One Power strength

[Nightstrike]

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

 

You misunderstand. It's not the strenght of the channeler, it's the strenght of the WEAVE that matters. Let me try to explain. Lets say Lanfear tries to light a candle, and Sorilea tries to light another candle, using the exact same weave. It would not be harder for Rand to cut Lanfears weave, because it's the same weave.

Yes, maybe I have misunderstood. Please let me go along with that for a brief moment... Hmmm... Then those three Forsaken wouldn't have needed to link... Hmmm... They thought it was necessary... Hmmm... No, that can not be the correct explanation. Please try again.

[Nightstrike]

We know that Cyndane cut Alivias 1st weave, but we don't know how much strenght Alivia put behind that weave. Cyndane certainly didn't use much Power trying to kill Alivia at first.

 

Why wouldn't she try her hardest?!? She certainly has no reason to hold back. It seems very, very stupid to hold back in a fight of that kind. I most certainly would never, ever do that in any kind of situation that would even remotely resemble that one. Who would?

[Swigaro]

As I have understood it, with sheilding, sometimes numbers count more than strength.  Was it not stated that 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai linked could shield any man.  By the numbers presented in this thread, 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai linked would not be more powerful than Rand with his Angrael.  I would put forth that there is something inherent in either linking or shielding that makes this sort of shield unblockable.  If this is the case, shield from three linked forsaken may have been more effective than the raw strength numbers might suggest.  Furthermore, an unexpected shield from three of the most powerful channeler's ever, while Rand's attention was focused exclusively on Rahivn, could be increadibly effective. Slicing weaves, at least by the linked forsaken, has nothing to do with it.  Rahivn would simply try to stay alive while the linked forsaken try to shield Rand.  Even as powerful as Rand would be, do you think that he could fight off the shield attempt (which would require most, if not all of his strength) while Rahivn, who knew the shield on Rand was comming, shifted from defense to blocking anything Rand tried to do?  It was a good plan.  If they didn't get Rand into the Shielding Arm Westling match, what would stop him from breaking off his attack and escaping? 

 

[quote author=Nightstrike

link=topic=37372.msg997621#msg997621 date=1230044630]

We know that Cyndane cut Alivias 1st weave, but we don't know how much strenght Alivia put behind that weave. Cyndane certainly didn't use much Power trying to kill Alivia at first.

 

Why wouldn't she try her hardest?!? She certainly has no reason to hold back. It seems very, very stupid to hold back in a fight of that kind. I most certainly would never, ever do that in any kind of situation that would even remotely resemble that one. Who would?

 

I disagree.  She would have ample reason not to try her hadrest.  She didn't know if this would be her first of one, eight or four hundred encounters that day.  I think it far more likely that she tried to be economical with her strength.  It wasn't until she realized the nature of her enemy that she threw everything into the battle.  Everone at Shadar Logoth had an idea that it was going to be a long day. 

[Nightstrike]

As I have understood it, with sheilding, sometimes numbers count more than strength.

 

Exactly!!!!!!!

 

 

 

I disagree.  She would have ample reason not to try her hardest. She didn't know if this would be her first of one, eight or four hundred encounters that day.

So what?

 

 

I think it far more likely that she tried to be economical with her strength.  It wasn't until she realized the nature of her enemy that she threw everything into the battle.  Everone at Shadar Logoth had an idea that it was going to be a long day. 

Oh, yeah, (even if you're right, which you are not) WHEN she threw everything she got into the fight, Cyndane STILL managed to slice her weaves. Because otherwise Cyndane would have been dead or shielded (either would have done the job). But Cyndane sliced her weaves and got away. So, that would mean that Cyndane COULD slice Alivia with *angreal's flows.  Which contradicts Mr Ares made up theory. End of story.

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Mr Ares, reply #71

There is absolutely nothing to rule out Alivia at any strength in relation to Cyndane - weaker, equal to or stronger. That is the limit of the facts.

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

So at what point does it become impossible to cut weaves? We know Cyndane cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. You fail to address that.

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

The reasons for linking are the same, whether or not weaves can be cut. If it makes no sense with, it makes no sense without. If you do not think much of the plan to link, why does the ability to cut weaves change it? If there is a limit beyond which you cannot cut someones weave, because they are just too strong for you, where does this limit lie? What evidence do you have for its existence? What evidence do you have for the difference in strength between Alivia and Cyndane, beside Alivia being stronger in the encounter? If you cannot answer these questions, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing. That said, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing anyway. You have already lost, after all. This is just getting you to admit defeat.

 

Mr Ares, reply #154

And Rahvin should have defeated Rand in the throneroom.

How? Rand can cut Rahvin's weaves as well. If cutting weaves was all that mattered, it would be a stalemate. Until one weave got through.

 

Mr Ares, reply #154

Weren't some of the Forsaken planning to link and use Sammael as bait?

Yes they were. I still fail to see the relevance.

 

Mr Ares, reply #169

But you still insist that there must be a point beyond which the other person is so strong you cannot cut their weaves, which you provide no evidence to support, largely because you made it up, and not only that you place this imaginary line in a wholly arbitrary place, which just so happens, by some miracle, to support you! Hallelujah!

 

Mr Ares, reply #154

We know Cyndane was able to cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. We do not know how much stronger, nor do we know beyond what point it would be impossible for her to cut weaves, or even if there is such a point.

 

 

 

 

[Swigaro]

 

I disagree.  She would have ample reason not to try her hardest. She didn't know if this would be her first of one, eight or four hundred encounters that day.

So what?

 

 

If you are running a marathon, do you start out sprinting as fast as you can or do you pace yourself?  More to the point, if you are running a race that may be 10 miles, 50 or 100, would you start out sprinting, or, rather, would you pace yourself?  Alivia has been channeling for a very long time, even if she isn't as well trained as Cyndane.  She would have a very good idea of her own limitations.  Why would she put everything she had into her first action of the day, not knowing if five minutes later 10,000 Trollocs are going to come running out of the bushes?

 

 

 

I think it far more likely that she tried to be economical with her strength.  It wasn't until she realized the nature of her enemy that she threw everything into the battle.  Everone at Shadar Logoth had an idea that it was going to be a long day. 

Oh, yeah, (even if you're right, which you are not) WHEN she threw everything she got into the fight, Cyndane STILL managed to slice her weaves. Because otherwise Cyndane would have been dead or shielded (either would have done the job). But Cyndane sliced her weaves and got away. So, that would mean that Cyndane COULD slice Alivia with *angreal's flows.  Which contradicts Mr Ares made up theory. End of story.

 

 

 

 

 

You simply saying I am wrong does not make it true.  What you state next is correct though.  The fact that Cyndane was able to slice Alivia's weaves proves nothing, except that she was able to slice Alivia's weaves.  Mr. Ares said that there may be a point at which Channeler strength makes it impossible to slice their weaves, but that there is no evidence in the books for or against it (please forgive me, Mr Ares, if I am missunderstanding you).  He was, as I read it saying exactly what you stated in the above post.  His point, I believe, is that there is nothing in the text to suggest that there is a point at which strength makes weave slicing impossible.  If it is not in the text, it may be possible, but it is not fact.  On this point, he is right.  There is no contradiction there.

[Nightstrike]

I disagree.  She would have ample reason not to try her hardest. She didn't know if this would be her first of one, eight or four hundred encounters that day.

So what?

 

If you are running a marathon, do you start out sprinting as fast as you can or do you pace yourself?  More to the point, if you are running a race that may be 10 miles, 50 or 100, would you start out sprinting, or, rather, would you pace yourself?  Alivia has been channeling for a very long time, even if she isn't as well trained as Cyndane.  She would have a very good idea of her own limitations.  Why would she put everything she had into her first action of the day, not knowing if five minutes later 10,000 Trollocs are going to come running out of the bushes?

Why would she "be running the marathon"? They were (originally) 13 Forsaken. Even if they were 16 now (unlikely), she would have to deal with, what, 2-6 of them. And if she does not survive the first one, she sure won't be around to face the last of them. And what reason does she have to suspect a bunch of Trollocs to appear at a place they fear? Shadowspawn can't even Travel through Gateways, so needless to say - I disagree completely with you on this point. Sorry.

 

 

 

 

I think it far more likely that she tried to be economical with her strength.  It wasn't until she realized the nature of her enemy that she threw everything into the battle.  Everone at Shadar Logoth had an idea that it was going to be a long day. 

Oh, yeah, (even if you're right, which you are not) WHEN she threw everything she got into the fight, Cyndane STILL managed to slice her weaves. Because otherwise Cyndane would have been dead or shielded (either would have done the job). But Cyndane sliced her weaves and got away. So, that would mean that Cyndane COULD slice Alivia with *angreal's flows.  Which contradicts Mr Ares made up theory. End of story.

 

 

 

You simply saying I am wrong does not make it true.

No, but I've proven my point in previous posts. No need to repeat myself.

 

What you state next is correct though.  The fact that Cyndane was able to slice Alivia's weaves proves nothing, except that she was able to slice Alivia's weaves.

I did not say that, so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

 

Mr. Ares said that there may be a point at which Channeler strength makes it impossible to slice their weaves, but that there is no evidence in the books for or against it (please forgive me, Mr Ares, if I am missunderstanding you).  He was, as I read it saying exactly what you stated in the above post.  His point, I believe, is that there is nothing in the text to suggest that there is a point at which strength makes weave slicing impossible.  If it is not in the text, it may be possible, but it is not fact.  On this point, he is right.  There is no contradiction there.

As I've already proven, it really is in the text. Otherwise those 4 Forsaken could have handled Rand much easier without ever considering linking. But they did consider it. Point proven.

 

[Nightstrike]

Mr Ares, reply#139

If Alivia had been 3 times Cyndane's strength, she could easily have spent half her strength on maintaining a protective shield around herself and the other half on attacking Cyndane. That would still, in all probability, have kept Cyndane from flight - ultimately resulting in a victory for Alivia.

But we know that that any attack Alivia tried would be cut by Cyndane, who can indirectly attack in ways that would unbalance her enough to make good her escape.

 

 

Mr Ares, reply #127

I am more than half right. I am, in fact, entirely right. We have some guidelines, yes. But there is enough flexibility in them for Alivia to be weaker or stronger than Cyndane, or equal to her. She might even be as strong as Lanfear. We cannot say, with certainty. We can't even say most likely this way, or that way. There is not enough evidence to justify Cyndane as stronger, or Alivia as stronger.

 

Mr Ares, reply #132

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

Or you could forward a decent argument. Either way.

Yes, Mr Ares, please forward a decent argument!

[General Cauthon]

Why wouldn't she try her hardest?!? She certainly has no reason to hold back. It seems very, very stupid to hold back in a fight of that kind. I most certainly would never, ever do that in any kind of situation that would even remotely resemble that one. Who would?

 

It's just as easy to kill someone without using a weave that requires all the strenght you can muster. Why send 1000 lightnings, when 1 is enough to kill. And Cyndane used a small undetectable fireball against Alivia. That fireball probably would've killed Alivia without her ter'angreal, but I doubt Cyndane used all her strenght to make a tiny ball of fire....

 

You misunderstand. It's not the strenght of the channeler, it's the strenght of the WEAVE that matters. Let me try to explain. Lets say Lanfear tries to light a candle, and Sorilea tries to light another candle, using the exact same weave. It would not be harder for Rand to cut Lanfears weave, because it's the same weave.

Yes, maybe I have misunderstood. Please let me go along with that for a brief moment... Hmmm... Then those three Forsaken wouldn't have needed to link... Hmmm... They thought it was necessary... Hmmm... No, that can not be the correct explanation. Please try again.

 

Had you read the entire post, you would've seen that when shielding someone, you use all your strenght to cut the other person off from the Power. Then the WEAVE aka the shield is too strong from someone weaker in the Power to cut. That's why they wanted to link. Only linked would they be strong enough to shield Rand.

 

Oh, yeah, (even if you're right, which you are not) WHEN she threw everything she got into the fight, Cyndane STILL managed to slice her weaves. Because otherwise Cyndane would have been dead or shielded (either would have done the job). But Cyndane sliced her weaves and got away. So, that would mean that Cyndane COULD slice Alivia with *angreal's flows.  Which contradicts Mr Ares made up theory. End of story.

 

Unless Cyndane fled before Alivia had time to use her greater strenght. All we know is that Cyndane cut Alivias 1st weave, we don't even know if Alivia had time to attack again before Cyndane fled.

 

And Mr Ares acknowledges that it's a theory, while you claim that your theories are fact, without providing any proof.

 

No, but I've proven my point in previous posts. No need to repeat myself.

 

I must have overlooked the "proof", but since you seems to be recycling the entire topic, could you please insert the "proof" as well?

[Nightstrike]

Had you read the entire post, you would've seen that when shielding someone, you use all your strenght to cut the other person off from the Power. Then the WEAVE aka the shield is too strong from someone weaker in the Power to cut. That's why they wanted to link. Only linked would they be strong enough to shield Rand.

Look, I'll take this one more time. At least 2 of those 4 Forsaken would've been strong enough - all according to Mr Ares - to cut all of Rand's weaves. The other 2 would be free to do whatever they wanted, compulsion, knocking him unconscious, whatever, younameit. Why would they give over control to another Forsaken if they don't need to? They don't trust eachother. Why? There must be a reason. The reason in question contradicts Mr Ares.

 

Unless Cyndane fled before Alivia had time to use her greater strenght. All we know is that Cyndane cut Alivias 1st weave, we don't even know if Alivia had time to attack again before Cyndane fled.

Why would Alivia let her, if Cyndane couldn't cut her weaves. This proves that Cyndane could cut her weaves. Even Mr Ares has been so kind as to agree on this matter. So both me and Mr Ares agrees on something (for a change).

 

 

No, but I've proven my point in previous posts. No need to repeat myself.

 

I must have overlooked the "proof", but since you seems to be recycling the entire topic, could you please insert the "proof" as well?

Get your lazy butt over to the previous page.

 

 

[Swigaro]

I disagree.  She would have ample reason not to try her hardest. She didn't know if this would be her first of one, eight or four hundred encounters that day.

So what?

 

If you are running a marathon, do you start out sprinting as fast as you can or do you pace yourself?  More to the point, if you are running a race that may be 10 miles, 50 or 100, would you start out sprinting, or, rather, would you pace yourself?  Alivia has been channeling for a very long time, even if she isn't as well trained as Cyndane.  She would have a very good idea of her own limitations.  Why would she put everything she had into her first action of the day, not knowing if five minutes later 10,000 Trollocs are going to come running out of the bushes?

Why would she "be running the marathon"? They were (originally) 13 Forsaken. Even if they were 16 now (unlikely), she would have to deal with, what, 2-6 of them. And if she does not survive the first one, she sure won't be around to face the last of them. And what reason does she have to suspect a bunch of Trollocs to appear at a place they fear? Shadowspawn can't even Travel through Gateways, so needless to say - I disagree completely with you on this point. Sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

That would be great if all they had to worry about was the forsaken.  Furthermore, we don't find out that shadowspawn can't pass through a gateway until KOD.  They would have no reason to suspect, at that time that they couldn't, so sorry, from there perspective at the time, it was a real threat.  Even taking that for granted, how many black ajah might have shown up?  What would have stopped a forsaken from dropping a Gholam into the mix, or an army of normal folk for that matter.  We know what did happen.  We have a better idea about what could or could not have been done, but none of them knew what they might be facing.  Saying shadowspawn can't go throug a gateway doesn't change Alivia's perspective on the battle she was facing.  The Seanchan don't even believe in shadowspawn.  One might as well say she wouldn't expect a shadowspawn army because she doesn't believe in them.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, but Lews Therin knew about Shadowspawn/Gateways, and maybe Verin too (if it was know among the Brown Ajah, she probably knew).

 

Black Ajah members usually don't know about Gateways. Even so, they would have been a minor problem compared to the Forsaken.

[Swigaro]

Yeah, but Lews Therin knew about Shadowspawn/Gateways, and maybe Verin too (if it was know among the Brown Ajah, she probably knew).

 

Black Ajah members usually don't know about Gateways. Even so, they would have been a minor problem compared to the Forsaken.

 

At that time the only person who might have been able to pass on that information was LTT.  No one else, apart from the forsaken, who certainly wouldn't have volunteered that information.  Even if that were the case, LTT would have had to stop raving, tell Rand, while he was cleansing Saidin, at which point Rand was in no position to pass that information along. 

 

The Black Ajah could have been a problem, if they had shown up in force, through a forsaken gateway, linked and started doing exactly what the defenders were doing.  Yes, individually a Forsaken is much less of a problem than a Black Ajah Aes Sedai.  But 50 Black Ajah Aes Sedai are not a minor problem.  They didn't know what they would be facing.  Alivia would not have wasted strength when it might not be necessary.

[Nightstrike]

At that time the only person who might have been able to pass on that information was LTT.  No one else, apart from the forsaken, who certainly wouldn't have volunteered that information.  Even if that were the case, LTT would have had to stop raving, tell Rand, while he was cleansing Saidin, at which point Rand was in no position to pass that information along. 

Sorry, but I disagree. LTT could have provided the information before, or Verin could have known they couldn't pass through Gateways. But even if none of them did, Asmodean would have known - and he had every reason to teach Rand as best he could (he even dreamed of Rand winning against the DO). Moghedien could have provided the information during her captivity also. Huge chances of the good guys knowing about this.

 

The Black Ajah could have been a problem, if they had shown up in force, through a forsaken gateway, linked and started doing exactly what the defenders were doing.  Yes, individually a Forsaken is much less of a problem than a Black Ajah Aes Sedai.  But 50 Black Ajah Aes Sedai are not a minor problem.  They didn't know what they would be facing.  Alivia would not have wasted strength when it might not be necessary.

The Forsaken were not prepared for this. They had to drop everything they were doing and go. And the vaste majority of the Forsaken don't even recognise the Black Ajah sisters. Those BA sisters would fall prey of Forsaken as well as good guys. It would be a death-trap for those poor little black sisters. Pity them!

 

 

[Swigaro]

At that time the only person who might have been able to pass on that information was LTT.  No one else, apart from the forsaken, who certainly wouldn't have volunteered that information.  Even if that were the case, LTT would have had to stop raving, tell Rand, while he was cleansing Saidin, at which point Rand was in no position to pass that information along. 

Sorry, but I disagree. LTT could have provided the information before, or Verin could have known they couldn't pass through Gateways. But even if none of them did, Asmodean would have known - and he had every reason to teach Rand as best he could (he even dreamed of Rand winning against the DO). Moghedien could have provided the information during her captivity also. Huge chances of the good guys knowing about this.

 

 

 

 

 

No.  Sorry.  This isn't a point that is debateable.  We know with 100% certainty when this information came out.  In KoD.  From Rand, by way of LTT's memories.  LTT could have told them earlier.  Verin could have found some scrap of knowledge somewhere.  Asmodean or Moghedien could have told someone.  But they didn't.  If they had, Rand's news would not have come as such a surprise.  No chance of the good guys knowing about this.  Asmodean tells Rand he is a terrible choice for a teacher.  He takes so many things for granted, he never knew what to tell Rand.  Basicly if it didn't occur to Rand to ask, there was no guarentee he would learn it from Asmodean.  Frankly, Moghedien wasn't much better.  The Wondergirls learned much from her, but she also tried to pass on a good bit of misinformation, like the supposed weave to detect a man channeling that did nothing but give you a headache.  Propose as many reasons why they could have know as you like.  We know that they didn't know, thus, a sudden attack by hordes of shadowspawn was a credible threat.  It had happened before, in Tear after all.

 

 

 

The Black Ajah could have been a problem, if they had shown up in force, through a forsaken gateway, linked and started doing exactly what the defenders were doing.  Yes, individually a Forsaken is much less of a problem than a Black Ajah Aes Sedai.  But 50 Black Ajah Aes Sedai are not a minor problem.  They didn't know what they would be facing.  Alivia would not have wasted strength when it might not be necessary.

The Forsaken were not prepared for this. They had to drop everything they were doing and go. And the vaste majority of the Forsaken don't even recognise the Black Ajah sisters. Those BA sisters would fall prey of Forsaken as well as good guys. It would be a death-trap for those poor little black sisters. Pity them!

 

 

 

 

Yes, we knew that the Forsaken were unprepared for this.  Yes, after reading the book, we know that the response the Forsaken mounted was pathetic, at best.  Hindsight is 20/20.  Do you honestly believe that they were expecting this sort of response from the forsaken?  Again, we know that not every forsaken has connections within the Black Ajah, but did Rand and Company?  Seperate what we the readers know from what the characters know and the picture looks very different.  I think Rand's followers were shocked that they fared so well.  One Ashaman killed and Alivia injured in a battle against the most powerful channelers ever?  The forsaken's unpreparedness cost them the day, but to imply that this unpreparedness was expected is shortsighted.  Think also, how much different the Cyndane/Alivia fight might have gone if Cyndane threw a few expendable Black Aes Sedai at Alivia before engaging her herself.  If Cyndane knew the protections that Alivia had before she revealed herself, she could have done any number of things differently. 

[Dmitri]

Sorry, but I disagree. LTT could have provided the information before,

Assumption. No proof in the text...

or Verin could have known they couldn't pass through Gateways.

Assumption #2. No proof in the text...

But even if none of them did, Asmodean would have known - and he had every reason to teach Rand as best he could (he even dreamed of Rand winning against the DO).

Assumption #3. Still no proof in the text...

Moghedien could have provided the information during her captivity also.

Assumption #4. Again and again no proof in the text...

  Huge chances of the good guys knowing about this.

Nope, so far no chance.

But, we have a fact:

No.  Sorry.  This isn't a point that is debateable.  We know with 100% certainty when this information came out.  In KoD.  From Rand, by way of LTT's memories. Asmodean or Moghedien could have told someone.  But they didn't.  If they had, Rand's news would not have come as such a surprise.

 

What would we believe? A fact or a number of assumptions without basis?

 

 

[Nightstrike]

We know LTT didn't tell Rand between they were used (at Algarin's mansion) and when he told Logain about it. Could you 2 guys provide the quote where it says with 100% certainty that Rand knew about Shadowspawn & Gateways in KoD - and no sooner. Because I would like to see that quote myself. I'm waiting with excitement.

 

And whilst you're looking for the quote, if they really were expecting 10 000 Shadowspawn, they would have had too small an "encircling defense". This takes some major assumptions of YOUR's - not supported by the text. My assumptions were actually supported (in every way) by the way things actually went down. Your assumptions were that we could expect a bunch of Forsaken, 10 000 Shadowspawn and a big number of Black Ajah. The text DO NOT make room for those kinds of assumptions.

 

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

If they had, Rand's news would not have come as such a surprise. 

We only get to hear that Logain didn't know about it, and Logain wasn't at the cleansing.

 

 

If they really were expecting 10 000 Shadowspawn at the cleansing, they would have had too small an "encircling defense". This takes some major assumptions of YOUR's - not supported by the text. My assumptions were actually supported (in every way) by the way things actually went down. Your assumptions were that we could expect a bunch of Forsaken, 10 000 Shadowspawn and a big number of Black Ajah. The text DO NOT make room for those kinds of assumptions.

 

 

 

 

[Dmitri]

Your assumptions were that we could expect a bunch of Forsaken, 10 000 Shadowspawn and a big number of Black Ajah. The text DO NOT make room for those kinds of assumptions.

 

Tell me, do you really think that Rand & Co were so light-headed that they didn't foresee possible confrontation at the Cleansing? Or they would just say: "Oh, no-one would see it, so why bother? We can relax and have some tea..."

It's highly reasonable they would be ready to stand against unknown number of enemies, be it Black Ajas, Forsaken or hordes of Shadowspawn. Don't you think so?

[General Cauthon]

We know LTT didn't tell Rand between they were used (at Algarin's mansion) and when he told Logain about it. Could you 2 guys provide the quote where it says with 100% certainty that Rand knew about Shadowspawn & Gateways in KoD - and no sooner. Because I would like to see that quote myself. I'm waiting with excitement.

 

Ltt hardly tell Rand anything, but memories drift from one to the other. This is the first time this fact is introduced to the books though. He could have told them before, but that's just speculation, with no backing in the books.

 

And the last time Rand was in Shadar Logoth he met Shadowspawn. Rand knew very well that the Forsaken could bring them through the Ways.

 

And whilst you're looking for the quote, if they really were expecting 10 000 Shadowspawn, they would have had too small an "encircling defense". This takes some major assumptions of YOUR's - not supported by the text. My assumptions were actually supported (in every way) by the way things actually went down. Your assumptions were that we could expect a bunch of Forsaken, 10 000 Shadowspawn and a big number of Black Ajah. The text DO NOT make room for those kinds of assumptions.

 

Actually we know that Rand didn't plan any defence, hadn't Cadsuane & co joined the group in Far Madding, Rand would've started with only him and Nynaeve, with Min Lan and Alivia as guards. Rand was so focused on the Cleansing, that he apparently didn't consider how to counter any of the Forsaken showing up. That's why he let Cadsuane take charge, he didn't intend to give them any orders.

 

The Forsaken were not prepared for this. They had to drop everything they were doing and go. And the vaste majority of the Forsaken don't even recognise the Black Ajah sisters. Those BA sisters would fall prey of Forsaken as well as good guys. It would be a death-trap for those poor little black sisters. Pity them!

 

A circle of 3 BA and 1 Forsaken could beat everyone, except the circle wielding Callandor. All they would need to do to win was to kill Elsa before she spots them.

 

Or they could've just opened a Gateway on top of Rand, slicing him in two.

 

But this didn't happen, and it's pointless to speculate in what could've happened.

 

If they really were expecting 10 000 Shadowspawn at the cleansing, they would have had too small an "encircling defense". This takes some major assumptions of YOUR's - not supported by the text. 

 

MY assumption is that Rand didn't plan ANY defence, and this is supported in the text.

 

My assumptions were actually supported (in every way) by the way things actually went down. Your assumptions were that we could expect a bunch of Forsaken, 10 000 Shadowspawn and a big number of Black Ajah.

 

 

Your assumption was that Rand told everyone that they didn't have to worry about Shadowspawn OR Black Ajah/Ashaman. But After Travelling to SL Rand doesn't speak with anyone but Nynaeve. Just because noone came doesn't mean that they knew this in advance. I'm just saying that they didn't know what to expect. So Cadsuane set up the best defence she could with what she had.

 

 

The text DO NOT make room for those kinds of assumptions.

 

 

You are not the one to preach about this Nightstrike. Not all of your assumptions are backed by the text either.

 

[Nightstrike]

Your assumptions were that we could expect a bunch of Forsaken, 10 000 Shadowspawn and a big number of Black Ajah. The text DO NOT make room for those kinds of assumptions.

 

Tell me, do you really think that Rand & Co were so light-headed that they didn't foresee possible confrontation at the Cleansing? Or they would just say: "Oh, no-one would see it, so why bother? We can relax and have some tea..."

It's highly reasonable they would be ready to stand against unknown number of enemies, be it Black Ajas, Forsaken or hordes of Shadowspawn. Don't you think so?

No, I don't think they were light-headed at all. And that was my point. If they had expected 10 000 Shadowspawn, all the Forsaken and a big number of Black Ajah circles, then they would have had more and better "encircling defenses". But they didn't. And I still don't think they were light-headed. So, they must have known there were little risk of having to face 10 000 Shadowspawn (and all that). They must have been aware that the Forsaken would come, but I still don't think they were light-headed. And I will never begin to think they were light-headed. And I have never ever thought they were light-headed. So, what was your point, anyway?

[Tyrell]

Oh come on. What's the point?

 

This is going absolutely nowhere, and will continue to go absolutely nowhere, at least until the release of AMoL and probably forever, because unless new information becomes available then it is absolutely im-frikkin-possible to prove any of this crap.

[Mr Ares]

My theory is that there is nothing in the books to support you.

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

This is really not a good way to go about arguing. I tell you what my argument is, and what it is not, and you tell me that I'm wrong!? The arrogance is incredible. Yes, this board has no shortage of arrogant tossers, but this takes the cake. I specifically stated that my argument is not and never was that you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength, nor did I make any claims as to anyone being three times anyone elses strength. I'm not sure where you get this rubbish, but if you want to claim my argument is something that what I tell you it is, then you better have some damn good evidence for that claim, or your just an arrogant little idiot, whose just decided to piss off the wrong guy. Now, for some strange reason you have taken to copy and pasting my statements, not to refute them, just to present them. I don't know why, but it's useful if anyone (such as yourself) had forgotten what they were. Maybe, if you had done that before this idiotic train wreck of a post that I'm responding to, you wouldn't seem quite so incapable of understanding, let alone addressing, my point. To give some examples of things I said, that you quoted:

There is absolutely nothing to rule out Alivia at any strength in relation to Cyndane - weaker, equal to or stronger. That is the limit of the facts.

We know Cyndane was able to cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. We do not know how much stronger,

So, per my own words, quoted by you, I said nothing like what you claimed I was saying. Did you really think nobody would notice? Did you really think that if you say, on the internet, when anyone who can be bothered can go back and check these quotes, when anyone with the memory of a goldfish would remember, the exact reverse of what those quotes of mine you saw fit to provide, that nobody would notice that what you claim my argument is is completely different to what my own words show my argument to be? Are you really so stupid that you thought this would pass everyone by? How could you possibly consider that you would get away with it? That it would just go unnoticed? Furthermore, leaving aside your delusions as to what my argument is, you then say you have disproved what you imagine my agument to be, when you have not only not done so, you have also not disproved what my argument actually is! It beggars belief, it really does. And you say I will never realise how you have damaged my argument? I comprehend completely how badly damaged my argument it - not a jot. It stands, completely, with no harm done after all you pitiful attempts. The sad and simple truth is that this post reveals that not only have you not done anything - anything - to disprove me, you make a claim to what my argument is that completely contradict what I say it is, which either means you haven't understood it, or you intentionally claimed my argument to be something other than what it was. And what makes the whole thing funny is that not only did you set up a strawman, you completely failed to knock it down! You couldn't even knock down the strawman you set up! What's not to love! If nothing else, this could certainly make my Christmas. This has to top everything! Still, managing to both piss me off not just with the same post, but with the same argument has got to have something going for it.

 

Your opinion on the matter is worth little, your numbers even less.

It does not matter how strong the angreal is or what strength Rand is (we know Rahvin=Rand and Lanfear is stronger), your made up theory falls short anyway.

We know Rahvin is stronger? We know? Seems like you need to re-read that quote you provided. I did, and I used it to disprove this - Rand thinks Rahvin is perhaps as strong as him. Perhaps. A far cry from the proven fact you make it out to be. Now, given we don't know precisely how strong any of the participants are in relation to each other, how much strength is lost in linking, how strong the relevant angreals are, and other factors, we do not know how close Alivia and Cyndane were with the angreal, how close Rand and Rahvin were, how strong the unlinked foursome, and the linked three (plus Sam) would be compared to Rand, with or without the fat man or Callandor. So we cannot say rubbish like "you can't cut the weaves of someone three times your strength", because we don't know how strong any of them are. There are far too many variables, yet you state as fact something with no support. You claim there to be support where none exists. You claim my position to be something other than what it is, but fail to do any damage to either. You have no evidence, none at all to support you, and that's what I've been arguing all along.

 

Without the circle they would not be strong enough.

Yes! Finally something we can agree on!

With it they might be.

The numbers that would take would also mean, according to your made up theory, that they do not need to link. But they thought they needed it. So your made up theory is wrong. To quote you from another thread:..."Veni Vidi Vici".

You're disproven. How about that!

All theories are made up, Nightstrike, so drop the tautology. I'm not disproven either, despite what you claim. I'm not even damaged. You may have come, but you haven't really seen, you certainly have yet to conquer. Try again. Remember, you need to be stronger than someone to shield them when they are already holding the Power. Without a link, there would be a number of shields, not one of them strong enough. With a link, there would be one that might be strong enough. You say nothing to alter that reality. You do not disprove my theory. You do not even give me cause to stop and rethink. You point out no holes that need filling. Except to your own eyes, that is. You see a disproven theory where no-one else does. If nothing else, this stands as a poor testament to your arguing skills. Give up. You cannot win, all you can do is salvage some dignity from the wreckage by admitting you've lost.

 

As I have understood it' date=' with sheilding, sometimes numbers count more than strength. Was it not stated that 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai linked could shield any man.  By the numbers presented in this thread, 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai linked would not be more powerful than Rand with his Angrael[/quote']Actually, they probably would be except in the case of a very strong angreal.

 

Oh' date=' yeah, (even if you're right, which you are not) WHEN she threw everything she got into the fight, Cyndane STILL managed to slice her weaves. Because otherwise Cyndane would have been dead or shielded (either would have done the job). But Cyndane sliced her weaves and got away. So, that would mean that Cyndane COULD slice Alivia with *angreal's flows.  Which contradicts Mr Ares made up theory. End of story.[/quote']This doesn't appear to make any sense. My "theory", that there is nothing to support you, is not contradicted by this. Because this doesn't support you, thus adding further evidence to my argument that nothing supports you.

 

Mr Ares said that there may be a point at which Channeler strength makes it impossible to slice their weaves' date=' but that there is no evidence in the books for or against it (please forgive me, Mr Ares, if I am misunderstanding you)[/quote']No, you appear to have understood it, even if Nightstrike still struggles. Not only is there nothing to support it, despite what Nightstrike claims, he also imagines this line put in such a place so as to support his argument, which there is also no evidence for, and he says this contradicts my argument, which he fails to understand, and doesn't even contradict what he claims my argument is, let alone what it actually is. There is no evidence, it is that simple. And Nightstrike has so far failed utterly in his attempts to disprove that.

 

No' date=' but I've proven my point in previous posts. No need to repeat myself.[/quote']Notice how you idea of proving your point doesn't seem to match up with anyone elses, and you seem quite willing to repeat yourself on some things. Just not this imaginary proof, shot down every time it rears its ugly head.

 

As I've already proven, it really is in the text. Otherwise those 4 Forsaken could have handled Rand much easier without ever considering linking. But they did consider it. Point proven.

You saying so does not make a point proven. Given that every time you say they could have handled him better unlinked this has been disagreed with, disproven, I'd say you're on thin ice here. You need to give this part of your argument more back up, because what you've said so far convinces no-one, and is repeatedly shot down in flames. They considered linking because they could better handle him linked. This is reasonable. But thinking they could better handle him linked says nothing at all about the ability to cut flows. Nor about your imaginary limit. We've said this, over and over. The mere fact that they would be capable of slicing Rand's flows unlinked proves nothing. And there is nothing to say they would be incapable. You imagine evidence to exist where none does.

 

That's why they wanted to link. Only linked would they be strong enough to shield Rand.

True. So it makes sense to link. And the ability to cut weaves is a non-factor. How many times do you think we'll have to say it before the message gets through to Nightstrike?

 

Look' date=' I'll take this one more time. At least 2 of those 4 Forsaken would've been strong enough - all according to Mr Ares - to cut all of Rand's weaves. The other 2 would be free to do whatever they wanted, compulsion, knocking him unconscious, whatever, younameit. Why would they give over control to another Forsaken if they don't need to? They don't trust eachother. Why? There must be a reason. The reason in question contradicts Mr Ares.[/quote']They can cut his weaves, and he theirs, yes, we've been over this. How is it important that they can cut his weaves? It isn't, except inside your tiny mind. But they cannot compel him, because you can't compel a man holding saidin. And knocking him unconcious is not without risks, no matter what Hollywood might have taught you. What if they accidentally kill him, or give him brain damage beyond their ability to Heal, or just can't knock him out? If they want to capture him, then the best way of doing that is cutting him off from the Source, so he can't fight back, and then tying him up with the Power and taking him to SG. Which they cannot do if they don't link, because they lack the required strength advantage. Hence the need to link - it's the only way to shield him. You can hardly claim to have "proved" anything, if the only bit of evidence you put forward has been gone over, and shown to not support your argument. You need a counter-argument, to show how it does. You need to actually address the points that we raise against you. Or, you need to give up and admit you've lost. Simply saying, over and over, that you've proved your point when nobody else can see how, and saying, "the Chosen wouldn't link if they could still cut weaves" doesn't get you anywhere, because if they don't link they can't shield Rand. That, they need to be linked to do, even if anything else can be done unlinked. If they want to shield, they have to link. There is a reason to link, regardless of the ability to cut weaves, so your "proof" lies in tatters. You have not proved your point.

[Swigaro]

Your assumptions were that we could expect a bunch of Forsaken, 10 000 Shadowspawn and a big number of Black Ajah. The text DO NOT make room for those kinds of assumptions.

 

Tell me, do you really think that Rand & Co were so light-headed that they didn't foresee possible confrontation at the Cleansing? Or they would just say: "Oh, no-one would see it, so why bother? We can relax and have some tea..."

It's highly reasonable they would be ready to stand against unknown number of enemies, be it Black Ajas, Forsaken or hordes of Shadowspawn. Don't you think so?

 

No, I don't think they were light-headed at all. And that was my point. If they had expected 10 000 Shadowspawn, all the Forsaken and a big number of Black Ajah circles, then they would have had more and better "encircling defenses". But they didn't. And I still don't think they were light-headed. So, they must have known there were little risk of having to face 10 000 Shadowspawn (and all that). They must have been aware that the Forsaken would come, but I still don't think they were light-headed. And I will never begin to think they were light-headed. And I have never ever thought they were light-headed. So, what was your point, anyway?

 

 

 

 

My point was not that they were expecting a horde of Shadowspawn.  My point, and what the text clearly supports, is that they had no idea whatsoever what they would expect.  Rand gave absolutely 0 guidance, and only the breifest of warnings as to what was about to happen.  Cadsuane set up the best defense she had with the resources she had at her disposal.  Saying "If they had suspected A, they would have done B," proves nothing.  If Cadsuane could have built a 50 foot wall around the whole valley, she would have.  If she could have had every Aes Sedai in the tower to lend to the defense, she would have.  She did none of these things, because they weren't options.  She used what she had, not knowing what would happen. 

 

As far as when we found out about the Shadowspawn/Gateway connection.  We were told in KoD.  There is nothing in the text, for or aginst anywhere before KoD.  Yes, I suppose it is possible that they all knew that Shadowspawn couldn't go through gateways at Shadar Logoth.  It is also possible that the thought that went through Rand's head right before he saw the Fade on the rode in chapter 1 of TEoTW was, "Gee, we are all alone out here.  Its a good thing Shadowspawn can't go through gateways."  Technically, it is no less likely.  However, since we are given such a dramatic revelation of a fact, coupled with the rediscovery of a lost weave that put said fact into practice, I am going to go with the idea that no one knew that Shadowspawn couldn't go through gateways until the scene in KoD.  As no text refutes this, logic says no one knew before this point. 

 

The point is, what actually happend at the battle is irrelivant.  They had about 10 minutes to prepare.  They had absolutely no idea what might get thrown at them.  An assault of shadowspawn, whether it came pouring out of the Waygate, or through a gateway was a credible threat.  They mounted the best defense against an unknown enemy. 

[Nightstrike]

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

This is really not a good way to go about arguing. I tell you what my argument is, and what it is not, and you tell me that I'm wrong!? The arrogance is incredible. Yes, this board has no shortage of arrogant tossers, but this takes the cake. I specifically stated that my argument is not and never was that you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength, nor did I make any claims as to anyone being three times anyone elses strength. I'm not sure where you get this rubbish, but if you want to claim my argument is something that what I tell you it is, then you better have some damn good evidence for that claim, or your just an arrogant little idiot, whose just decided to piss off the wrong guy. Now, for some strange reason you have taken to copy and pasting my statements, not to refute them, just to present them. I don't know why, but it's useful if anyone (such as yourself) had forgotten what they were. Maybe, if you had done that before this idiotic train wreck of a post that I'm responding to, you wouldn't seem quite so incapable of understanding, let alone addressing, my point.

 

Please let me refresh your memory.

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

If someone 1/3 the strength can burn the other one's arm to the bone and walk away to tell the tale, then strength truly don't matter at all.

Yes, it does. And you still are unable to provide any evidence to support your position. All you can do now is misrepresent mine. We know Alivia was stronger. We do not know how much stronger.

 

 

Mr Ares, reply #148

You speak in favour of imaginary odds. So your point is that because Cyndane is able to cut weaves, there is less difference in strength? That only supports your point if you make further assumptions about the relationship between strength of weave and strength required to cut it.

 

Mr Ares, reply #127

I am more than half right. I am, in fact, entirely right. We have some guidelines, yes. But there is enough flexibility in them for Alivia to be weaker or stronger than Cyndane, or equal to her. She might even be as strong as Lanfear. We cannot say, with certainty. We can't even say most likely this way, or that way. There is not enough evidence to justify Cyndane as stronger, or Alivia as stronger.

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

So at what point does it become impossible to cut weaves? We know Cyndane cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. You fail to address that.

 

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

The reasons for linking are the same, whether or not weaves can be cut. If it makes no sense with, it makes no sense without. If you do not think much of the plan to link, why does the ability to cut weaves change it? If there is a limit beyond which you cannot cut someones weave, because they are just too strong for you, where does this limit lie What evidence do you have for its existence? What evidence do you have for the difference in strength between Alivia and Cyndane, beside Alivia being stronger in the encounter? If you cannot answer these questions, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing. That said, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing anyway. You have already lost, after all. This is just getting you to admit defeat.

 

Mr Ares, reply #169

But you still insist that there must be a point beyond which the other person is so strong you cannot cut their weaves, which you provide no evidence to support, largely because you made it up, and not only that you place this imaginary line in a wholly arbitrary place, which just so happens, by some miracle, to support you! Hallelujah!

Arrogance, yes indeed!

 

 

Your opinion on the matter is worth little, your numbers even less.

It does not matter how strong the angreal is or what strength Rand is (we know Rahvin=Rand and Lanfear is stronger), your made up theory falls short anyway.

We know Rahvin is stronger? We know? Seems like you need to re-read that quote you provided. I did, and I used it to disprove this - Rand thinks Rahvin is perhaps as strong as him. Perhaps.

We know Sammael is as strong as Rand and that, according to you, Lanfear is the second strongest Forsaken. Lanfear alone should be able to cut all of his weaves, according to you. We have solid evidence of Sammael's strength in the books, but I forget, you and Luckers don't put any faith whatsoever about what is written in the books. Well, I do. I would hope some others do too, otherwise why would they read them? Rahvin might not be exactly as strong as Rand, but your theory falls short anyway - because if all of them were (or rather "could have been") less than 1/3 of Rand's strength with the angreal, then their circle would be all too weak. You are disproven, no matter how much you deny it.

 

Oh, and by the way, the opinions of a man who thought (probably still thinks) that average Aes Sedai is 50% of Lanfear’s strength, or that lifting things/Gateway sizes could be determined exponentially, is not worth much to me.So our opinions seem to be worth little to each other (it works both ways).