Moridin = Rand?

[menzarra]

I've seen this mentioned so many times but i have yet to see where/when/why this is a accepted outcome.

 

I've read the series many times, but i've never gotten the feeling that Rand and Moridin will merge. Does this idea come from the Min viewing where she says Rand and someone else will merge to become one? (not the correct quote but close enough)Or is this something RJ has said will happen?

[Featherless Hawkwing]

It springs largely from the connection between Min's viewing (i.e becoming one, and then one dying) in aCoS, and "the Wanderer" in Shadar Logoth, when Rand's and, presumably Moridin's balefires intersect, making both dizzy and uncoordinated. Since you're on the aMoL forums, I'll assume you've read KoD, and say that whenever Rand channels (I think) and whenever Moridin uses the True Power, they see each other's nauseated faces, and feel nauseous themselves.

[Zardi]

I can see where the merge comes in with this. They do seem to have merged in a way inside each others' heads after they "touched" with balefire, as per Min's viewing. And it makes perfect sense that one of them will die.

 

This is what I don't understand: why do people think that Rand and Moridin will switch bodies? This doesn't come from Min's viewing (a switch is just that, a switch; it is not a "merge"). And what evidence do we have that souls can switch bodies in Randland? Did I just miss it?

 

Please help me out here. I keep hearing this theory without having any idea why people buy it. o_O

[Luckers]

Basically it has to do with prophecies about Rand's death. There are a whole bunch that refer in someway to him being dead, only crumpling, or it being revealed his face is a mask. Alivia must 'help him die' and to live he must die.

 

There is a developing contradiction. The strength with which his actual death is spoken of suggest it is more then merely faking his death through trickery, so people looked at the viewing of him merging with another man, and one of them dying, as well as the link with moridin, and its been suggested that they will switch bodies--which from the Forsaken we know IS possible--and that Alivia will kill Moridin in Rand's body, thus fulfilling the various prophecies.

 

Moreover the ongoing destruction that RJ has leveled on Rands body--the unhealing wounds, the loss of the hand, the damage to his eyes and so on also support this, to my mind. People dont like a dottering hero.

[Zardi]

and its been suggested that they will switch bodies--which from the Forsaken we know IS possible

I can't believe how forgetful I am, but when have the Forsaken switched bodies with another person? I'm assuming you mean something different than just being reborn into a new body, as that isn't really a switch; the Forsaken's soul is put into the new body, but the other person's soul wouldn't then be put into the Forsaken's old body (since that body is already dead). And in any case, that requires the DO's intervention. I doubt he'll be willing to help Rand out.

 

As for the destruction on Rand's body: plenty of people live happy lives with only one hand and bad eyesight. The wound in his side hasn't been healed yet, but that doesn't mean it never will be. Nynaeve's persistence in wanting to cure it, plus whatever they may be able to drag out of Semirhage, gives me hope that even if it can't be cured completely, it can at least be prevented from killing him.

 

An important question is whether the saa and other effects of the True Power stay with the body or with the soul. They do seem to be a physical effect, and if that turns out to be the case, I think Rand is better off with his own body.

[Luckers]

They wouldn't be put in the forsaken's body... there would be no reason too, likely they were just destroyed, but we do no that putting a soul into another body is possible from them. It works. Two way transferal between two living bodies should be equally possible. The only question is what the catalyst is, in the case of the Forsaken it was the Dark One's direct intervention, in this case i believe the mental link between the two will be used to that effect.

 

--Keep in mind that the dark one is not the only force we have seen remove or insert souls from or into bodies. Mordeth did it in Shadar Logoth with Fain, Machin Shin removes souls all the time, parts of dreamers souls leave and return to their bodies every night (which we know from when Perrin goes to far into TAR and feels like someone who has had their soul removed)

 

Rand's deteriating body is not proof, but i do think it is... i dunno... implicative, which isn't a word. But still, im sure u get what i mean.

 

An important question is whether the saa and other effects of the True Power stay with the body or with the soul. They do seem to be a physical effect, and if that turns out to be the case, I think Rand is better off with his own body.

 

The saa are a bunch of black dots that go accross the eyes but in now way impede vision. Currently that is the only effect of the True Power Moridin is suffering. We don't even know if they'll stick around once that body stops channeling the True Power. In what way would Rand be better off in a half-blind, handless body with two wounds that constantly hurt and a madmen in his head?

[bratr]

possibley Nyneave can heal Rand. I mean all throughout the books she has been getting more and more miraculess with her healing abilities (rand with the girl, and Nyneave believes all is healable but death

[Luckers]

Actually RJ makes a point that none of his characters are miraculous. Specifically, we've already seen other characters outstrip Nynaeve's healing ability (Sumeko).

[Zardi]

I wasn't talking about miracles, or even a complete cure, just a way to keep the wound from killing Rand and causing him so much pain. Nynaeve and Cadsuane have Semi, one of the greatest healers of the AoL, in their clutches now. I don't think it's stretching very far to believe that they can learn something from her to help Rand.

 

Rand's deteriating body is not proof, but i do think it is... i dunno... implicative, which isn't a word. But still, im sure u get what i mean.

I understand what you're trying to say, I just don't agree. Rand's injuries don't diminish his status as a hero. Rand isn't handless, he still has one hand. It isn't a superficial injury, to be sure, but as I said, plenty of people live happy lives after losing an entire limb.

 

Saying that Rand is half blind may not be entirely accurate. We know his eyes were injured, and that he was seeing things "as if through water" (which sounds a lot like what I see when I take my contacts off). We don't know that the injury is permanent, or that it can't be relieved at least partially. Again, even people who are permanently blind can live happy lives.

 

LTT started to appear in Rand's head when Rand started to suppress his emotions. LTT is the one who still feels emotion, whether it's anger or crying over Ilyena or what have you. When Rand allows himself to feel again (and the prophecies do say to "pray he remembers laughter and tears", or something close to that), LTT will have no reason to be there anymore.

 

So the only injury of Rand's that I consider to be a real problem to his survival is the one in his side, because it had gotten worse since Fain cut him. But, like I already said, they may well learn something from Semi that will help him out.

 

As for the saa, I never said they affected vision, but being stuck in a body that has channeled the TP isn't much of an upgrade. And if the taint from saidin didn't disappear if a man decided to stop channeling, then we have no reason to believe that the effects of the TP would disappear either. Furthermore, Rand is not aware of what all the effects of the TP are, so why would he take this risk? Or does the theory assume that someone other than Rand will initiate the switch?

 

And as far as the actual switching: just because the DO can put a soul into a new body doesn't mean two mortals (or non-deities, at least) can switch bodies. When visiting T'a'r, a person seems to send a part of their soul out of their body, but then the soul returns back to that body (or it dies in T'a'r). Mordeth was not human or mortal, nor did he have a body. We don't know exactly what machin shin is, but it is certainly not human. I just don't think we can assume that Rand or Moridin would be able to do things like this, and then take it even one step further to make it a complete body switch.

 

Who would be the one to initiate this switch, and what would their motive be?

 

I'm not saying that any of this disproves the theory...I know it doesn't...but I'm not convinced of it either.

[Ehecatl]

That's well summed up Zardi, I've been reading about this theory for a while now myself and I couldn't figure out where it'd come from., for pretty much those reasons.

The other thing which I couldn't get out of my mind is that if everyone came to this theory so quickly, and since it would be a big part of the story, do you really think RJ would use it? Even if he were building up to that, it wouldn't be all that difficult to come up with a new reason for Moridin and Rand's link and change the storyline.

[Kadere]

There is no way RJ will change the story line, even if we somehow got the event exactly right, and everyone agreed to it, RJ would write it the way he originally invisioned it 20 years ago, and we'd all just pat ourselves on the back. RJ has said time and time again that he knows where he's going, that he could have written the last scene 20 years ago and would only have to tweek some parts of it now for it to make sense, that his hand is very much directing these characters, and that he's never been influenced by a fan to change a plot point to keep everyone on their toes. My guess would be we're probably missing something, even though we also probably have the main idea, but RJ will certainly NOT change the ending no matter how smart we happen to be.

[merlinspetrock]

Other than superficial characteristics, I think RJ went ouot of his way to describe Moridin as looking alot like Rand (I know the hair coloring and some other things are off). They are both about the same age, tall... things like that. I missed the descriptions originally and always pictured the guy from Shadar Logoth to be an old man in my previous read throughs. I payed more attention this time through. That and the fact that RJ seems to be slowly destroying Rands body are the things that started to sway me. At first when I read the theory, I thought it was another stupid wishful thinking theory. Now I am not to sure. For all his work on the behalf of all people in Randland, I think a healthy body will be his reward. Not to mention that it will be easier for him to dissapear after the last battle with only a few people knowing what he looks like now. My only question is will this mean he can not wield Saidar after the body switch. Moridin only uses the TP as far as we have seen, and Im not sure if being able to tap the power is due to a physical tie in or lets call it a soul tie in. I have no doubt that Rand will survive the Last Battle in some way. They keep bringing up that part of the prophecy for a reason. Although at this point I think Rand wants to fight it and get some well deserved rest.

[Zardi]

For all his work on the behalf of all people in Randland, I think a healthy body will be his reward.

He deserves one, but does he necessarily have to switch bodies with Moridin, of all people, to get it? And can a body with side effects of the TP really be called healthy? :?

 

My only question is will this mean he can not wield Saidar after the body switch.

You mean saidin, right?

[Leafburner]

I think the other piece of information pertinent to the plausibility of this theory is the connection between Rand and Slayer. According to the Dark Prophecy, Luc meets Isam in the Mountains of Dhoom. One lives and one dies but both are. Luc and Isam are merged into a single being and given special powers by the Great Lord.

 

Now Luc is Rand’s biological uncle. Why are they related? Does it serve a purpose? I believe Slayer and Rand will come face to face in AMoL and Slayer will reveal some of his “merging†secrets with Rand. Once Rand has this information, who knows what he is to do with it. But I think the Luc Isam merge into Slayer is the only other example of a merge that we know of. I just don’t see any point in making one of the merged individuals a relative of Rand’s unless Rand’s future involves a similar fate. I mean, if Slayer is simply an assassin of the Dark One and that is the only significance of his character, then it doesn’t seem to make much sense why he and Rand are related. Not to me anyway. It just seems like unnecessary detail.

 

Even the wording of the description “one lives and one dies but both are†is very similar when used to describe Slayer or what Min sees in Rand’s future.

 

Plus doesn’t Elaida have a viewing, her first one, that says the blood line of the Lion Throne will be pivitol in defeating the Dark One? Yes, that could refer to Rand and perhaps even Elayne’s involvement, but what if it also refers to the involvement of Luc / Slayer? What if the information he can provide Rand about his “merge†experience is the key to Rand defeating Moridin?

 

Sure it is all speculation, but it is interesting to consider.

[Ehecatl]

I just keep noticing one big flaw in that argument, which is that the merge was done either by the Dark One or at his urging. Now why would he possibly want Rand to have a new body unless Rand turns to the Shadow? Rand is the Dark One's greatest enemy, and Moridin is portrayed as being one of his prime champions, so I just don't see what could possibly compell him to make the switch in the first place.

[Leafburner]

Well there are numerous references to Moridin (and Ishamael) wanting to turn Rand rather than kill him. He understands that the Dark stands a much better chance at victory if the Dragon is fighting on his side.

 

We don't actually know who merged Luc and Isam. we assume it is the Dark One, but we don't know.

[Zardi]

That is a good point you made before, Leafburner. I'm still not completely convinced (I'm stubborn :P) but that does give some weight to the theory.

[Leafburner]

Thanks Zardi.

 

In the end it is only a theory. I think it's a good theory, but I don't think I'll be convinced of anything until I am reading AMoL for myself.

 

It's fun to speculate, though.

[bratr]

well if they switched DO might gain some control he had over Moradin, over Rand

 

just an idea dont shoot me

[Zardi]

How would having a different body help in that regard, though?

 

*doesn't shoot* :P

[Leafburner]

If Rand did manage to swap bodies with moridin would the DO know? Would he have any clue that Rand's soul is inside Moridin's body?

[Luckers]

I just keep noticing one big flaw in that argument, which is that the merge was done either by the Dark One or at his urging. Now why would he possibly want Rand to have a new body unless Rand turns to the Shadow? Rand is the Dark One's greatest enemy, and Moridin is portrayed as being one of his prime champions, so I just don't see what could possibly compell him to make the switch in the first place.

 

Except that the Dark One is NOT the only force we've seen remove a soul or place a soul into a different body. Mordeth did so with Fain, Machin Shin removes souls all the time, Dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies and return all the time (which we know from Perrin) hell, we've even seen a ter'angreal that can yank a soul which implies at one stage someone intentionally and intelligently attempted to remove a persons soul... and succeeded.

 

He deserves one, but does he necessarily have to switch bodies with Moridin, of all people, to get it? And can a body with side effects of the TP really be called healthy?

 

Again, Moridin's body is healthy. To date the only side effects of the true power it has is the saa... which seem to be non-physical in any case. But even if it is black specks in your vision is by far preferable to damage Rand's body has suffered, which despite your optimism seems to be permenant.

[Zardi]

Again, how would Rand know that the only effects of the TP thus far are the saa? Who would share that information with him? For all he knows, he could be trading in his own body for a much worse one. Why take the risk? Or would the body switching be something he has no control over?

 

And well, I'll continue to be optimistic for Rand until I read otherwise in AMoL. As long as he gets healthy, I'm happy, no matter how he does it. I just happen to think that Cadsuane and Nynaeve should be able to weasel something helpful (again, not necessarily complete cures) out of Semirhage.

[Luckers]

Again, how would Rand know that the only effects of the TP thus far are the saa? Who would share that information with him? For all he knows, he could be trading in his own body for a much worse one. Why take the risk? Or would the body switching be something he has no control over?

 

You're looking at that question the wrong way. We have no indication that Rand has as yet to make the realisation that the TP has negative physical effects. I doubt it would even occur to him. Nevetheless though, my thought is that the body swap will be something he has no control over. Even if he was sure Moridin's body was healthy i don't nessasarily see him doing it.

 

And well, I'll continue to be optimistic for Rand until I read otherwise in AMoL. As long as he gets healthy, I'm happy, no matter how he does it. I just happen to think that Cadsuane and Nynaeve should be able to weasel something helpful (again, not necessarily complete cures) out of Semirhage.

 

I dont see Rand being healed in such a normal way after so long emphassising the unhealable nature of his wounds.

[Ehecatl]

I suppose, in the end, it really comes down to whether you like the theory or not since, evidence one way or the other aside, that's all it is right now. The people who believe the theory might be right or wrong, and we won't really know until aMoL comes out.

Either way, though, it'd be an interesting way to keep Rand alive I suppose.