One Power strength

[Gentled Ben]

I quoted the book. The text clearly states that he sliced the shields; I even highlighted it for you.

[Thor]

Everytime a weave is actually cut, there is a rebound of the weaves.  Where is the rebound of the weaves when he "cut" the shields?

 

A knife cutting at another knife is a block, not a cut.

[Gentled Ben]

No, cutting is slicing. Two knives cutting are two knives making cuts--note that Rand felt a "nick" each time she slammed the shield down on him. If RJ wanted it to be a block, he would have treated it as two swords clashing, not two knives cutting. Nowhere in the book does he describe a sword fight with one sword "cutting" the other sword to indicate a block. Making up new meanings for the words in the text does not make the words in the text support your faulty assertion.  ::)

[Nightstrike]

I can give you my little theory about cutting weaves. I don't think the strenght of the channeler matters at all, but rather that the amount of Power used to construct the weave determines whether or not you can cut it. And I believe that the point at which you cannot cut it is when the amount of Power used to form the weave is more then you can handle yourself.

 

This would explain how neither Nynaeve nor Moghedien could cut the others weave. Nynaeve put all her strenght behind the shield, and Moghedien could not cut it since she was equal to Nynaeve in strenght.

 

In all the examples from the books where we have seen a weave being cut, I cannot remember anyone where the strenght of the "weave" was greater then that of the person who cut it.

Moggy cut Nynaeve's weave (TSR, 54) and Cyndane sliced Alivia's weave (WH, 35). Are you suggesting Alivia held back 1/2 or 2/3 of her strength? Because that doesn't seem reasonable at all.

 

And a weave of both saidar and saidin is stronger then either one separatetly. The only proof I have of this is that that was how they did it in the AoL. They knew. Which is why Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael planned to use a mixed circle against him. If Lanfear just wanted any circle, she could have just brought in 10 Black Ajah.

Yeah, but the Demandred circle show us that a man can face a circle of 1 man and 2 women, when the circle is his own strength. "As hard as his own spinning would" (WH, 35) - Damer Flinn=very strong, linked with 2 average strength Aes Sedai. And about the strength advantage, see quote from RJ:s blog:

The reduction also occurs for men entering a circle. One man in a circle means that only the amount of saidin that he can handle' date=' less the reduction for being in a circle, is available.[/quote']

Maybe the strength reduction is less for a man/woman circle than it is for a woman only circle? Maybe we'll get some answers on that in AMoL?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Oh, and by the way, the difference between blocking/cutting is rather uninteresting when it comes to the 4 Forsaken versus Rand plot. One or two to cut/block all his weaves and two or three to surround him and rain every weave they see fit upon him would work equally well. Makes no difference in the end.

 

Note to any new-arriver to this thread: I don't believe in that scenario myself. I used it to make a point. (Just thought I should clarify that in order to avoid misunderstandings).

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Rand never did slice Lanfear's shields. He blocked them.

Even if that was true, which Gentled Ben has clearly shown it isn't, what is the relevance?

 

May I say that having read through this abortion of a thread with the morbid fascination with which one views a bloody car accident, I have yet to see Nightstrike prove his point or disprove Luckers (who had sense enough to back away from the bad smell early on), Cauthon, Dmitri, and numerous others who have posted, much less Mr Ares, who has pwned him like a noob in a bad online video game from the very beginning?

You may indeed. *Takes a bow*

 

Note to any new-arriver to this thread: GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!!! Quickly, before Nightstrike brings up his discredited arguments again!

 

Really, there is only one thing left for this thread: a victory speech.

 

My fellow Dragonmounters. One score pages ago our fathers brought forth on this forum, a new thread, conceived in idiocy, and dedicated to the proposition that we can put all chanelers on a scale despite the lack of evidence. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that theory or any theory so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here. It is for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored people who got bored and gave up we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these bored shall not have got bored in vain — that this thread, under Mr Ares, shall have a new birth of sense and well thought out arguments — and that sane theories of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

 

[Nightstrike]

One score pages ago our fathers brought forth on this forum, a new thread, conceived in idiocy,

Oh, no! Mr Ares is bringing up my intelligence (again)! I happen to know my test scores, and I trust them more than I trust him judging me correctly.

 

and dedicated to the proposition that we can put all chanelers on a scale despite the lack of evidence.

I've never said they were "the real thing". They were my assessments. And far better than those that Mr Ares or Luckers have put forth so far, I have no fear.

 

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that theory or any theory so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here. It is for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored people who got bored and gave up we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these bored shall not have got bored in vain — that this thread, under Mr Ares, shall have a new birth of sense and well thought out arguments — and that sane theories of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

A great war? You are no warrior. You're not even a man. You're only a little boy.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I've never said they were "the real thing". They were my assessments. And far better than those that Mr Ares or Luckers have put forth so far, I have no fear.

What assessments have we put forward? Our entire argument is based on the fact that we do not have enough evidence to make any assessments. Making the whole exercise pointless. How many times do I have to tell you this before you are actually capable of understanding what my argument is?

 

A great war? You are no warrior. You're not even a man. You're only a little boy.

Go away. If there is one thing I do not like is people like you taking that attitude when they have no idea what they are talking about. And, in case it passed you by (which it appears to have done), that speech was an edited Gettysburg Address. Hence "a great civil war". Part of the orginal speech.

 

Now, as the saying goes, always finish on a song:

 

    Mr Ares' flag is deepest red,

    It shrouded oft your martyr'd dead

    And ere your limbs grew stiff and cold,

    Your hearts' blood dyed its ev'ry fold.

 

    I raise my scarlet standard high,

    Within its shade your theory dies,

    Though cowards like Nightstrike flich and sneer,

    His theory keeps on dying here.

[Nightstrike]

I swear, if they made a comedy show out of Mr Ares, then I wouldn't miss an episode. But they might wanna change the name, otherwise it might be confused with "Mr Bean".

[Nightstrike]

What assessments have we put forward? Our entire argument is based on the fact that we do not have enough evidence to make any assessments. Making the whole exercise pointless. How many times do I have to tell you this before you are actually capable of understanding what my argument is?

Hmmm... What assessments have you two put forward? Well, that medium strength Aes Sedai are at 50% of Lanfear's strength. That the Forsaken were able to cut any flow - ANY flow! That Lanfear could the same strength as Alivia. That gateways/lifting things could be determined exponentially from their strength (Luckers) or anything (else) but their strenght (Mr Ares). That someone 3 times or 5 times (or anything else) can cut another one's weaves's. But you chose to say simply that "Nightstrike is wrong" when I made it clear that it wasn't RJ's "real thing" and only my assessment and my "best guesses" (from the 1:st post). And YOU chose to put (in your little lyric):

Though cowards like Nightstrike flich and sneer,

Am I really the coward here? I put forth my best assessments/evaluations/best guesses and YOU say simple "you're wrong". Of course I'm wrong! That was why I simply stated that it was my "best guesses"/"best evaluations"/"best assessments"!!!!!! If I really knew what I was talking about, then all of you would have known too (and that includes Mr Ares). But I don't know. And neither do you. That was why I did my assessment in the first place! Because I DID NOT know! I stated as much as that in my first post and I've done so in my later posts! Can I be any clearer than that?

 

 

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Oh, and before Mr Ares says anything, I DID make an adjustment to my post 15 days later. It was because I changed my assessment of Lanfear's and Alivia's strength (and those in between) - it was ONLY about their strengths and NOT about the "my best guesses" part!

[Nightstrike]

Or, I could quote myself from 2 days after the thread was started:

It's all wild speculation. But based on power struggles among characters and so on, of course.

 

And that quote was from a post that hasn't been altered since it was created. November 17:th (the year 2008) and a quote from Nightstrike (me) myself.

[FootstepsofDeath]

After having read this back and forth, I proclaim Mr Ares teh winrar!

[Mr Ares]

After having read this back and forth, I proclaim Mr Ares teh winrar!

Seems like everyone, bar Nightstrike, can see that.

 

I swear, if they made a comedy show out of Mr Ares, then I wouldn't miss an episode. But they might wanna change the name, otherwise it might be confused with "Mr Bean".

I think the names Ares and Bean are sufficiently dissimilar that most, yourself excluded, would have no difficulty telling them apart. Of course, there is one slight problem - you would be the only one laughing at me, everyone else would be laughing with me, but at you.

 

What assessments have we put forward? Our entire argument is based on the fact that we do not have enough evidence to make any assessments. Making the whole exercise pointless. How many times do I have to tell you this before you are actually capable of understanding what my argument is?

Hmmm... What assessments have you two put forward? Well, that medium strength Aes Sedai are at 50% of Lanfear's strength. That the Forsaken were able to cut any flow - ANY flow! That Lanfear could the same strength as Alivia. That gateways/lifting things could be determined exponentially from their strength (Luckers) or anything (else) but their strenght (Mr Ares). That someone 3 times or 5 times (or anything else) can cut another one's weaves's.

Yet again, you fail to comprehend the nature of my argument even when clearly stated. For all we know, any or all or none of those things are true. The point is, there is no evidence to place Alivia anywhere in relation to Cyndane, nor in relation t Lanfear. She could be between them, equal to Lanfear, below Cyndane, there is no evidence to say. You tried to put her at a given strength, and my argument was that we have no reason to put her at that strength, and no matter how hard you tried you could not produce a reason why we should, because there is none. We do not know if there is a point of uncuttable strength, or if there is, where it lies. But you claim there is one and place it somewhere that is awfully convenient to your argument, and I have shown that there is no reason for us to put it there, nor any reason to even believe it exists anywhere. I say there is no evidence to support you, I disprove all your arguments, and what do you put forward? Nothing. Because there is nothing. Now, is there any reason to believe that you cannot cut the weaves of someone five times your strength? No. Nor is there any reason to say you can. The idea of some sort of limit has not cropped up, that is the point. Where Alivia stands in relation to Lanfear or Cyndane has not cropped up, that is the point. We do not have any evidence to say either way.

And YOU chose to put (in your little lyric):

Though cowards like Nightstrike flinch and sneer,

Am I really the coward here?

Well, I had to go with something that fits. But yes, intellectual cowardice. Demonstrated by your refusal to admit that I am right, even though it has been clearly shown. A braver man would have looked at the arguments and admitted a self-evident truth - that I am right, and you are wrong. They would have admitted that, and then not carried on.

I put forth my best assessments/evaluations/best guesses and YOU say simple "you're wrong".

No, I also put forward reeasons why you're wrong. Lists of reasons. Every point you put forward is proven wrong, leaving us with nothing. Now, elements of your list can be considered correct - anything backed up by the facts. But that is precious little. We certainly have no basis for any numerical assessments. But even when evidence is against a particular placement you still went with it - Ishamael being lower than Rand, even though evidence says he should be equal, or the low placement of Aginor. And then you started adding in people that we have no evidence to place. Any attempt at something like this is pointless and doomed to failure, given that we do not have any reason to place people at a given strength. It just turns into, "I like X, I'll place her high, Y is a tosser, he's near the bottom". Personal preference. Not even educated guesswork. Your "best guess" is thus worthless. Your "best assessment" is, more often than not, no different to your worst. There is no difference. And if we have no reason to place most people at a given strength, then why should we place these people at a given strength? It is idiotic. And yet how many times did you try to defend the indefensible? How many times did you try to justify weak Aginor, or Alivia-beneath-Cyndane, when one is clearly wrong and the other has no more evidence for it than for any other placement? It is not a "best guess" worthy of the name. And we point this out to you over and over and over and over but you still don't get it. You still try and justify your placements. Even when the evidence is against, you still try. Even when there is no evidence you try and manufacture some, and every time you tried it was shot down. And how many times did you put forward some assessment and claim that it "proved" your point in some obscure way only you could see, and then refused to give the elaboration necessary for other people to see it? And every time, it was shot down in flames, but you still tried.

Of course I'm wrong!

I'm glad you can finally see it.

 

Really, what is there left to say?

My fellow Dragonmounters. One score pages ago our fathers brought forth on this forum, a new thread, conceived in idiocy, and dedicated to the proposition that we can put all chanelers on a scale despite the lack of evidence. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that theory or any theory so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here. It is for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored people who got bored and gave up we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these bored shall not have got bored in vain — that this thread, under Mr Ares, shall have a new birth of sense and well thought out arguments — and that sane theories of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Gods bless Dragonmount.

[General Cauthon]

Moggy cut Nynaeve's weave (TSR, 54) and Cyndane sliced Alivia's weave (WH, 35). Are you suggesting Alivia held back 1/2 or 2/3 of her strength? Because that doesn't seem reasonable at all.

 

Yes, I suggest that Alivia used a weave that didn't require all of her strenght to form. I cannot think of any weave Alivia would know where it would be natural to use huge amounts of the Power. It's not reasonable to assume that Alivia threw a fireball the size of a house at Cyndane.

 

We know that Nynaeve made a weave of Air to smash Moghediens face, but it doesn't say how much Power Nynaeve used to make that weave. I think it's unlikely that she used all her strenght though.

 

 

Yeah, but the Demandred circle show us that a man can face a circle of 1 man and 2 women, when the circle is his own strength. "As hard as his own spinning would" (WH, 35) - Damer Flinn=very strong, linked with 2 average strength Aes Sedai. And about the strength advantage, see quote from RJ:s blog:

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant here, I shall try to explain better: Let's use the protection that were around Callandor as an example. Let's say that they used 100 "units" of the Power to make the protection. If they only used 100 units of Saidar the strenght of the protection would be 100. If they only used 100 units of Saidin the strenght of the protection would be 100. But if they used 50 units of Saidar AND 50 units of Saidin, the strenght of the protection would be more than 100, because of the effect when using both halves of the One Power.

 

And since we don't know which weave Flinn used, or how much of the Power he used we can't use this encounter to determine how much extra effect a mixed circle gives. It is mentioned several places in the books though, that using both Saidar and Saidin together increases the effectiveness of the weave. There's just no way of telling how much yet.

 

 

 

[Thor]

No, cutting is slicing. Two knives cutting are two knives making cuts--note that Rand felt a "nick" each time she slammed the shield down on him. If RJ wanted it to be a block, he would have treated it as two swords clashing, not two knives cutting. Nowhere in the book does he describe a sword fight with one sword "cutting" the other sword to indicate a block. Making up new meanings for the words in the text does not make the words in the text support your faulty assertion.  ::)

 

Quote the passage again please where it says he felt a nick, because I don't see it.  Two sharp edged weapons slamming into each other causes nicks as well, there does not need to be cutting involved.

 

Sharp meets sharp = block.  When two swordmen's sword clash, you wouldn't say one of them cut the other guy's attack, so why would you here?

 

And as for Mr Ares, you ask for relevance and the point?  There is no relevance, there is no point.  What is the relevance of this entire series then, do tell me?  Do these books stop all conflict in the world and cure diseases?  If you want things to be relevant, then this is not the place for you.  Go to your bedroom, go into your bed and sleep, because that is more relevant than anything you can hope to find on these forums.

[Mr Ares]

And as for Mr Ares, you ask for relevance and the point? There is no relevance, there is no point. What is the relevance of this entire series then, do tell me? Do these books stop all conflict in the world and cure diseases? If you want things to be relevant, then this is not the place for you. Go to your bedroom, go into your bed and sleep, because that is more relevant than anything you can hope to find on these forums.

Just when I think my opponents in this thread have got as dumb as they can, they prove me wrong. It is, believe it or not, possible to make relevant points in an argument without your argument carrying out major humanitarian work. Admittedly, if you have an argument capable of major humanitarian work I'm not objecting to you using it. But your statements clearly show that you don't know why "relevant" or "point" actually mean. This is a Wheel of Time Discussion Forum, so anything discussed on here can be considered relevant if related to the Wheel of Time. This thread started out to do with One Power strength, but has branched a little to encompass various side topics that have arisen. If someone said, in the middle of a debate, "I like soup", then while it may be true, it might give us cause to wonder why you said it as soup has nothing to do with what was being discussed. It would be a non sequitur. Your comment seemed to be a non sequitur. I asked what the relevance was, why you brought it up, what it had to do with what was being talked about? Your response was that there was no relevance. A non sequitur. So why bring it up? Well, because there is no relevance to any discussion on these boards. What? Why? What the hell does the stopping of conflict and the curing of disease have to do with what was being talked about in this thread? If nothing, why did you bring it up? Just what in the name of bloody hell are you talking about? And does anyone else fancy some soup?

[Gentled Ben]

 

Thor wrote:

Quote the passage again please where it says he felt a nick, because I don't see it. 

I highlighted it for you in the original post.

When two swordmen's sword clash, you wouldn't say one of them cut the other guy's attack, so why would you here?

You wouldn't say that one cut the other's attack, because cutting isn't blocking. I'm glad we agree.

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Of course I'm wrong!

I'm glad you can finally see it.

 

Really, what is there left to say?

I stated as much as that in my first post and I've done so later on also. Only YOU, who call others "idiots", would be STUPID enough not to see it. That is, if we're not counting the other marks of stupidity that Mr Ares have presented in this thread. It was ludicruos to consider average Aes Sedai at 50% of Lanfear's strength (which was Luckers' argument, but Mr Ares did not object that "we can't know"), it was idiotic to suggest that the Forsaken can cut any flow, it was brain-dead to suggest lifting things were determined by something enterily different from OP strength, and so on. Mr Ares, in addition to your other failings as a person, you're the biggest idiot on these forums. And surely that's why you keep calling others "idiot"! You have got to take it out on someone else, don't you? Well, I for one, can see right through you. I hope others do too.

[Mr Ares]

Of course I'm wrong!

I'm glad you can finally see it.

 

Really, what is there left to say?

I stated as much as that in my first post and I've done so later on also. Only YOU, who call others "idiots", would be STUPID enough not to see it. That is, if we're not counting the other marks of stupidity that Mr Ares have presented in this thread. It was ludicruos to consider average Aes Sedai at 50% of Lanfear's strength (which was Luckers' argument, but Mr Ares did not object that "we can't know"), it was idiotic to suggest that the Forsaken can cut any flow, it was brain-dead to suggest lifting things were determined by something enterily different from OP strength, and so on. Mr Ares, in addition to your other failings as a person, you're the biggest idiot on these forums. And surely that's why you keep calling others "idiot"! You have got to take it out on someone else, don't you? Well, I for one, can see right through you. I hope others do too.

Nightstrike, why do you continue doing this to yourself? You must surely know by now that it is only going to end badly for you. You did not say you were wrong in your first post. You said you were making your best guesses, which is not the same thing at all. A best guess may, after all, end up being correct. Your original plan was to put forward a list with all the channelers on, showing, with lots of nice numbers, things like how strong they are in relation to one another. Problems arise, however, when you take into account that there is no basis for any of those numbers. Furthermore, there is no basis for most of those placements, and little enough for the rest. But even when there was evidence to the contrary, you chose to ignore it in favour of whatever took your fancy. Even when your "best guess" was shown to directly contradict the facts, you still held to it. You can't just brush that under the carpet by saying you were just making a best guess, or by saying you were bound to be wrong on some things. This is you refusing to have your mind changed by the evidence, and now trying to claim what? That the plan was always to be wrong? That that was your intention? So why all this argument? It can't be for the purpose of reasoned debate, as your refusal to listen to reason shows. So why? Just to troll? And what marks of "stupidity" have Mr Ares shown in this thread? You say it is ludicrous to say that Aes Sedai strength is 50% of Lanfear's (which Aes Sedai strength? Average? Minimum? Maximum? All?), but you cannot say why it is ludicrous. Furthermore, it was not even my argument. I do not have to support it, nor do I have to object to it. If you want Luckers to show you his working, I'm sure he can. In fact, I've seen this argued many times before. If you want him to support his point, ask him. But it is not my point, and me neither supporting nor contradicting it cannot be taken as idiocy by any reasonable person. You say it is idiotic to suggest the Chosen can cut any flow, but why is it idiotic? We've been over this several times, and you can put forward any reason why they shouldn't be able to, nor can you put forward any reasonable place to put the line, if it does exist, that is not just randomly stuck wherever you fancied sticking it. The only reason you can put forward for it being idiotic amounts to it being idiotic because you say it is, which is no reason at all. All the evidence you put forward to support was shown to not support you at all. So, not idiotic, so much as fairly reasonable. We have no reason to believe in the existence of a limit beyond which it is impossible to cut flows. Not idiotic in the slightest, so much as completely correct in every particular. As for brain-dead to suggest lifting is determined by something other than OP strength, was that my argument? Or was my argument that we do not know if ability to lift increases in a linear or exponential, or something else, fashion? In which case, lifting would indeed be determined by OP strength. And you do not say why either what I said or what you said I said could even be considered brain-dead. As with everything else you have said, you cannot justify it. Empty words. A voice and nothing more. Every argument you have put forward has been dealt with, proven wrong. There is nothing to support you. And this idiocy is apparent only to you. No-one else can see it. What does that tell you? That everyone else on the board is to dumb to see it, or maybe that you need to take a good long look in the mirror and work out who the idiot really is. Now, your choices at the moment appear to be as follows: Put forward an argument. Give up and go. Carry on talking irrelevant rubbish. All your arguments have been disproven, so unless you have something new there is little point. Talking irrelvant rubbish like you have been in recent post is a good way to piss off the mods, which is a little unfair on them. Or go away, which is easy on them, easy on me, easy on you, and allows you to escape with at least some dignity intact. Now, can we consider this at an end?

[Nightstrike]

Or, I could quote myself from 2 days after the thread was started:

It's all wild speculation. But based on power struggles among characters and so on, of course.

 

And that quote was from a post that hasn't been altered since it was created. November 17:th (the year 2008) and a quote from Nightstrike (me) myself.

A quote from myself quoting myself. Mr Ares keep forgetting things, and need constant reminders.

[Nightstrike]

You did not say you were wrong in your first post. You said you were making your best guesses, which is not the same thing at all. A best guess may, after all, end up being correct. Your original plan was to put forward a list with all the channelers on, showing, with lots of nice numbers, things like how strong they are in relation to one another. Problems arise, however, when you take into account that there is no basis for any of those numbers.

See my post just befor this one if you need another reminder. I can give another quote from myself from later in this thread, if you need more "proof" of my intentions.

 

But even when there was evidence to the contrary, you chose to ignore it in favour of whatever took your fancy. Even when your "best guess" was shown to directly contradict the facts, you still held to it. You can't just brush that under the carpet by saying you were just making a best guess, or by saying you were bound to be wrong on some things.

Bullshit!

 

This is you refusing to have your mind changed by the evidence, and now trying to claim what? That the plan was always to be wrong? That that was your intention? So why all this argument? It can't be for the purpose of reasoned debate, as your refusal to listen to reason shows. So why? Just to troll?

Because I thought it was fun to speculate a little. And have you always known RJ's exact intentions and all correct answers to everything you have theorized about? Sure, you can have your theories, but until it gets published, anyone can argue about Mesaana's identity, Asmodean's killer, Demandreds plans/aliases, and whatever. People do that for fun. At least I do.

 

And what marks of "stupidity" have Mr Ares shown in this thread? You say it is ludicrous to say that Aes Sedai strength is 50% of Lanfear's (which Aes Sedai strength? Average? Minimum? Maximum? All?), but you cannot say why it is ludicrous.

Have you forgotten already that it was the mean of all Aes Sedai that was mentioned as being 50% of Lanfear's strength? And yes, it is indeed ludicrous.

 

Furthermore, it was not even my argument. I do not have to support it, nor do I have to object to it. If you want Luckers to show you his working, I'm sure he can. In fact, I've seen this argued many times before. If you want him to support his point, ask him. But it is not my point, and me neither supporting nor contradicting it cannot be taken as idiocy by any reasonable person.

You and Luckers had a common cause, working against "my scale" from early on. You went after all my statements with great effort. You even commented on Ndshacker talking about his teacher (not Luckers), while the discussion went along the lines of that "50% of Lanfear's strength". If all my arguments are damned beyond redemption in your eyes, then surely you should have wasted more effort on Luckers' ideas - because they were way, way more wrong than any of those of mine that you have attacked so far. But you didn't. So my conclusion is that you must have thought that he could have known that. Otherwise you would have said the same thing to him as you said to me:..."we can't know".

 

 

You say it is idiotic to suggest the Chosen can cut any flow, but why is it idiotic? We've been over this several times, and you can put forward any reason why they shouldn't be able to, nor can you put forward any reasonable place to put the line, if it does exist, that is not just randomly stuck wherever you fancied sticking it. The only reason you can put forward for it being idiotic amounts to it being idiotic because you say it is, which is no reason at all. All the evidence you put forward to support was shown to not support you at all. So, not idiotic, so much as fairly reasonable.

Yes, we've been over this. And your arguments are still among the most idiotic things I've ever seen.

 

 

Carry on talking irrelevant rubbish. All your arguments have been disproven, so unless you have something new there is little point. Talking irrelvant rubbish like you have been in recent post is a good way to piss off the mods, which is a little unfair on them. Or go away, which is easy on them, easy on me, easy on you, and allows you to escape with at least some dignity intact. Now, can we consider this at an end?

You're the one talking irrelevant rubbish. A lot of it.

[Luckers]

To throw in, I'm going through a rather messy breakup and don't wanna deal with anything at all at the moment--however I gotta agree that Ares is not me, and your comments seem directed at me.

 

Have some patience lad. I'll get to you when I'm over my funk. Trying to have that discussion with Ares is just silly.

 

[Mr Ares]

But even when there was evidence to the contrary, you chose to ignore it in favour of whatever took your fancy. Even when your "best guess" was shown to directly contradict the facts, you still held to it. You can't just brush that under the carpet by saying you were just making a best guess, or by saying you were bound to be wrong on some things.

Bullshit!

Not so. As I have pointed out recently, and as was pointed out to you at the time, your placement of Aginor is far below where the facts indicate he should be. He is supposed to vie with Lanfear for second strongest Chosen, yet he languishes ten points below her, with Ishamael below Rand when the evidence indicates they should be equal. The evidence says they should be somewhere, you place them somewhere else. This is not just wild guessing, possibly wrong, this is you refusing to alter placements even when evidence has been provided that those placements are wrong, because you don't like them. This can't be considered merely speculating for fun, this is you putting people where you want them, without regard for where RJ might have wanted them, and where the evidence says they should be.

 

And what marks of "stupidity" have Mr Ares shown in this thread? You say it is ludicrous to say that Aes Sedai strength is 50% of Lanfear's (which Aes Sedai strength? Average? Minimum? Maximum? All?), but you cannot say why it is ludicrous.

Have you forgotten already that it was the mean of all Aes Sedai that was mentioned as being 50% of Lanfear's strength? And yes, it is indeed ludicrous.

You saying it is ludicrous is not and never has been enough. Are you so slow to grasp this point? All you can do is say that it is ludicrous, but you cannot put forward a decent argument as to why.

 

Furthermore, it was not even my argument. I do not have to support it, nor do I have to object to it. If you want Luckers to show you his working, I'm sure he can. In fact, I've seen this argued many times before. If you want him to support his point, ask him. But it is not my point, and me neither supporting nor contradicting it cannot be taken as idiocy by any reasonable person.

You and Luckers had a common cause, working against "my scale" from early on. You went after all my statements with great effort. You even commented on Ndshacker talking about his teacher (not Luckers), while the discussion went along the lines of that "50% of Lanfear's strength". If all my arguments are damned beyond redemption in your eyes, then surely you should have wasted more effort on Luckers' ideas - because they were way, way more wrong than any of those of mine that you have attacked so far. But you didn't. So my conclusion is that you must have thought that he could have known that. Otherwise you would have said the same thing to him as you said to me:..."we can't know".

Luckers' theory is "way, way more wrong" than yours? Says who? Now, you still cannot say why it is idocy for me to maintain a stance of neutrality towards someone elses theory while I am debating with you. If you want to debate his theory, go ahead. If you want me to debate his theory, no. I will debate with who I choose to debate with, when I choose to debate with them. And Luckers no doubt has a comprehensive theory with lots of references and numbers and quotes and maths, and if asked he might find the time to share it, bit I'm not all that bothered. I don't really want to argue that particular point. If you want to, go ahead, but it's not idiocy or stupidity for me to not be all that bothered.

 

You say it is idiotic to suggest the Chosen can cut any flow, but why is it idiotic? We've been over this several times, and you can put forward any reason why they shouldn't be able to, nor can you put forward any reasonable place to put the line, if it does exist, that is not just randomly stuck wherever you fancied sticking it. The only reason you can put forward for it being idiotic amounts to it being idiotic because you say it is, which is no reason at all. All the evidence you put forward to support was shown to not support you at all. So, not idiotic, so much as fairly reasonable.

Yes, we've been over this. And your arguments are still among the most idiotic things I've ever seen.

So it's idiotic to put forward arguments that your opponent cannot counter? To disprove his points at every opportunity? To make a point and claim it as a victory when no-one else actually understands how it constitutes a victory, and then tell them to read your point again as if this will make your obscure point somehow clear, when there is just nothing there to indicate how this could possibly be seen to constitute you winning the argument is more sensible? Oh, now I know where I was going wrong! I should just spout rubbish. I'm a teapot! That means your scale must be wrong! The logic is all there, my reasoning is impeccable, if you do not understand how me being a teapot could possibly mean your scale is a made up theory with no relation whatsoever to the facts, then I fail to see how I could make it any clearer.

 

I'm going through a rather messy breakup.

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Mean Aes Sedai strength should be at about 15-20% of Rand's strength.  When we say that 63.2% of the population can be Aes Sedai, we mean that 63.2% of the population is above a certain strength (Which I think to be about 8-12% of Rand's strength)