my theory on taim

[infamous]

This is my first topic. Sorry if you guys are tired of this discussion. Dont know if I had to make a topic out of this. But I think Taim is a forsaken.I think he is moridin.I dont have conclusive evidence and some of it might be wrong.I would like to see what you guys think though. Here are my reasons.

 

1.Asmodean was killed around the same time Taim appeared to rand around the same place. He mustve had a hand in that. IT said death took him. Moridin named himself death.

 

2.How did he get the seal on the drak ones prison. I think he lied.

 

3. Lews Therin shouts at Rand telling him to kill him just like Osangar, another forsaken.I think Jordan does this for a reason.

 

4.Moridin is named naeblis so he must have done some stuff to impress the dark one like...getting on rand's side (taim)secretly and raising an army of men who can channel putting him in great power. Greater power than any of the other foraken have. I don't think he has been behind the scenes doing nothing that we know of.

 

5. If he is who he says he is how did he hold off madness so long?

 

6. How did he escape the Aes Sedai?

 

7. Perrin senses that taim hates rand as much as rand hates him. He has a forsaken isn his ranks. He acts weird when Rand chooses Osangar to accompany him. Why would he be irritated? Maybe he had other plans for Osangar. He never acts nervous around Rand also. And changes his emotions fast. Like when he gets mad then acts nice.

 

8. Min sys he has a bloody past and a bloody future or something. I take this like he has died before and will die again.

 

9. "Let the lord of chaos rule." Only a forsaken can knows that. I doubt the foraken specifically told one of their servants that exact phrase.

 

10. This is a small reason but he names himself the m'hael. So he knows the old tongue.

 

11. He commands the asha'man to kill Rand.

 

12. In Moridin's POV it suggests some stuff. "On The Board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al'Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon now. ...It was very hard to lose a game when you play both sides of the board." I know that doesn't mean he is Taim though.

 

One of the things that ruins all this is when after dumai's wells Demandred goes to the dark one and he is pleased with him. And was mazrim around when ishmael died.

[Guest cwestervelt]

He's just a jealous guy that is obsessed with personal power.

 

People just love to hate Taim. It's so blatently obvious that he has to be a Darkfriend isn't it. Anything in The Wheel of Time that is that obvious, but never confirmed with a PoV, makes me suspicious.

 

Taim is obsessed with his own personal power, but I will be very surprised if he actually turns out to be black. He so obsessed with himself that he is easily used and manipulated by those that are Black. He is what Elaida would be if she were a man.

[Luckers]

I put another forsaken, because i believe that Taim, as a third age man, has been raised to the level of Forsaken.

[Guest Majsju]

I've said this before, but I can say it again.

 

I think Taim is Demandred. Ok, not in the sense that Demandred is posing as taim, that theory is dead.

 

But if you look at the similarities, Both Taim and Demandred stand just slightly weaker than Rand/LTT. Both were granted a position of power jus slightly below Rand/LTT. Both are very arrogant, and hungry for more power. Just look at Taim when he first joins Rand, he actually sugests that they should stand as equals.

 

Now, we know that Demandred couldn't stand being second to LTT, so he joined the shadow out of jealousy. Taim seems to have the personality to do the exact same thing, it's quite obvious he is not satisfied with being sent away from rand to train asha'man, instead of earning himself glory.

 

That's where he decides to join the shadow, he thinks he can get the glory he deserves there.

[Kadere]

I think Luckers idea is a very reasonable idea. I'd even like to see it pan out that way. I put that he's a darkfriend under a Forsaken. He's a very POWERFUL darkfriend, but I'm not sure he's been raised to the level of Forsaken yet.

 

As for him being Moridin. First off, Taim didn't kill Asmodean. He wasn't even in Caemlyn at the time. RJ has stated that the first time Taim entered Caemlyn was the day he met with Rand at the beginning of LoC.

 

Second, Taim has been around since the beginning. He was there when Rand faced Ishaemel at Falme. Moridin wasn't reborn until well into LoC or early in ACoS (by all logical time reasoning). Unless Moridin hunted Taim down, killed him, and took his place (which is possible) I don't buy it.

 

Plus I'm guessing you've read KoD, but in case there are people out there who haven't.

 

**********KOD SPOILER*********

 

In Knife of Dreams Rand sees a face while he's getting sick from using the power. The face he sees is the same face he saw at Shadar Logoth, from the Wanderer. This is the face of Moridin, just as the Wanderer was Moridin. At neither points does he recognize, or even hint any recognition of Taim.

 

So I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to be the same person, with a little illusion anything can happen, but I find it highly unlikely.

[infamous]

yeah taim was around when rand fought ishmael. I wasn't sure though. I also was reading the prologue to Path of Daggers. Spoilers.

 

 

 

In Moridin's POV it suggests some stuff. "On The Board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al'Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon now. ...It was very hard to lose a game when you play both sides of the board." I know that doesn't mean he is Taim though. Just throwing out a wild guess. I think its wrong now.

[Luckers]

He's a very POWERFUL darkfriend, but I'm not sure he's been raised to the level of Forsaken yet.

 

Kadere, i think most the evidence for the fact that Taim is or has been raised to the level of Forsaken is in the actions of the mysterious Sammael impersonater, therefore i think it will turn out to be either that he is already Forsaken, or that he is not and never will be. But you never know, so meh...

[Guest Egwene]

I am with Majsju... ok, RJ I believe said somewhere that Taim does not pose as Demandred...

 

 

...I believe that Taim IS Demandred... and always has been. Thus no posing...

 

The similarities are just too striking. And LT's reaction to Taim has been from the start extraordinary. It seemed to me to be based on recognition...

[Luckers]

I don't see it... it would be too crass for RJ. It would be like some asking "Is the sky blue?" and someone else saying "No" because it only LOOKS blue. Pure semantics.

[Inara]

a dreadlord perhaps, but not a forsaken-yet

i think taim is a baaad man,but not as bad as he thinks he is, imo, he is going to do something so very very bad at TG and get raised to demandreds position.

i agree with maj, taim is the third age equivilent of the big D and the pattern is manuvering him into that position....this means demandred has to die, forever....and taim will be locked up with the others until the next time the dragon is born

[Luckers]

i think he's done some pretty impressive works on behalf of the DO--as i said to kadere, if he hasn't done enough to have been raised already, then he never will be.

[Inara]

the DO is a demanding SOB, maybe hes waiting to see if he survives TG.

[Guest Majsju]

I am with Majsju... ok' date=' RJ I believe said somewhere that Taim does not pose as Demandred...

 

 

...I believe that Taim IS Demandred... and always has been. Thus no posing...

 

The similarities are just too striking. And LT's reaction to Taim has been from the start extraordinary. It seemed to me to be based on recognition...[/quote']

 

That is SO not what I meant. I don't believe for a moment that Taim and Demandred would be the same person, what I do mean is that Taim is to Rand what Demandred was to LTT, the powerful 2nd in command who turns coat because of jealousy.

 

Two different people, doing the same thing.

Which may mean that Taim is not a DF at all, rather just following his own agenda, perhaps planning to take out Rand and go for the glory himself.

[Luckers]

I don't disagree that they fulfill the same role, but i dont see RJ making them be exactly the same figures every step of the way... it would be bad writing. So yes a relaxed correlation can be acknowledged, and basic ideas about Taims character can be drawn... but the rest... i just dont see it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I am with Majsju... ok' date=' RJ I believe said somewhere that Taim does not pose as Demandred...

 

 

...I believe that Taim IS Demandred... and always has been. Thus no posing...

 

The similarities are just too striking. And LT's reaction to Taim has been from the start extraordinary. It seemed to me to be based on recognition...[/quote']

 

That is SO not what I meant. I don't believe for a moment that Taim and Demandred would be the same person, what I do mean is that Taim is to Rand what Demandred was to LTT, the powerful 2nd in command who turns coat because of jealousy.

 

Two different people, doing the same thing.

Which may mean that Taim is not a DF at all, rather just following his own agenda, perhaps planning to take out Rand and go for the glory himself.

 

I've said some of the same thing in the "End of KoD... Question" thread. Is there any way to merge the two threads so that we don't need to continue this discussion in two places?

 

Even if it was Taim that gave the orders' date=' wanting Rand dead fits with the power mad personna I see him displaying without making Taim Black. To Taim, having Rand out of the way would allow Taim to try replacing Rand as the Dragon Reborn making himself the Savior of Humanity. After all, how could Rand have been the Dragon Reborn if he couldn't even survive until the Last Battle? Taim on the otherhand, why even the Aes Sedai coulnd't manage to hold him captive. A little twisting of the truth, but hey to quote Taim, "Victors write history." A lot of people don't seem to know the name Rand al'Thor. They do know the name Mazrim Taim, that he claimed to be the Dragon Reborn, and that Stone of Tear fell.[/quote']

 

He's also a Black Tower parallel of Elaida. His personallity makes him easy to manipulate. If it weren't for Elaida's and Alviarin's PoVs a lot of people would consider Elaida to be Black for the similar reasons as they do Taim.

[Guest Majsju]

 

I've said some of the same thing in the "End of KoD... Question" thread. Is there any way to merge the two threads so that we don't need to continue this discussion in two places?

 

That sounds suspiciously much like work...

 

But no, there is no such function. The closest would be to lock one thread, and put in a link refering to the other.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I figured it was just wishful thinking...

[Llewin]

I am with Majsju... ok' date=' RJ I believe said somewhere that Taim does not pose as Demandred...

 

 

...I believe that Taim IS Demandred... and always has been. Thus no posing...

 

The similarities are just too striking. And LT's reaction to Taim has been from the start extraordinary. It seemed to me to be based on recognition...[/quote']

 

Here's my main issue with this idea... Unless "Taim" has a different face thatn Demandred because of an illusion, it doesnt fly. Every forsaken we've come across since LTT has really become part of Rand's life on a regular basis Rand and/or LTT in his head has recognized them as soon as they saw the real face of the person... Rand would recognize Demandred...he would have to! He knew Semirhage IMMEDIATELY...

[Kadere]

Yeah, that's always been a problem for me too. Though LTT has told Rand to kill Taim just about everytime he sees him.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Lews Therin wanted Rand to kill almost all of the Asha'man, not just Taim. If I remember right, he kept wanting Rand to kill half the Aes Sedai he met too.

[Graendals favourite]

I obviously think Graendal was behind Taim :) . Well, at least after Ishamael's demise in tDR. Think he was seized by Graendal from the Aes Sedai, if not Ishamael involvement earlier then Asmodean trained him, sent to attach himself to Rand, commanded to save Rand from Sammael, then given to Moridin at the PoD Graendal-Moridin alliance.

[Luckers]

You think Graendals behind everything. But thats ok, she is the coolest Forsaken.

 

cwestervelt wrote:

Even if it was Taim that gave the orders, wanting Rand dead fits with the power mad personna I see him displaying without making Taim Black. To Taim, having Rand out of the way would allow Taim to try replacing Rand as the Dragon Reborn making himself the Savior of Humanity. After all, how could Rand have been the Dragon Reborn if he couldn't even survive until the Last Battle? Taim on the otherhand, why even the Aes Sedai coulnd't manage to hold him captive. A little twisting of the truth, but hey to quote Taim, "Victors write history." A lot of people don't seem to know the name Rand al'Thor. They do know the name Mazrim Taim, that he claimed to be the Dragon Reborn, and that Stone of Tear fell.

 

Were you refering to the KoD attack or the PoD attack with this. If it's the PoD attack, yes i see where you are coming from, though i suspect this reasoning would work wether or not Taim was a darkfriend... for the KoD theres the fact that whoever instigated it would need to be a darkfriend because of the Chosen Mark.

 

He's also a Black Tower parallel of Elaida. His personallity makes him easy to manipulate. If it weren't for Elaida's and Alviarin's PoVs a lot of people would consider Elaida to be Black for the similar reasons as they do Taim.

 

I don't agree with part of this. Taim is impulsive and blunt in his actions, but he's relatively stable as a person. Elaide began as a posturing fool and is now dissolving into something even worse. Hers makes her easy to manipulate, but i dont think his does. Not in any extreme way. As for the rest, you're likely right, we would have thought Elaida black--but as i said Taim is not Elaida.

 

Every forsaken we've come across since LTT has really become part of Rand's life on a regular basis

 

This is a good point... though, to be fair, Rand chose Dashiva, not the other way round. Before then and without that Osen'gar likely wouldn't have come near Rand for quite some time.

[infamous]

lol i had a really convincing argument.

[AcE]

First post ever!

 

gggooo me!

 

*cough* 'cuse me, getting excited, on to my post...

 

As i'm relatively new to WoT i am, by extention, new to Dragonmount, so if the following has been suggested before then i apologize..

 

 

I've been thinking for a while now that Taim is Sammael.

I have no way to prove or disprove this lets just call it a gut feeling, one that, for me, some things in CoD confirmed in my mind...

 

Firstly Mordin mentions that Sammel "is back", he gave Trollocs orders, the ones that attacked Rand i guess

(yeah, theres the possibility of someone using Illusion, but i just don't buy it)

 

It was the end of CoD that confirmed it for me

 

"let the Lord of Chaos rule"...

 

How can any but a Forsaken know of the DO's exact orders?

 

I think, due to the crossing of the Balefires Rand missed his target

 

ok, so, go easy on me, i'm new :oops:

 

Anyone agree (or disagree)?

 

(if this has been suggested before, could someone link it? i've not been able to find any discussion about a possible Taim/Sammel thing)

 

*edited for spelling*

[Luckers]

Hey and Welcome!

 

You have a nice theory and all that, but the simple problem being that RJ has confirmed that Sammael is indeed very dead.

 

Additionally, the crossed balefire stream was before the confrontation with Sammael, and in that fight balefire never went near sammael, but near Liah. Moreover Sammael was consumed by Mashadar, causing his ultimate death.