flesh, but he uses his offhand connection to Rand as a means to serve his own twisted ideas. Again, humanity interrupts what is supposedly devine.

Nicola usese her gifts not as gifts to serve, but as tools for status and extortion. Why? Generally she has no reference when it comes to how she should handle her power and the responsibility it engenders.

 

The Aes Sedai are the most powerful people on the planet and their connection to the Creator is mired by their stifling sense of pride and desire to manipulate matters. In fact, very few actually seem to see that the powers granted to them are given for a reason and a purpose that they must serve (besides their own or whoever convinces them of the importance of their personal purpose).

 

Whatever confirmations of good and evil exist in whatever form, will always be stifled by the interference of humankind. Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Abraham and all the saints, angels and minor gods could come down from the heavens preaching ALL ARE ONE UNDER CREATION, and we as humans would still find reason to debate: "Which ONE is it?"

 

I know this seems a bit off the topic of Nicola, but the fact that Nicola is such a flawed individual leads me to think about how everyone is flawed in the books. In fact, everyone is flawed, period. Even Fortellings are flawed, because they depend on human interpretation, which is flawed.

 

That's probably the Dark One's greatest hope for victory. Ours would be when the time comes that we can transcend our imperfections and actually act for the benefit of one another, threat of a Dark One or not.

That's my fortelling. Interpret it how you will.

[walkerhound]

not vary likely but the dedicated spear could refer to a male ail chanler. as the ashman ranks go solder -dedicated- ashman.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Walkerhound, the identities of the "three on a boat" are pretty well established at this point. Remember that Aiel means "dedicated" in the Old Tongue and Aviendha was a Far Daries Mai (Maiden of the Spear).

[Incubate]

I agree mostly with Luckers, but his explaination doesn't cover the possiblities..

 

it's odd, i had jsut re-read that part in the book last and made up a chart kinda thing on it...

 

 

i found that "and she who can see beyond" could also be Egwene or one of the Dreamwalkers, that would make sense, But it is most likly Min...

 

"The three on the boat," while it may seem to be Avi, Eylane and Min... It could also be Mat, Rand, and Perrin...or three of the Forsaken working together, b/c, the phrase "on the boat" usually means "working together" and "on a team" ...

 

The "and he who is dead yet lives" makes me think that the "Three on the Boat" are either Rand, Mat, and Perrin or Three Forsaken, b/c, Rand is as good as dead, but he yet lives...

 

or it could be the forsaken b/c they are being kill and they are bing reborn by the DO, they yet live...

 

the rest i agree with Luckers on...

[Incubate]

I agree mostly with Luckers, but his explaination doesn't cover the possiblities..

 

it's odd, i had jsut re-read that part in the book last night and made up a chart kinda thing on it...

 

 

i found that "and she who can see beyond" could also be Egwene or one of the Dreamwalkers, that would make sense, But it is most likly Min...

 

"The three on the boat," while it may seem to be Avi, Eylane and Min... It could also be Mat, Rand, and Perrin...or three of the Forsaken working together, b/c, the phrase "on the boat" usually means "working together" and "on a team" ...

 

The "and he who is dead yet lives" makes me think that the "Three on the Boat" are either Rand, Mat, and Perrin or Three Forsaken, b/c, Rand is as good as dead, but he yet lives...

 

or it could be the forsaken b/c they are being kill and they are bing reborn by the DO, they yet live...

 

the rest i agree with Luckers on...

[Luckers]

The "and he who is dead yet lives" makes me think that the "Three on the Boat" are either Rand, Mat, and Perrin or Three Forsaken, b/c, Rand is as good as dead, but he yet lives...

 

It doesn't work. The 'he who is dead yet lives' is seperate to the three on a boat. As it is likely either Rand or Mat that destroys the ta'veren trifecta. The posibility of it refering to those three and a forsaken as the one who is dead yet lives is there, but i doubt it. For starters it cloads the issue. It has three individuals who could be termed 'dead yet lives'.

 

Mostly, though, that part follows on from a sentence naming three people--with no purpose. It names them, then describes their position, on a boat with Rand's body. The three women and Rand are the only quartet set up in that way (three + one). Combined with the fact that others have seen the same image (of three people on a boat with another who is dead, yet not themselves for various reasons) And in each of those other cases it has been three women and Rand's fake dead body....

 

i found that "and she who can see beyond" could also be Egwene or one of the Dreamwalkers, that would make sense, But it is most likly Min...

 

I didn't. The other two names place the third in stone, and the sentence that follows after is paralleled in other visions. Additionally, just on the nature of that descritption--she who sees beyond--that Egwene of the Dreamwalkers could be termed to see beyond i dont question, but they would not be 'She' who sees beyond by the simple fact that many exist with their ability. Min's is unique.

[Duinn]

When I was reading Luckers reply it reminded me of a question that iI have been wondering on for a while. The reason for no relgion in WoT, no priest no real prayers, no real beliefs in an afterlife......

[Luckers]

The wheel of Time is much more like the eastern philosophies. The beliefs of that land bear much more similarities to the beliefs of Buddhism, Doaism and Confucianism and so on. The simple idea of the Wheel of Time, The Flame and the Void, the lack of a demand for faithfulness in the Creator (and therefore salvation through the creator) Salvation is achieved through action. Then there is the Seanchan, who are vaguely animistic, like the Bon (pre-buddhist Tibetans).

 

This means that they are very religious, just not in the archetype of western religion (i.e. theism). They have very specific beliefs on life after death, fatalism, the influence of fate, guiding powers and so on.

 

Prayer, priests, faithfulness to Gods... these are all toys of organised western religion.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

The "he who is dead yet lives" is defo referring to rand, as the "Dedicated Spear" and all that refer to Rands three loves. That foretelling doesnt mention mat, perrin or any of the Forsaken. The he who is dead bit is there to tell us that somehow Rand is still alive after the Last Battle. (By then though he will have died, ie to live you must die)

[Eelfinn]

The way I see it Rand and Lews Therin are the same person, so one of them has to die in the last battle for the other to survive, if the DO somehow kills Rand while Lews Therin has taken control then I think Lews Therin will die and Rand'll survive. That I think is how the 'he who is dead yet lives' will play out.

[Elena]

Didn't LTT promise Rand to die for good after Tarmon? It would come to suport your theory

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "The way I see it Rand and Lews Therin are the same person, so one of them has to die in the last battle for the other to survive, if the DO somehow kills Rand while Lews Therin has taken control then I think Lews Therin will die and Rand'll survive. That I think is how the 'he who is dead yet lives' will play out"

 

Lews Therins voice is only a symptom of Rands madness. Semirhage explained this in Knife of Dreams. So theres no way one must die for the other to survive because one already has died. Lews Therin isnt alive and hasnt been for three thousand years.

[Trib4l]

I don't agree. While LTT isn't "alive", he is definitely a real entity that can take control of Rand's body - we saw that when he was battling in TAR at one point and LTT tried to take over. He did it again with the OP at the beginning of KoD.

 

Think of it as 2 souls trapped in the same body. Both alive, but one in primary control for now...

[MetalMonkeyMood]

I also think that LTT is somehow in Rand's mind, not just a result of his madness. Rand has shown knowledge, about the forsaken and weaves for example, that only LTT could have known - he recognized Semirhage don't forget, and there's no way that was the result of madness. Just because Semirhage said something doesn't mean that she should be believed, don't forget that she's a forsaken and what the forsaken do best is spread chaos and confusion. What better way to spread chaos and confusion than get everyone to believe that their leader is already well in the throes of madness?

[waltersdc]

Luckers has the right of it for the most part. Although it depends on this fortelling being split into 3 parts. This is possible, if you will remember in "New Spring: the Novel" ch 2 Gitara's fortelling of Rands birth was not one sentence. So First:

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on a boat, and he who is dead yet lives.

 

Putting this together makes the "he who is dead" Rand. I do not believe it's Mat because since he was killed with balefire and brought back by the same only those who were still alive and present, visa vie Rand, would know of it ever happening. (not to mention it would ruin my line of thinking)

 

Second:

The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants.

 

After TG noone can believe that the Seanchan are just going to give up the land they have. The land divided by hte return could mean that they get to keep what they already have and noone is goning to be happy about that. thus more battles. The guardians balance the servents sounds verry much like an equaling between the numbers of Aes Sedi and Asha'man. However the black ajha may not have been completly purged, and along with the new dreadlords those battles will still be fought.

 

Third:

The future teeters on the edge of a blade

 

I agree fully with Luckers on this one, unless it is some obscure reference to callandor, it mneans that either side can still win which has been evident throught the entire series. Although we know that the DO will loose since as Ishmael said in book 3 "we have fought this battle countless times" and if evil ever won then why is the wheel not broken and the world remade. Remember Father of Lies.

[Eindar]

I'm with you guys except for the line about the 3 in the boat and he who is dead but lives.

 

"he who is dead but lives" is Mat. He's the only one who's been described this way, due to his hanging, death, and revival by Rand.

 

I think "Three on a boat" refers to the trip Mat is going to take with Thom and two others (I forget who's going to make this trip) to the Tower of Ghenji (sp?) to get Moiraine back.

[SinisterDeath]

I think "Three on a boat" refers to the trip Mat is going to take with Thom and two others (I forget who's going to make this trip) to the Tower of Ghenji (sp?) to get Moiraine back.

 

While that would be a very interesting take on that there is one problem...

 

 

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on a boat, and he who is dead yet lives.

 

Lion Sword is obviously Elayne.

Dedicated spear is obviously Aviendah.

she who sees beyond is Min.

So why would it be describing the above 3 women, but actually mean 'mat/thom/noal' ? One of rands prophecies is for him to live through the final battle he must die. *or something along those lines..

So from this we can basically concluded the 3 women = elayne/aviendah/min, and for some reason they are on a boat with a man who should be dead but isn't.

[UrsulaLV]

Ah, religion. I had wondered if anyone ever noticed the almost-total lack of religion.

 

Duinn, I attended the book signing in Pasadena, after KoD was released. When I got to the table to get my books signed, I asked my question. "Why is there no religion?" The Children of Light might rise to that level, and maybe The Way of the Leaf, but no real, organized concept of religion.

 

RJ answered that most religion is people meeting to affirm their own impressions and reassure each other. In a world where the miraculous happens every day, religion is not really needed. And there is no Book.

 

And I said, so you didn’t write any, and RJ said "Yes." And he smiled.

 

And, Nicola's Fortelling says, "Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives." It does not say he IS dead. Like the first three, I think this is a description of WHO, not HOW he is.

 

Could this be Rand, and the girls (Elayne, Avie, and Min) on a boat TO somewhere? Like the other side of tha Aryth Ocean, maybe, with Mat and Tuon? Going to fix Seanchan? Just a thought...

[Luckers]

Religion is rampant in the Wheel of Time, and i get angry (in a perfectly nice, harmless way) at those that suggest it doesn't. What is lacking is the trappings of organized, western religion. But western religious structure is a minority in the world for all the number of followers it has.

 

Ignoring the need for priests, blind faith in some bully that sits in the sky, churches, organized prayer meetings and the like, and what you have is a very developed understanding of spiritual life in the Wheel of Time.

 

They have very developed beliefs on what happens after death, on fate, and deities, on the nature of life and how humanity fits into that. The parallels with religions like buddhism, or Doaism or even Confucianism, Shinto, Bon or Aboriginal and Chinese folk religions are staggering. Then if you wanna get obscure the presence of pagan ideologies is rampant too, witchcraft, Santaria, Bonne Magie--the nature of the way the wheel works and impacts on the cycle of life is present throughout. And don't get me started on the Way of the Leaf.

 

You gotta forgive me, i study comparitive religions and i have a strong issue with those who disdain others religions practises because they don't fit the archetype of western religion. We westerners have been doing that for centuries and we have a lot to answer for.

 

Keep in mind too, that all religions look absurd to outsiders... Christianity began with two nudists taking dietry advice from a snake. And just because something like "The Wheel weaves as the wheel wills" looks absurdly simplistic doesn't not alter its religious significance to those who work within it. And we shouldn't disdain that.

[Roxinos]

Am I the only one here who cares more about Luckers' use of the word "Asha'men" then the actual topic? I suppose so.

 

Asha'man, being a title and of a different language than English, cannot be made plural by changing the "a" in "man" into "e". It is a word that is the same when used singular and plural.

[Luckers]

Sweetheart... im dyslexic... i wasn't trying to pluralize anything, i just misplaced an A with an E. You give me too much credit.