General Predictions 3rd age

[Ndshacker]

If he was forced I don't think he would stand high enough to say, "Let the lord of Chaos Rule'

[erickm001]

[quote Have you guys not read the last three books?  Taim is a darkfriend - associating with known darkfriends, ordering them to kill Rand, etc.

 

We've yet to hear Tiam's side of the story as to his ordering Rand killed and his darkfriend associations. To me, Tiam is too obvious a dark-friend. It doesn't smell right. I think there could be some suprises here in AMOL.

 

I'm on my 4th read though of the entire series, currently on Winter's Heart. I'll read very carefully when Rand has his duels with the bad Ashaman and see if I can pick out some other clues....

[Jethro]

We had a Kisman PoV at Far Madding after he confronted Rand. He commented in his thoughts that the M'Hael aka Taim ordered him to kill Rand, so did Demandred, and Moridin said do it if he had to. I doubt he would have thought of the three in the same matter-of-fact way if Taim wasnt a Darkfriend. Kisman would surely have thought something like "Demandred ordered him to kill al'Thor, and even Moridin said to do so if necessary, but the M'Hael?" Remember, Taims outward apearance is one of fealty to Rand, and if Taim wasnt a Darkfriend Kisman would definitely have been surprised to see someone is such a high position of trust order an attack on Rand himself. If Taim wasnt of the same allegiances as Moridin and Demandred,Kisman would have noted so at that very time.

 

That aside, there is of course the inevitable "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" slipped in there in by Taim at the end of book 11. There is no way Taim would have said that. Granted its an old saying, but we havent seen anyone use it like that until Taim, and there are way too many other clues as to him being a Darkfriend to dismiss that one, especially going off Taims "favorite" Ashaman laughing their heads off when he said it.

[Luckers]

Actually while bridgette says Cain is always older, Min's viewings show that in the future at least that Cain can be younger as well.

 

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

Well, not nessasarily. Consider, first of all that Min did not know Birgitte was Silverbow. She directly links those visions to the current incarnation--Trahelion. With that in mind, consider her language.

 

Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

The strangeness is directly linked to the man being older than Birgitte, and younger--in that progression. Older, then younger. You will also note that she never differentiates from the current Birgitte.

 

As such, the Min;s strangeness is explained. She is seeing men in the future of the current Birgitte seemingly reverse in ageing. She does not know that Birgitte is Birgitte Silverbow, bound to live many lives. She sees her future, and progressionally she sees men who are older, and then men who are younger being the same man.

 

In any case, the books state...

 

[birgitte] was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but always after.

 

[tFoH - Meetings - 241]

 

The culmination--especially when added to the fact that Min did not know Birgitte was Silverbow, suggest Min was linking these future events to current Birgitte, and was therefore not implying anything about the respective future ages of Birgitte/Gaidal incarnations.

 

On the issue of Birgitte and Gaidal, it's been explicitly stated in the books that throughout their reincarnations, there has been many times when Gaidal was far younger than Birgitte.

 

That's actually quite untrue. In point of fact it is directly stated to be the exact opposite--as i cited above.

 

The only issue in my mind is if he joined the shadow freely or if he was forced by 13 BA and myrandraal. I would bet at least one channeler we know was converted, and so far we aren't sure who. It was brought up multiple times, so it would be kind of odd if it wasn't used.

 

Sheriam seems the viable options--Taim seems unlikely. His comments about training other men as well as his exact knowledge of the dangers of training men (he claims to have only trained five, cites all five lived, and all remained capable of channeling--though some did not go forth with it--yet also tells Rand that if the flame created to test a man who can channel is too strong it can burn out or kill the man in the resonance) all suggest to me that he was a willing participant, a darkfriend originally recruited and trained to train dreadlords by Ishamael. Why would you have a turned individual do that?

 

 

[Jethro]

Taim also takes too much pleasure in working against Aes Sedai, I believe Taim went over for his own reasons. Whether or not it was for protection from te Taint or some personal revenge against Aes Sedai is yet to be found out, but I reckon he was a Darkfriend and channeling long before Eye of the World; RJ confirmed that men slow later than women and that Taim has indeed slowed, so Taims channeling experience is not only knowing various weaves but also channeling for some time, at least a few years longer than Rand

[Fryn]

Actually while bridgette says Cain is always older, Min's viewings show that in the future at least that Cain can be younger as well.

 

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

Well, not nessasarily. Consider, first of all that Min did not know Birgitte was Silverbow. She directly links those visions to the current incarnation--Trahelion. With that in mind, consider her language.

 

Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

The strangeness is directly linked to the man being older than Birgitte, and younger--in that progression. Older, then younger. You will also note that she never differentiates from the current Birgitte.

 

As such, the Min;s strangeness is explained. She is seeing men in the future of the current Birgitte seemingly reverse in ageing. She does not know that Birgitte is Birgitte Silverbow, bound to live many lives. She sees her future, and progressionally she sees men who are older, and then men who are younger being the same man.

 

 

Actually

"You're Birgitte Silverbow!" min breathed. She had been sure even before Aviendha said the name... "I saw you at Falme!"

...

This was Birgitte Silverbow, hero of a hundred legends? The woman was foulmouthed! And what did she mean, Silverbow was dead? The woman was standing right infront of her! Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated moreadventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. [insert quote above about cain].

 

It is actually Min that gives brigette hope that she would still find cain even if he was younger than her. If you recall she was freaking out that they would be split forever because of what Modg had done. But yes based on the order of the text Min knows it is Silverbow before thinking about cain being linked (note she had her initial viewing before this point). I don't have the quote mind you, but I am pretty sure brigette refers to it later in converstaion with Elayne. You could say I spent extra attention to all of the fortellings, dreams, prophecies, and viewings because I love that aspect of the series.

 

The way the quote is written though to me reads that either she is much younger, or she is much older. I know what Bridgette says about always being younger, but Min's viewings disagree, and they are always right.

 

This was one of my basis for their being some turnings where things are slightly diffferent than other turnings, aka a balancing of a pattern that has slowly gone wrong. The idea was based on the fact that heroes eventually forget their past lives. Min states that there are visions where she is obviously older than Cain as well,where, based on earlier text of remembered lives, was supposed to be wrong. Basically on balance turnings Modg would knock Bridgette out of TAR and she would go from being older to younger from that point on, or vise versa.

[Luckers]

Good point, sorry i apologise its been a while since i read WH...

 

Still, whilst there is room for wiggling i prefer to fit facts so they don't contradict one another. Even knowing birgitte is Silverbow, those visions may well link to the current Birgitte--Min is never wrong, its true, but Min does not say that she sees various men linked to various Birgittes--she says that she sees various men linked to 'her'. Singular.

 

Why, if she sees Gaidal in plural does she miss the plural Birgitte's.

 

She directly states that the strangeness flows from Gaidal's disparate ages. What need do we have to imply that Min's vision contradicts ages of set behaviour for those two.

 

The way the quote is written though to me reads that either she is much younger, or she is much older. I know what Bridgette says about always being younger, but Min's viewings disagree, and they are always right.

 

This was one of my basis for their being some turnings where things are slightly diffferent than other turnings, aka a balancing of a pattern that has slowly gone wrong. The idea was based on the fact that heroes eventually forget their past lives. Min states that there are visions where she is obviously older than Cain as well,where, based on earlier text of remembered lives, was supposed to be wrong. Basically on balance turnings Modg would knock Bridgette out of TAR and she would go from being older to younger from that point on, or vise versa.

 

Thats my point though--is the 'she' the Birgitte existing at the same time as the Gaidal, or is she the Birgitte existing in Min's time.

 

The fact that Min sees the multiple Gaidals and then links them to the single Birgitte suggests to me that it is the singular--indeed we don't know that Min sees anything of Birgitte--she sees Gaidal's, the focus was on the Gaidal's, they were what her vision was of. Min many times described her visions around people in such a way without the individual being any part of the vision.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Granted its an old saying, but we havent seen anyone use it like that until Taim

Is it? Pevara didn't recall ever hearing it before. We have only ever heard it used by the Shadow. What evidence do we have that it was an old saying?

 

Gaidal Cain reborn cannot be either of Elayne's babies. He is both older & younger than Birgitte. Older in the sense that he came out first; younger in the sense that he came out as a baby and Birgitte as an adult. Birgitte's age to me seems uncertain' date=' but I am certain it is some adult age.[/quote']What? There is nothing in Min's Viewing that necessarily means this is true: "Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man." The man is sometimes older, sometimes younger. Nothing to say he must be both at once. What rules out Elayne's babies as GC?

[Thor]

If you can't understand that it is explicitly said that (in that very passage that has been quoted so many times now regarding Min's viewings) throughout their incarnations Gaidal has many times been younger than Birgitte, then I feel sorry for your lack of understanding and everyone around you who has ever tried to drop you any hints.

[Mr Ares]

If you can't understand that it is explicitly said that (in that very passage that has been quoted so many times now regarding Min's viewings) throughout their incarnations Gaidal has many times been younger than Birgitte, then I feel sorry for your lack of understanding and everyone around you who has ever tried to drop you any hints.

What? What the hell are you drivelling about? What the hell does this have to do with Elayne's babies, and why they can't be Cain? What the hell does this have to do with anything? Just what? Before this, Birgitte has always been younger than Gaidal. Now, Min has viewings of him as sometimes older, sometimes younger. But what does this have to do with anything?

[helmethero]

I think they can't be Cain mostly because they're name is most likely to be Trakand, or possibly al'Thor.

[Thor]

If you can't understand that it is explicitly said that (in that very passage that has been quoted so many times now regarding Min's viewings) throughout their incarnations Gaidal has many times been younger than Birgitte, then I feel sorry for your lack of understanding and everyone around you who has ever tried to drop you any hints.

What? What the hell are you drivelling about? What the hell does this have to do with Elayne's babies, and why they can't be Cain? What the hell does this have to do with anything? Just what? Before this, Birgitte has always been younger than Gaidal. Now, Min has viewings of him as sometimes older, sometimes younger. But what does this have to do with anything?

 

Driveling? Be areful when pointing fingers.

 

Show me a passage of where it says "Birgitte was always younger than Gaidal" from the books.

Else shuf what you wrote back up your keyboard.

 

And where did I say it has anything to do with anybody's baby?

[Luckers]

First of all, Thor and Ares you both need to calm down.

 

Show me a passage of where it says "Birgitte was always younger than Gaidal" from the books.

 

I've actually alread quoted it in this thread, but here it is again.

 

"Is Gaidal about?" Nynaeve asked. He was usually close' by Birgitte, and he made Nynaeve nervous, refusing to acknowledge her existence, scowling when Birgitte spoke to her. It had been something of a shock at

first to find Gaidal Cain and Birgitte.-long-dead heroes linked in so many stories and legends-in Tel'aran 'rhiod. But, as Birgitte herself had said, where better for heroes bound to the Wheel of Time to await rebirth than in a dream? A dream that had existed as long as the Wheel. It was they, Birgitte and Gaidal Cain and Rogosh Eagleeye and Artur Hawkwing and all the others, that the Horn of Valere would summon back to fight at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Birgitte's braid swung as she shook her head. "I have not seen him for some time. I think the Wheel has spun him out again. It always happens so." Expectation and concern both touched her voice. If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with no knowledge of who he was, yet destined for adventures thai would make new legends. The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape thc Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wail again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel, New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.

 

"How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. "Years yet, surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after. '

 

[tFoH - 14 - Meetings]

 

She also, i believe, cites it when she first meets Nynaeve, but i do not have my copy of tSR on me.

 

I think they can't be Cain mostly because they're name is most likely to be Trakand, or possibly al'Thor.

 

The Heroes do not always--or even often--bear the names they are remembered with--this is stated many many times, starting first with the very sounding of the Horn where Rand senses many names to the faces. Birgitte, when she lived during the War of the Shadow was named Taedra. Those names are merely the most remembered.

 

That being said Elayne's son cannot be Cain--time flows differently between TAR and the real world, but we have points of connection, and Cain was spun out long before Elayne became pregnant--with corresponding check in points between TAR time and real world time.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Thor, in future, please make it clearer who you are addressing. It makes it easier on everyone.

 

That being said Elayne's son cannot be Cain--time flows differently between TAR and the real world, but we have points of connection, and Cain was spun out long before Elayne became pregnant--with corresponding check in points between TAR time and real world time.

That's the good reason I was waiting for. Excellent.

[Luckers]

Ares, I specifically asked you to cool it--can't it be enough that I showed he was wrong without the need to rub it in? Did the smugness help anyone?

 

Come on guys--im as given to being snappish as anyone, but the board has had an unpleasent tone lately, so lets all shape up.

 

Ares, editing your comments would be a start. It's like Faile and Berelain--he got proven wrong, you lose your knives...

 

Which would make me Rhuarc. Awesome.

[Mr Ares]

Did the smugness help anyone?

I wasn't aware I was being smug. Or that I wasn't calm. No offence was intended. Sometimes it's hard to know how people take these things.

Which would make me Rhuarc. Awesome.

I really didn't see you as the type to settle down with two wives...

[Luckers]

Yes, the fact that they arn't men is a problem--though then again... two wives? Somebodies overcompensating.

 

And you were a little bit smug. Come on, you know it *wink*. Thanks for editing though. I'm the first to admit I get snarky too--but i think its good we're all trying to get better about it. For a better board, eh? Thor, you in?

 

 

[pxnsolid]

I wasn't aware I was being smug. Or that I wasn't calm. No offence was intended. Sometimes it's hard to know how people take these things.

 

Thats the problem with the nature of things like forum posts and text messages. While written word can convey emotion quite well, obviously, the format in these settings isnt really set up for alot of emotion, which has alot to do with how statements are understood. If the proper emotion isnt conveyed then the meaning can be totally lost.

[Luckers]

Very true. I wonder if being obnoxiously nice would help, or just make us all sick. Lol.

[Thor]

"I have not seen him for some time. I think the Wheel has spun him out again. It always happens so."

 

So you are making an inference from that and thinks that she means that Gaidal has always been spun out before her.

 

I disagree with your interpretation.  Nowhere in her statement does she say that he is always spun out before her.  The fact that she knows he gets spun out doesn't mean anything.

 

If by what you are saying, then Gaidal should never know that Birgitte would get spun out since she would always be spun out after him.  But you know very well that Gaidal must know about it.

 

Min's viewing is the most concrete proof that there is no order to which they get spun out.

[Jethro]

With all due respect Thor, I am looking at the bit where Birgitte writes off your question-the last part of Luckers quote, its higlighted in bold. You could always have a look in the book to double check the exact wording.

 

I think some things like the TAR timewarp/however you want to put it do get a bit confusing sometimes, but I get it. If Birgitte hadnt been ripped out of TAR and both her and Gaidal had been spun out at the same time, it doesnt mean they would be born at the same time. In other words, they could both vanish from TAR in the same instant but be born ten years apart, and even if Gaidal went first he COULD end up being born after...only with this specific guy does it happen the same way round every time

[Luckers]

Indeed, here is again.

 

She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after. 

 

If by what you are saying, then Gaidal should never know that Birgitte would get spun out since she would always be spun out after him.  But you know very well that Gaidal must know about it.

 

Why should I know that? Gaidal should never know that birgitte would be spun out--he is ALWAYS spun out first.

 

[Thor]

With all due respect Thor, I am looking at the bit where Birgitte writes off your question-the last part of Luckers quote, its higlighted in bold. You could always have a look in the book to double check the exact wording.

 

I think some things like the TAR timewarp/however you want to put it do get a bit confusing sometimes, but I get it. If Birgitte hadnt been ripped out of TAR and both her and Gaidal had been spun out at the same time, it doesnt mean they would be born at the same time. In other words, they could both vanish from TAR in the same instant but be born ten years apart, and even if Gaidal went first he COULD end up being born after...only with this specific guy does it happen the same way round every time

 

No idea how I missed that tbh, not just in the books (which should have sent off an alarm bell of inconsistency with Min's viewing) and also in his quote.

[Mr Ares]

Yes, the fact that they arn't men is a problem--though then again... two wives? Somebodies overcompensating.

So you're not planning on getting two husbands?

 

Very true. I wonder if being obnoxiously nice would help, or just make us all sick. Lol.

Sick. Definitely sick.

 

Min's viewing is the most concrete proof that there is no order to which they get spun out.

Not so. Min's viewing's relate to the future. It could be that until now, it has always be one way, but now it will be the other, or vary.