End of KoD... question

[Prempt]

Sorry if this has been asked but I just finished PoD and at the end when the six Reds arrive to ask Taim about bonding Ashaman he says "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". I remember this being said to the Forsaken by the DO I think, but was it ever made public? How did Taim come to learn of this saying?

[Kadere]

That's the question. We don't know. Either he is a Forsaken, he's close to the Forsaken, or he's being controled by the Forsaken. We don't know. That's why it was such an awesome ending.

[Prempt]

Well that's what I was confused about, I just couldn't remember if "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" was an order by the DO and also just a saying in Randland among the people. So obviously he is tied to the Forsaken/DO if not one himself. Thanks Kadere.

[Inara]

also it is a child's nursery rhyme

 

the lions sing and the hills take flight

the moon by day and the sun by night

blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool

let the lord of chaos rule

 

front of LOC

(although it IS from the fourth age)

so i dunno...these things tend to stick around, like ring-a ring-a rosy.

[Guest cwestervelt]

In addition to the childs rhyme, it is a regional colloquialism. It isn't surprising that one person would recognize it and consider it an old saying while someone else wouldn't.

 

From the BWB, page 290:

 

The Feast of Fools

... In man villages and towns the most foolish person is given a title such as the Lord/Lady of Unreason/Misrule/Chaos or the King/Queen of Fools. Not an honor sought...

 

My opinion of that last part is that the real Darkfriends that are manipulating Taim are laughing because Taim made himself the unknowing target of his own joke. Taim, like Elaida in the White Tower, is a Lord of Chaos. (Well, Lady of Chaos in her instance.)

[Kadere]

Except the children's game doesn't exist until the Fourth Age. Plus RJ isn't the type of author to have a character say something which has such obvious context, when the characters background does nothing but support that context, on top of tall the color schemes and hands holding lightning to back it up, only to then say "Haha! Got you, it was actually a bunch of low life darkfriends making this INSANELY powerful character dance like a puppet." Sorry, I just don't buy Taim being the poor kid who got mixed up in the wrong crowd.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The kid who got mixed up in the wrong crowd isn't an applicable analogy and that is not what I am saying Taim is. The kid in the wrong crowd analogy implies the person ended up in trouble because of the people around him. What I see with Taim is the people around him are there because of the trouble Taim is causing. His power hunger and obsession blinds him to the fact he is the one being used, and not the other way around. That is why I see his saying "Let the Lord of Chaos" rule as a joke at his own expense. He is the "town fool" who is put in the position of a figurehead leader.

[Kadere]

But Taim is just not a fool. We have a couple of asha'men POVs where it's pretty clear that Taim is in control to a large extent. He's the one ordering them to kill Rand (along with Demandred and Moridin), there's nothing to even hint at the idea that asha'men are telling him what to do. Heck, he even had Osan'gar on a tight leash. I'm not saying he's not after his own ambitions. He's a baddy. Most likely a BIG baddy.

[Trib4l]

I would venture to guess that Dashiva was there by his own accord in hopes to get close to Rand and kill him. I doubt that he would have subjected himself to Taim without good cause, and something tells me that Taim himself was not cause enough.

 

I feel that Taim is simply a pawn of Moridin, as evidenced by his choice in colors, not realizing his status as puppet. Near as I can tell he's just someone's lacky, just carrying out orders that he's been given. His connection to one of the Forsaken, and obviously the DO, would explain his lack of insanity considering his age and duration of channeling.

[Guest cwestervelt]

But Taim is just not a fool. We have a couple of asha'men POVs where it's pretty clear that Taim is in control to a large extent. He's the one ordering them to kill Rand (along with Demandred and Moridin)' date=' there's nothing to even hint at the idea that asha'men are telling him what to do. Heck, he even had Osan'gar on a tight leash. I'm not saying he's not after his own ambitions. He's a baddy. Most likely a BIG baddy.[/quote']

 

The PoV you refer to would be either Kisman's or Torval's (Rochaid's maybe )while they were in Far Madding. Sure, Taim told them to kill Rand but that doesn't really tell us anything about Taim. That PoV also tells us that Kisman, Torval and co. were taking orders directly from Demandred and Moridin too. Additionally, it was Dashiva (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 Week 21 Question) that instigated the attack on Rand in Cairhien. Kisman and Torval may only have thought it was Taim that gave the order.

 

Even if it was Taim that gave the orders, wanting Rand dead fits with the power mad personna I see him displaying without making Taim Black. To Taim, having Rand out of the way would allow Taim to try replacing Rand as the Dragon Reborn making himself the Savior of Humanity. After all, how could Rand have been the Dragon Reborn if he couldn't even survive until the Last Battle? Taim on the otherhand, why even the Aes Sedai coulnd't manage to hold him captive. A little twisting of the truth, but hey to quote Taim, "Victors write history." A lot of people don't seem to know the name Rand al'Thor. They do know the name Mazrim Taim, that he claimed to be the Dragon Reborn, and that Stone of Tear fell.

 

It would take an utter fool to think it would work and take the chance, but that is what I see Taim as being. Someone who is foolish enough to not realize why those surrounding him think it hilarious when he says "let the lord of chaos rule."

[Guest cwestervelt]

I would venture to guess that Dashiva was there by his own accord in hopes to get close to Rand and kill him. I doubt that he would have subjected himself to Taim without good cause' date=' and something tells me that Taim himself was not cause enough.

 

I feel that Taim is simply a pawn of Moridin, as evidenced by his choice in colors, not realizing his status as puppet. Near as I can tell he's just someone's lacky, just carrying out orders that he's been given. His connection to one of the Forsaken, and obviously the DO, would explain his lack of insanity considering his age and duration of channeling.[/quote']

 

Rand thinks Taim is around 35. Rand is wrong.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=150

For Linda Sedai' date=' Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted -- along with other reasons -- and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.[/quote']

 

Age doesn't prove anything. We are told that some can hold the madness at bay for years and others go mad at the first touching of the source. Thom's nephew held it off from 2 to 3 years before the Aes Sedai found him. By your reasoning, Logain also myst be black. After all, he has held onto sanity for 6 years according to Chapter 52 of Lord of Chaos. He was born in 972, about 3 years prior to the start of the Aiel war and would have been 25 when he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn in 997. You also have to question whether Taim really is sane. I don't think he is all there myself.

[Trib4l]

Woops. I have enough time to brose this site, but not enough to check all the sources you guys obviously do.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Woops. I have enough time to brose this site' date=' but not enough to check all the sources you guys obviously do.[/quote']

 

To be honest, I don't either. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be enough to stop me.

[Darthbob]

Ok who broke Taim out in the first place? do you think it was some of his non channling followers? I dont. I think it was the black Ajah under orders of one or more chosen. RJ lets us know that good people can be turned to the dark with the 13 channeler/13fades yet its never been seen in this time. Whats to say that thats not what happened to Taim.

[Inara]

true, but taim has the personality to go with a DF, i dont think that can be changed

if it were so, i imagine it would be like he was being compelled, either that he would have good intentions or just never be aware of his actions, like sleepwalking. none of this is true, so if they turned him it was with persuasion and promises, honor and glory and power...the usual

[Luckers]

Who did break Taim out? It wasn't Liandran's group, but what group of non-channelers could hope to break Taim free from thirteen Aes Sedai?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Who did break Taim out? It wasn't Liandran's group' date=' but what group of non-channelers could hope to break Taim free from thirteen Aes Sedai?[/quote']

 

Liandrin's group likely is the one that instigated Taim's escape. The knew about the escape plan before it occurred. Taim's followers could have tried to. Guaire Amalason's followers almost broke him free.

 

Just because Liandrin's Darkfrieds wanted him free, doesn't make him a Darkfriend, and I don't believe he is. As a proclained Dragon Reborn, he could do a lot more damage and harm free than gentled regardless of his allegience.

[rochaid]

this is just my opinion but i think its obvious taim is a minion of demandred,the same "kill rand" orders,"let the lord of chaos rule," similiar personality traits and sayings(these,so called aiel,the forsaken are the only others to use this phrase)

[Luckers]

Liandrins crew did know of the plan, but they were all accounted for when everything actually went down. There were at least thirteen Aes Sedai in the group transporting Taim, and we've seen how, even if obeying the oaths, that many channelers can hold out against dramatically greater odds of non-channelers.

 

Guire Amalasan's followers attempted to free him... and failed. I think there must have been Aes Sedai involved. Either that or one of the Forsaken... which actually seems pretty likely to me if Taim is a darkfriend, which im convinced he is.

[Trib4l]

And likely a minion of Moridin of anyone, especially considering the colors displayed in Taim's 'hall' at the end of KoD.

[Auld Manriva]

I suppose it matters how he was set free, i just don't see how.

 

I've seen him becoming a darklord,dreadlord,dreadlock whatever for sometime.I mean it can't be just Black Sisters right :?:

 

Seems to me Logain's decided he's a DF. LTT has been more adamant about him being killed than the others and RJ has written him as the Slimeball of the year since Rands first meet with him.

'

I smell a red herring. Guess thats why i keep reading the books

[Ehecatl]

I've never been convinved that Taim i necessarily a bad guy, I mean he obviously has a thing for wanting power, and he did originally assume that Rand and he would be partners of some sort. Rand himself thinks at least once (honestly don't remember when/where, but I think somewhere in LoC) that not everyone who wants him dead or weakened is a Darkfriend, most of them are just people who are working for their own ends. I see Taim as being one of that group rather than anything else.

 

Also, RJ mentioned somewhere that when someone is turned with the 13 channelers and 13 Myrdraal that they become 'twisted' versions of themselves, like a mirror image, so if he had been turned, say (and I don't really buy that either, but that's just personal opinion) exhibiting traits common among Darkfriends doesn't rule out the possibility of his having been turned of itself.[/i]

[Trib4l]

Evil twins must always have a goatee - it's the law. Taim doesn't have a goatee, so he's not been turned.

[Maverick8088]

Ok, it's way to late for me to go on a search to find the right quote, and anyway my wife is asleep and I don't want to wake her going through my RJ stash.

 

But, I'm pretty sure the next line after Taim tells Pevara Sedai "You know the old saying...Let the Lord Of Chaos Rule" She thinks to herself that she had never heard such a saying in all her years.

 

Now I may be attributing the quote to the wrong character but I know I remember the reaction.

 

Nite all, wake me when the beer's cold!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Who did break Taim out? It wasn't Liandran's group, but what group of non-channelers could hope to break Taim free from thirteen Aes Sedai?

 

What about those 13 conveniently placed Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders? We don't really know much about them ... and if they're Black Ajah they certainly could have accomplished it. Particularly if that IS where Demandred is and he lent a hand.