The Horn of Valere

[RobertAlexWillis]

I should be more specific, does Eladia know it's in the Tower?

 

Um, no.  Verin and Siuan are the only ones who know exactly where it is, as far as we know.  Most everyone with Rand at Falme should probably know or be able to guess that its somewhere in the Tower, certainly the wonder-girls know, but its hidden.  If Elaida had found out it was there, I don't think she could resist pulling it out and waving it around to show how awesome she is.  After which it would have been promptly appropriated by Mesaana, or someone acting on her orders.

[Shard]

And that was what I was getting at, so when Verin up and dissappears at the end of KoD I know many theorized that she was going after the Horn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That does seem to be likely.

[cloglord]

Moiraine is subject to the same cultural beliefs as anyone else born in the westlands.

 

 

I don't disagree, however she is emphatic about its necessity.  Moraine is rarely emotional, and rarely seems motivated by cultural norms.  For instance, in the westlands cold blooded murder seems to be counter to the cultural norm, and yet Moraine details to three young men, on a number of occasions, that she will kill them in cold blood rather than see them turned to the shadow.  Clearly Moraine can and does act and react in ways that go against westland norms. In this case she is emphatic in her belief that the horn must go to Illian, and yet we do not see Moraine as emphatic about upholding any other cultural belief.  I must surmise from her reaction that she is basing this assertion off of something more substantive than simple cultural norm.

 

We do see a good part of Moiraines reasoning behind wanting to take the Horn to Illian, it is a political move based on the cultural "connection".

 

We do see a good part of her reasoning in TGH the better part of a month after she discovers that she is in possesion of the Horn.  That reasoning does involve quite a bit of political thought.  However the assertion from Moraine that I referenced took place, literally seconds after she realized what she had found.  As quick a thinker as Moraine is/was  I don't think that we can credit her with enough mental dexterity to hatch that entire plan and convince herself that it was necessary in the space of a few breaths.  That is not to mention the fact that she was, at that point, so weak from her encounter from Aginor, that she could not stand on her own.

 

The fact that Moraine was tired, injured, and surprised by the discovery of the Horn, (coupled with the fact that she is bound not to lie,) lead me to conclude that her reaction was genuine, and based off of some knowledge more defined than some broadly defined cultural reference, especially since we know that Moraine has spent the last 20 years searching for and studying everything to do with the Dragon, and prophecies of the coming last battle. 

[Majsju]

Moraine has spent the last 20 years searching for and studying everything to do with the Dragon, and prophecies of the coming last battle.   

 

And you think that during these 20ish years, Moiraine have never once thought that the Horn might be found before the Last Battle, and in that case, how to best use it if she is in a position to influence it?

You think that she spent every moment during these years focusing entirely on finding TDR, and not once thinking about what to do if she actually finds him?

 

Well, I have a little more trust in Moiraines intelligence than that.

[cloglord]

You honestly think that she spent time hatching a plan just in case she accidently found the horn of valere?

[Majsju]

Yup. That is what intelligent people do, plan for all eventualities they can think of.

 

Incidently, when Moiraine speaks about why the Horn must go to Illian, she only speaks of the political and cultural importance. Not once does she mention that any prophecies would have anything to do with that idea. And once the Horn is recovered after Falme, she seems quite content with letting Verin carry ot off to the White Tower. Quite strange behaviour if there had been anything in the prophecies. Quite less strange if it is a political decision, because rands actions in Falme have changed the gameplan.

 

The books proves you wrong, simple as that.

 

[MikeRiley]

Moiraine knew one of those 3 was the Dragon Reborn. She didn't know which one it was but she had a long trip to Tar Valon - and a detour to the Eye - to think about how to get recognition for him. This would have been on her mind constantly as it was so important. The Horn of Valere being discovered at the Eye of the World would have been the key piece sliding into place in a blacksmith's puzzle, it would have required little thought after seeing it to say "He'll take it to Illian and be the hero, and end up with an army behind him."

 

The only connection Illian actually has to the Horn of Valere is the prestige of being the one to call the Great Hunt.

[cloglord]

Yup. That is what intelligent people do, plan for all eventualities they can think of.

 

Which would of course explain my contingency plan for the impending attack on my home from the Swiss.  On the face of it it is ridiculous to assume that Moraine planned for the Horn of Valere to fall into her lap.  There is a difference between planning for likely events and preparing for the ridiculously unlikely.

 

Incidently, when Moiraine speaks about why the Horn must go to Illian, she only speaks of the political and cultural importance. Not once does she mention that any prophecies would have anything to do with that idea. And once the Horn is recovered after Falme, she seems quite content with letting Verin carry ot off to the White Tower. Quite strange behaviour if there had been anything in the prophecies. Quite less strange if it is a political decision, because rands actions in Falme have changed the gameplan.

 

Incidently, Moraine doesn't speak of why the horn must go to Illian, she is speaking of her plan for Rand to go to Illian and the subsequent political reward he would reap for being the one to deliver the horn.  She doesn't mention the importance of the horn going to Illian once in that explaination almost as if that fact is a given and that it doesn't need to be discussed at all.

 

After Falme she lets another aes sedai, an aes sedai that she has already trusted with her life take the horn and Mat back to the tower.  We know absolutely nothing about what Moraine understood to be the eventual destination of the Horn.  It could be that Moraine and Verin talked off screen and decided that the horn should be kept in the tower for safe keeping, or it could have been that Moraine entrusted the horn to Verin to see that it got to Siuan assuming that Siuan would see that it got sent on to Illian at the proper time.  Nothing anywhere indicated that Moraine believes that there is a timeline for the horn to reach illian beyond that it must before the last battle.  What safer place for the horn to wait than the tower until it is needed?  Especially since shortly after the horn went to the tower it was discovered that Sammael was ruling in Illian.

 

The books proves you wrong, simple as that.

 

The books prove no such thing.  

 

Moiraine knew one of those 3 was the Dragon Reborn. She didn't know which one it was but she had a long trip to Tar Valon - and a detour to the Eye - to think about how to get recognition for him. This would have been on her mind constantly as it was so important. The Horn of Valere being discovered at the Eye of the World would have been the key piece sliding into place in a blacksmith's puzzle, it would have required little thought after seeing it to say "He'll take it to Illian and be the hero, and end up with an army behind him."

 

It is a big jump from thinking that Rand could use the horn to further his recognition and political clout to a matter of fact, bound by the 3 oaths, statement that the Horn must go to Illian.  The first is generally a good thing and would have most likely led to positive outcomes for Rand and Co., but it is by no stretch of the imagination required, which is what Moraine said.

 

[MikeRiley]

She said the Horn must go to Illian because of her new plan. The Horn itself wasn't important, it was just a tool to get the Dragon Reborn into Illian with the nation's support behind him when he declares himself. She doesn't care about the Horn as a prophesied thing for the Last Battle - in fact, we know she didn't know whether or not it had anything to do with the Dragon himself except that both had to be present at TG. The Horn was a means to get Rand his power so he could declare himself without being butchered by a mob of people.

[cloglord]

Imagine the conceit of the person who believes that her plan is the only way that things can work.  Then take that person and give her a ready made plan for one of the most unlikely sets of events that you can think of.

 

It would be like me dumping the ark of the covenant into your lap, and you saying, "Great, I figured that this was the only way to create peace in the middle east, and I've got just the plan to put the ark to good use!"

 

 

[MikeRiley]

It wasn't ready-made. She would have been thinking about ways to get the Dragon Reborn (once she found out which of them it was) recognition and all that. Then all of a sudden they find the Horn of Valere and she knew. Like I said, it was the final piece of a blacksmith puzzle sliding into place.

 

It's not a big jump to go from "How can I get this guy the recognition he needs?" to "He can take the Horn to Illian" when she lays eyes on the Horn. The Great Hunt is told and retold countless times by bards. The guy who finds the Horn of Valere will have everlasting fame. It's really as simple as that.

[Majsju]

Which would of course explain my contingency plan for the impending attack on my home from the Swiss.  On the face of it it is ridiculous to assume that Moraine planned for the Horn of Valere to fall into her lap.  There is a difference between planning for likely events and preparing for the ridiculously unlikely.

 

If we look at the books for a while, Moiraine getting her hands on the Horn is far from "ridicilously unlikely".

She knows the Dragon is reborn. She is quite familiar with the prophecies, so she should know that this means the Horn will be found. Even if she is not the ne to actually find it, there is quite a chance for her to learn about it in time for her to secure it before it reaches Illian.

 

Moiraine is an exceptionally intelligent woman, if there is anything that is ridicilously unlikely here, it is your belief that she just walks around, hoping to find TDR, and then everything will be hunky dory. We are after all talkng about the woman who took it upon herself to not only find TDR, but to be the one guiding him. Do you really think her grand plan was "Ok, first I find him, and then I improvise until the DO is defeated?"

 

Seriously...

 

Incidently, Moraine doesn't speak of why the horn must go to Illian, she is speaking of her plan for Rand to go to Illian and the subsequent political reward he would reap for being the one to deliver the horn.  She doesn't mention the importance of the horn going to Illian once in that explaination almost as if that fact is a given and that it doesn't need to be discussed at all.

 

She is quite clear about why it is important to get the Horn to Illian.

And since you seem to need to reread that chapter, read it from the beginning, and pay attention to what they say about Agelmar. Agelmar, who wanted to get rid of the Horn so he would not be tempted to use it himself. Why did he not want to use it? because he is familiar with the prophecies, and the part about "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation." Not a word about "Right, it must go to Illian before anyone can blow it."

Continue reading, we hear that the prophecies says that is will not be found until shortly before TG. Not a word about Illian.

 

Skip ahead to chapter 22, where it is flat out stated that the Horn is not mentioned in the prophecies, other than that it must be found before TG. So if it is not mentioned in the Karaethon Cycle, what homemade prophecy are you trying to squeeze the Horn+Illian into?  

 

After Falme she lets another aes sedai, an aes sedai that she has already trusted with her life take the horn and Mat back to the tower.  We know absolutely nothing about what Moraine understood to be the eventual destination of the Horn.  It could be that Moraine and Verin talked off screen and decided that the horn should be kept in the tower for safe keeping, or it could have been that Moraine entrusted the horn to Verin to see that it got to Siuan assuming that Siuan would see that it got sent on to Illian at the proper time.  Nothing anywhere indicated that Moraine believes that there is a timeline for the horn to reach illian beyond that it must before the last battle.  What safer place for the horn to wait than the tower until it is needed?  Especially since shortly after the horn went to the tower it was discovered that Sammael was ruling in Illian.

 

So in a couple of months she goes from "Gasp! This must to Illian asap" to "Meh, it can wait, while we sit here drinking tea". Right.

 

The books prove no such thing.

 

 

Try a reread, you seem to desperatly need one.

 

It is a big jump from thinking that Rand could use the horn to further his recognition and political clout to a matter of fact, bound by the 3 oaths, statement that the Horn must go to Illian.  The first is generally a good thing and would have most likely led to positive outcomes for Rand and Co., but it is by no stretch of the imagination required, which is what Moraine said.

 

You might want to look into how the Oaths work. Search this board, there are several threads about that.

 

[cloglord]

If we look at the books for a while, Moiraine getting her hands on the Horn is far from "ridicilously unlikely".

She knows the Dragon is reborn. She is quite familiar with the prophecies, so she should know that this means the Horn will be found. Even if she is not the ne to actually find it, there is quite a chance for her to learn about it in time for her to secure it before it reaches Illian.

 

Right no one else would be trying to get their hands on the horn either.  Of course if someone else found it first and brought it to Illian, she could just expect to be able to walk right up to Mattin Stepaneos and ask him nicely for it.  :-\

 

She has no reason to expect that her quest for the horn is in any way tied to her quest to find the Dragon Reborn.  As you point out later in your post, the prophecies of the dragon only mention that the horn will be found before TG and give no other specifics. 

 

Moiraine is an exceptionally intelligent woman, if there is anything that is ridicilously unlikely here, it is your belief that she just walks around, hoping to find TDR, and then everything will be hunky dory. We are after all talkng about the woman who took it upon herself to not only find TDR, but to be the one guiding him. Do you really think her grand plan was "Ok, first I find him, and then I improvise until the DO is defeated?"

 

I absolutely think that she had a plan, but I do think that her plan got shot to hell soon after discovering that one of the three boys was likely TDR.  In fact I know this is the case because she says as much in TGH Ch. 5  Suian yells at Moraine for not following the 20 year plan that they had.  Do you mean to tell me that the plan that Suian and Moraine had cooked up over the past 20 years specifically called for the finding of the horn of valere and its deliverance by the dragon reborn to Illian for political gain?  If this is your belief, please explain to me why neither Moraine nor Suian had any clue that the Great Hunt for the Horn was to be called in Illian before it happened? 

 

She is quite clear about why it is important to get the Horn to Illian.

And since you seem to need to reread that chapter, read it from the beginning, and pay attention to what they say about Agelmar. Agelmar, who wanted to get rid of the Horn so he would not be tempted to use it himself. Why did he not want to use it? because he is familiar with the prophecies, and the part about "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation." Not a word about "Right, it must go to Illian before anyone can blow it."

Continue reading, we hear that the prophecies says that is will not be found until shortly before TG. Not a word about Illian.

 

No she is not clear about why the horn should go to Illian she is clear about why Rand should go to Illian, the Horn is supportive of that plan, but it not the point of the plan.

 

I do not need a re-read, I re-read it this morning before I even posted to this thread, and I've read this chapter probably 100 times in the carrying on of this debate in probably 5 different threads over the last 5 years.  i know this argument like the back of my hand, and I know this material like the back of my hand.

 

Algemar is familiar with the prophecy of the horn as are most who fight the shadow.  There is a specific quote from this prophecy given here, "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation."

 

The prophecy of the dragon only mention that the horn will be found just in time for the last battle.  This means that the bit about "whosoever sounds me..." specifically does not come from the prophecies of the dragon, but rather from some other (commonly known,) horn specific prophecy.  While you are correct that there is not a word in the Karatheon cycle about the horn going to Illian, we don't know anything about what this horn specific prophecy does or does not say about the Horn's destination.

 

Skip ahead to chapter 22, where it is flat out stated that the Horn is not mentioned in the prophecies, other than that it must be found before TG. So if it is not mentioned in the Karaethon Cycle, what homemade prophecy are you trying to squeeze the Horn+Illian into?

 

The Prophecy of the Horn that Agelmar and most others who fight the shadow are familiar with.  The one that the, "Whosoever sounds me..."  quote comes from, since we know for a fact that that quote doesn't come from the Karaethon Cycle.

 

So in a couple of months she goes from "Gasp! This must to Illian asap" to "Meh, it can wait, while we sit here drinking tea". Right.

 

No she goes from "Gasp! This must go with Illian," to "This must be kept safe, and with the 3rd leg of the Taveren tripod, who incidently is the only person in the world that the horn will work for, and who must go to Tar Valon because it is the only place in the world that he can be saved from certain death."  Makes perfect sense to me that she work together with Verin to get Mat and the Horn to safety before sending him and it on to Illian.  I doubt that Moraine expected that Mat would manage to escape from house arrest in the tower, but maybe that was part of her 20 year master plan too huh?

 

Try a reread, you seem to desperatly need one.

 

That is insulting, and is a cop out.  If I need a re-read so bad, explain to me why your last post quoted a horn prophecy, and then later claimed that there was no prophecy related to the horn. 

 

You might want to look into how the Oaths work. Search this board, there are several threads about that.

 

Condescend much?  I know how the oaths work, and in order for Moraine to have said it she needs to believe it.  She clearly believes that the Horn "must" go to Illian.  Why?  Because she said it.  Of course Aes Sedai can shade the truth with enough rationalization.  Of course they can say things that are not true if they believe them.  My point is that moments after discovering that she possessed the horn, she made this statement, which to my mind precludes any great amount of rationalization to manage a tricky interpretation of her meaning, and that even if she is incorrect that the horn must go to Illian she clearly believes that it must.  I believe that her belief stems from more than just some widely held cultural view of a culture that isn't even her own.  Since there seems to be some widely known prophecy of the Horn, the one that the "whosoever sounds me..." quote comes from, I think that is the most likely place for her to have reached that degree of certainty.  it certainly makes more sense to me than the idea that she had spent the last 20 years thinking up pre-rationalizations for why the horn should go to Illian if it just happened to fall into her lap.

 

 

[Majsju]

Right no one else would be trying to get their hands on the horn either.  Of course if someone else found it first and brought it to Illian, she could just expect to be able to walk right up to Mattin Stepaneos and ask him nicely for it.  :-\

 

She has no reason to expect that her quest for the horn is in any way tied to her quest to find the Dragon Reborn.  As you point out later in your post, the prophecies of the dragon only mention that the horn will be found before TG and give no other specifics.

 

Since she knows that the Dragon has been reborn, she knows that TG is coming, and thus she knows the Horn will be found, soon.

Now, look at who Moiraine is. She has spent almost 20 years travelling the world, creating contacts all over the place. She belongs to the Ajah that runs the largets eye&ear in the world, and she happens to be a close friend to the Amyrlin who used to run said eye&ear. And she lives in a world where people can correctly predict the future, where anyone can become ta'veren over night, where the Wheel forces certain events to take place...For her to completely ignore the possibility of her getting her hands on the Horn would be extremely ignorant.     

 

I absolutely think that she had a plan, but I do think that her plan got shot to hell soon after discovering that one of the three boys was likely TDR.  In fact I know this is the case because she says as much in TGH Ch. 5  Suian yells at Moraine for not following the 20 year plan that they had.  Do you mean to tell me that the plan that Suian and Moraine had cooked up over the past 20 years specifically called for the finding of the horn of valere and its deliverance by the dragon reborn to Illian for political gain?  If this is your belief, please explain to me why neither Moraine nor Suian had any clue that the Great Hunt for the Horn was to be called in Illian before it happened?

   

 

Anyone with the slightest experience of planning knows that however good your initial, main plan looks, you must always consider possibilities that changes things. However small the chances of those possibilities to actually happen might be.

 

No she is not clear about why the horn should go to Illian she is clear about why Rand should go to Illian, the Horn is supportive of that plan, but it not the point of the plan.

 

Without the Horn, sending Rand to Illian is absolutely pointless, since without it, he would not get the army Moiraine thinks he must have.

 

Algemar is familiar with the prophecy of the horn as are most who fight the shadow.  There is a specific quote from this prophecy given here, "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation."

 

The prophecy of the dragon only mention that the horn will be found just in time for the last battle.  This means that the bit about "whosoever sounds me..." specifically does not come from the prophecies of the dragon, but rather from some other (commonly known,) horn specific prophecy.  While you are correct that there is not a word in the Karatheon cycle about the horn going to Illian, we don't know anything about what this horn specific prophecy does or does not say about the Horn's destination.

 

Here is the thing, the two prophecies must be viewed in context. Any mention of a need to get the Horn to Illian in the prophecy of the Horn would all of a sudden bring in information specific to TG, and if that had been the case, the prophecy of the Horn would be closely related to the Karaethon Cycle, which is not only the prophecy of the Dragon, but also the prophecy of TG.

And again looking at Agelmar,the entire focus is on that one line from the Horn prophecy; not for glory, only for salvation. We get hints that he might have gone anyway, had the Aes Sedai not been there to take the Horn from him. Not a word about Illian, which, if it had existed, would have acted as a second reason for Agelmar to not run off to the Blight.

 

The Prophecy of the Horn that Agelmar and most others who fight the shadow are familiar with.  The one that the, "Whosoever sounds me..."  quote comes from, since we know for a fact that that quote doesn't come from the Karaethon Cycle.

 

Again, had there been any mention of Illian in the prophecy of the Horn, that prophecy would have been related to the Karaethon Cycle. Which means one would not have discussed one without considering the other. Basic cross-referencing.

 

No she goes from "Gasp! This must go with Illian," to "This must be kept safe, and with the 3rd leg of the Taveren tripod, who incidently is the only person in the world that the horn will work for, and who must go to Tar Valon because it is the only place in the world that he can be saved from certain death."  Makes perfect sense to me that she work together with Verin to get Mat and the Horn to safety before sending him and it on to Illian.  I doubt that Moraine expected that Mat would manage to escape from house arrest in the tower, but maybe that was part of her 20 year master plan too huh?

 

What does Mat have to do with anything? Just because he is the Hornsounder, he does not have to follow the Horn around 24/7. At this point, Rand has not even claimed callandor, he has a lot left on his plate. Plenty of time to have Rand get the Horn to Illian, get the Illianers behind him, and then leave the Horn there until it is time for Mat to use it again.

Since Moiraine does not do this, we must consider tham something might have changed...Oh right, Rand went off on his own and declared himself The Dragon Reborn, and while doing that the Horn was used. So he can no longer go anonymous to Illian and get them behind him. With the political importance of getting the Horn to Illian gone, it can just as well collect dust in the Tower until it is time to use it again.

 

Condescend much?  I know how the oaths work, and in order for Moraine to have said it she needs to believe it.  She clearly believes that the Horn "must" go to Illian.  Why?  Because she said it.  Of course Aes Sedai can shade the truth with enough rationalization.  Of course they can say things that are not true if they believe them.  My point is that moments after discovering that she possessed the horn, she made this statement, which to my mind precludes any great amount of rationalization to manage a tricky interpretation of her meaning, and that even if she is incorrect that the horn must go to Illian she clearly believes that it must.  I believe that her belief stems from more than just some widely held cultural view of a culture that isn't even her own.  Since there seems to be some widely known prophecy of the Horn, the one that the "whosoever sounds me..." quote comes from, I think that is the most likely place for her to have reached that degree of certainty.  it certainly makes more sense to me than the idea that she had spent the last 20 years thinking up pre-rationalizations for why the horn should go to Illian if it just happened to fall into her lap.

 

Apparently, you do not know how the oath works. Up til her quite radical change in the Aiel Waste, Moiraine is full of 'musts' for Rand. Keep in mind this, an Aes Sedai can speak things tat are not true if they believe it themselves, and in the early books, it is quite clear that Moiraine does believe she knows exactly what must be done where Rand is concerned. And she also shows a great aility to adapt to new circumstances when her 'musts' prove to not be the optimal course of action.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What kind of tree is that growing out of this dead horse, guys?  Apple, is it?

 

Seriously ... this is exactly the same discussion, by exactly the same people, taking exactly the same positions that they were literally years ago, before my journey in the wilderness ... its like a freaking time warp.

 

Who says you can never go back!  ;D

[Shard]

That was a great line there RAW, what exactly ARE those two arguing about? I mean it does seem rather pointless since the Horn IS in the Tower afterall. I think the important question is what is going to happen with it now if Verin has it. I mean I guess she would be going to get it to take to Mat and all. So let's hope she isn't BA *heh*

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think the important question is what is going to happen with it now if Verin has it. I mean I guess she would be going to get it to take to Mat and all.

 

LOL ... thats what they're arguing about.

[Shard]

Really? What does that had to do with Moraine since that seems to be the focus on their "discourse"

 

I really wonder about that whole Mat blowing the horn instead of Rand. Ishy really seemed certain that Rand would and in fact that it would hand Ishy victory in doing so somehow.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Really? What does that had to do with Moraine since that seems to be the focus on their "discourse"

 

They are arguing over whether or not it is necessary for the Horn to go to Illian at some point before the Last Battle, and arguing over the merits of using Moiraine's comments in the first two books to support that idea.

 

I really wonder about that whole Mat blowing the horn instead of Rand.

 

Thats what the Wheel "wanted".  That whole sequence at Falme felt tightly controlled.

 

Ishy really seemed certain that Rand would and in fact that it would hand Ishy victory in doing so somehow.

 

Well, Ishy is a liar, first of all, but his reasoning seemed to be that if Rand blew the Horn, the Tower would want to control him even more tightly.  Since Mesaana was likely already establishing herself in the Tower at this point, and Ishy had long had control of the Black Ajah, Rand going to the Tower would almost certainly have spelled disaster.

[Shard]

Ah I see, no I don't think the Horn needs to go there at all really, though I guess if you wanted to give Mat an ego boost or something. It just seems rather moot now, it would just seem weird is all.

 

Besides there was no prophecy saying that it had to go there, only the political agendas that Moraine said to Rand. Which are now pretty much moot since he rules the place.

[cloglord]

Since she knows that the Dragon has been reborn, she knows that TG is coming, and thus she knows the Horn will be found, soon.

Now, look at who Moiraine is. She has spent almost 20 years travelling the world, creating contacts all over the place. She belongs to the Ajah that runs the largets eye&ear in the world, and she happens to be a close friend to the Amyrlin who used to run said eye&ear. And she lives in a world where people can correctly predict the future, where anyone can become ta'veren over night, where the Wheel forces certain events to take place...For her to completely ignore the possibility of her getting her hands on the Horn would be extremely ignorant. 

 

That is not entirely true, at the point that she would have begun planning, she knows that the dragon has been reborn, but she does not know that the horn would be found at any point prior to TG, which could take place at any point between when she starts planning to 35 years later.  Further, she has no clue as to where the horn will be found, none.  I don't care how good her contacts are, she could not have reasonably expected that they would be able to find the horn and deliver it to her at all, unless that was the express purpose to which she set them.  There is no indication that she set them that task.  It is not feasible, and therefore did not recieve any major consideration in her planning process prior to the horn falling into her lap.

 

Without the Horn, sending Rand to Illian is absolutely pointless, since without it, he would not get the army Moiraine thinks he must have.

 

My point being the the portion of that chapter that you cited is not describing why the horn must go to Illian, but rather reasons that it would benefit their plan if Rand were to take the Horn to Illian.  No where in that speech does she indicate that her plan is a "must," only that it is a good plan given the change in circumstances.

 

Again, had there been any mention of Illian in the prophecy of the Horn, that prophecy would have been related to the Karaethon Cycle. Which means one would not have discussed one without considering the other. Basic cross-referencing.

 

Not nessecarily, you yourself have pointed out on many occasions that the Karaetheon cycle only briefly mentions the horn at all.  Not everyone is a scholar of the prophecies of the dragon, however most people who fight the shadow are aware of the prophecy of the horn.  To expect most everyone who is familiar with the prohecy of the horn to be equally familiar with the entirety of the kareatheon cycle is not a realistic expectation.  Why is it that no one but Verin and Ishamel managed to put two and two together and name Perrin the wolfking?  Because that passage was only mentioned briefly in the prophecy, and not at all to us the reader until the last book.  Simply becasue you and I are geeks about WoT does not mean that every randlander is as familiar with every scrap pf prophecy as we are.

 

What does Mat have to do with anything? Just because he is the Hornsounder, he does not have to follow the Horn around 24/7. At this point, Rand has not even claimed callandor, he has a lot left on his plate. Plenty of time to have Rand get the Horn to Illian, get the Illianers behind him, and then leave the Horn there until it is time for Mat to use it again.

Since Moiraine does not do this, we must consider tham something might have changed...Oh right, Rand went off on his own and declared himself The Dragon Reborn, and while doing that the Horn was used. So he can no longer go anonymous to Illian and get them behind him. With the political importance of getting the Horn to Illian gone, it can just as well collect dust in the Tower until it is time to use it again.

 

Verin and Moraine both know very well that Mat is vital to Rand's success.  Verin and Moraine both know very well that the Horn of Valere will be vital to Rand's success.  Verin and Moraine both know very well that Mat will die if he doesn't go to Tar Valon.  Verin and Moraine both know very well that the horn is useless without Mat. 

 

At this point in the story there is no such thing as traveling, it takes months to get from point A to point B.  At this point in the story neither Verin nor Moraine have any clue as to how long they will have before the onset of TG.  Remember unfullfilled prophecies don't mean that TG can't take place until after they are fulfilled,  they are a blueprint for the only successful resolution of TG.  While you and I take for granted that the prophecies will all be fulfilled, (because we the reader expect that Rand will win,)  neither Verin or Moraine are laboring under that assumption.  From their POV it makes no sense to split Mat from the horn, as it could prevent the two from being used at the critical moment.  However, it makes perfect sense to keep Rand away from Tar Valon as there is nowhere near enough evidence of his Dragon Reborness to prevent his gentling.  Rand and the horn can't travel together anymore, another well laid plan by Moraine down the tubes becasue of Tavereness.

 

Apparently, you do not know how the oath works. Up til her quite radical change in the Aiel Waste, Moiraine is full of 'musts' for Rand. Keep in mind this, an Aes Sedai can speak things tat are not true if they believe it themselves, and in the early books, it is quite clear that Moiraine does believe she knows exactly what must be done where Rand is concerned. And she also shows a great aility to adapt to new circumstances when her 'musts' prove to not be the optimal course of action

 

You don't get that one for free, please provide at least one quote of one of Moraine's "musts" for Rand in the early books. I'll happily point out how any such quote fits within the framework of Moraine's oath.  Even if you can provide these quotes you are still missing the essential point.  Moraine has been planning for eventualities with the dragon for the past 20 years,  even if she did fill Rand's days with oathbinding "musts"  it would have come from years of rationalization, more than enough rationalization to bypass the oath restriction.  However we aren't discussing Moraine's "musts" for Rand, we are discussing Moraine's "must" for the Horn of Valere.  The discovery of which came as a complete suprise, and without the benefit of 20 years of rationalization to make her statement true, she still clearly states that the horn "must" go to Illian. 

 

What kind of tree is that growing out of this dead horse, guys?  Apple, is it?

 

RAW, my point is that there is clearly a "Prophecy of the Horn," and that beyond that one quote about, "Whosoever..." we know nothing about it.  To say unequivicably that the Horn will not go to Illian based on the fact that it is not explicity stated in published prophecy is a fallacy.  I submit that the establishment of this idea of a "prophecy of the horn," is an advancement of this argument beyond where it was the last time it came around.

 

Incidently, we have both been on a jounrey into the wilderness at least as it relates to particiaption on these boards, and I'm glad to see that you are here with the emminent arrival of the next book, so that we can continue our debates of these issues,  I am eagerly anticipating the feast of crow that will take place after the horn goes to Illian... ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

RAW, my point is that there is clearly a "Prophecy of the Horn," and that beyond that one quote about, "Whosoever..." we know nothing about it. To say unequivicably that the Horn will not go to Illian based on the fact that it is not explicity stated in published prophecy is a fallacy.

 

LOL ... you almost drew me back in.  I had a response typed out and everything

 

Incidently, we have both been on a jounrey into the wilderness at least as it relates to particiaption on these boards, and I'm glad to see that you are here with the emminent arrival of the next book, so that we can continue our debates of these issues,  I am eagerly anticipating the feast of crow that will take place after the horn goes to Illian.

 

Well, I'm definitely not getting back into this one, but it is good to see you're still around too.  And I'm glad you're looking forward to the feast!  Will you need anything with your crow?  Something to wash it down, perhaps? ;D 

[General Cauthon]

That is not entirely true, at the point that she would have begun planning, she knows that the dragon has been reborn, but she does not know that the horn would be found at any point prior to TG

 

Vandene states that the Horn must be found before TG, and I doubt Moiraine didn't know that. Moiraine had spent 20 years reading everything that's written about TG, so that she could guide the Dragon when the time came.

 

Further, she has no clue as to where the horn will be found, none.  I don't care how good her contacts are, she could not have reasonably expected that they would be able to find the horn and deliver it to her at all, unless that was the express purpose to which she set them.  There is no indication that she set them that task.  It is not feasible, and therefore did not recieve any major consideration in her planning process prior to the horn falling into her lap.

 

Moiraine knows that the Horn will be found, and that the Dragon Reborn would be a ta'veren, possibly the strongest ta'veren of that Age. I bet she was certain that the Dragon would get his hands on the Horn before TG. And if she was there to guide him, so would she. Of course she had planned what to with the Horn when it was found.

 

Not nessecarily, you yourself have pointed out on many occasions that the Karaetheon cycle only briefly mentions the horn at all.  Not everyone is a scholar of the prophecies of the dragon, however most people who fight the shadow are aware of the prophecy of the horn.  To expect most everyone who is familiar with the prohecy of the horn to be equally familiar with the entirety of the kareatheon cycle is not a realistic expectation.

 

The only reason the "prophecy" about the Horn is wellknown in Randland, is because every gleeman out keeps telling the tales of the Hunt for the Horn. As far as I know, the Aes Sedai that hid the Horn beneath the Eye may have left instructions that only those that thought about salvation should use the Horn, and that it must be found before TG.

 

RAW, my point is that there is clearly a "Prophecy of the Horn," and that beyond that one quote about, "Whosoever..." we know nothing about it.  To say unequivicably that the Horn will not go to Illian based on the fact that it is not explicity stated in published prophecy is a fallacy.  I submit that the establishment of this idea of a "prophecy of the horn," is an advancement of this argument beyond where it was the last time it came around.

 

Unlike you, I would say that there may be a Prophecy of the Horn, but that the one quote just as well could be from the stories told by gleemen. After all, I doubt that the general population of Randland would read the prophecies of the Horn, and ignore the Karaetheon cycle.

 

And nowhere, in any prophecy we've seen so far, has any place been named specifically by their current name. If there's a prophecy of the Horn, it would predate Illian by centuries, if not millenia. If Illian was metioned in the Prophecies of the Horn, as a place the Horn must go to before TG, there would probably be hundreds of cities, and towns named Illian, in hope of becoming the city that gets a visit from the Horn.

 

That is the best argument I can come up with, against Illian being mentioned specifically in ANY Prophecies.

[Mr Ares]

If there's a prophecy of the Horn, it would predate Illian by centuries, if not millenia.

Why? A prophecy could be made while the Horn is still missing.