Rand and the Creator

[salmidach]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but I've just starting re-reading the series and have just finished reading ACoS and realised that Rand has met the Creator.

 

during his battle with Sammael at Shadar Logoth, Rand meets a man who helps him with his battle against Sammael and says "Try not to stumble. A great many plans will have to be relaid if you get yourself killed now." The major word in those sentences is RELAID. If Rand was to die then Tarmon Gai'don would not go ahead, he has to be at the last battle, this means the creator would step in and delay the event until the Dragon was reborn.

 

Also, what is more proof is the fact that the man uses balefire without Rand sensing Saidin or Saidar, so this cannot mean that it was one of the reborn forsaken. It was the Creator and the reason why Rand could not sense the use of the one power was because it was the True Power and the Creator is the True Power. Now you say why would the creator use balefire when it wipes away the history of the thing it destroys, but what did the man aim balefire at? Mashadar, something that was entirely evil and not of the Creators creation, thus giving no reason why the creator wouldn't use balefire against such a creation.

 

That is my theory anyway.

[Mighty Chin]

That was Moridin

[Ganth]

Yeah, sorry you're theory isn't correct :(

 

It was Moridin. The only time I recall the Creator has ever made an appearance was tEotW at the end with the capital letters and such.

 

The Dark One and the Creator speak in capitals.

[Avery]

Also, what is more proof is the fact that the man uses balefire without Rand sensing Saidin or Saidar, so this cannot mean that it was one of the reborn forsaken. It was the Creator and the reason why Rand could not sense the use of the one power was because it was the True Power and the Creator is the True Power. Now you say why would the creator use balefire when it wipes away the history of the thing it destroys, but what did the man aim balefire at? Mashadar, something that was entirely evil and not of the Creators creation, thus giving no reason why the creator wouldn't use balefire against such a creation.

 

The True Power is of the Dark One, not the Creator, and Moridin would use it because it suits his purpose to create chaos.

[Cockta]

The theory sounds very nice, but I think it is Moridin. But why didn't then Moridin just balefire Rand? That would give the Shadow a considerate advantage, and time too. Time is of the essence, for both the Light and Dark.

[Majsju]

We have seen before that the shadow has other plans for Rand. Otherwise they could easily have killed him at almost any given time.

[Fryn]

The theory sounds very nice, but I think it is Moridin. But why didn't then Moridin just balefire Rand? That would give the Shadow a considerate advantage, and time too. Time is of the essence, for both the Light and Dark.

 

The DO wants the dragon alive. If the dragon isn't there then the DO can't win. Time is on the DOs side. The longer the dragon lives and doesn't break all the seals the more of a pressence he is exerting over Randland before the final battle. The longer the dragon lives the more chaos that is created. Which is one of the big reasons for the no kill order in my opinion. Reading the series you see that Rand creates more chaos than most of the forsaken combined.

 

As RJ said the light are actually in a losing position at the moment. And they have a slim slim chance of winning. Time isn't of essence to the dark, just the light.

[Cockta]

I have seen the so-called progress of the light. Rand has done some great things, but I just don't find it to be enough to defeat the armies of the Shadow, and I fear he won't be strong enough to stand up against the Dark One. He wanted to have every country behind him so he could use every soldier that there is to defeat the amry of the Dark, but he only have like, what? Tear Illian and Cairhien. He "has" Andor too, and some AS and Ashaman. Not gonna do against millions of trollocs and other shadowspawn. Not to mention all the DF that are so annoying. You know, even an army that is ten times larger tha yours can totally fall aprart if you use your spies correctly, which the DO and the forsaken are doing right now.

[Fryn]

Remember this is just my opinion. Rand was doing well for a while, but then he got it into his thick skull to start reading the prophecies and try to force events. As soon as he did this things started going wrong to a point. While trying to bend the prophecies and get them ticked off and out of the way he did a lot of damage that might of been avoided. If you notice it wasn't until after he started studying the prophecies that the no kill order came out. He caused an awful lot of chaos by forcing the events.

 

The best thing he did after that point was cure the taint which he didn't even realise was one of the prophecies (the great wound he healed). He would of been better served following his gut reaction and letting the pattern guide him. Lots of what Rand wants to happen is not what needs to happen.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I have seen the so-called progress of the light. Rand has done some great things, but I just don't find it to be enough to defeat the armies of the Shadow, and I fear he won't be strong enough to stand up against the Dark One. He wanted to have every country behind him so he could use every soldier that there is to defeat the amry of the Dark, but he only have like, what? Tear Illian and Cairhien. He "has" Andor too, and some AS and Ashaman. Not gonna do against millions of trollocs and other shadowspawn. Not to mention all the DF that are so annoying. You know, even an army that is ten times larger tha yours can totally fall aprart if you use your spies correctly, which the DO and the forsaken are doing right now.

 

Don't forget that Rand more or less has Ghealdean via Perrin.  Also he still has to deal with the Borderland armies and however that goes down I'm sure it will end with him having the support to the Borderlands.  Then once he meets with the real Tuon he will likely gain not only the Seanchan controled parts of Randland but the Seanchan mainland as well.  Then I'm sure that this Ituralde fellow will play some role in helping Rand forge an alliance with Arad Doman.  So the pretty much covers every nation except Murandy.

[salmidach]

Also, what is more proof is the fact that the man uses balefire without Rand sensing Saidin or Saidar, so this cannot mean that it was one of the reborn forsaken. It was the Creator and the reason why Rand could not sense the use of the one power was because it was the True Power and the Creator is the True Power. Now you say why would the creator use balefire when it wipes away the history of the thing it destroys, but what did the man aim balefire at? Mashadar, something that was entirely evil and not of the Creators creation, thus giving no reason why the creator wouldn't use balefire against such a creation.

 

The True Power is of the Dark One, not the Creator, and Moridin would use it because it suits his purpose to create chaos.

 

why do you think that? the true power isn't saidin or saidar, it is both, that is why the Dark One can only give it to users. The Dark One couldn't have created the true power, it is needed for both saidin and saidar to exist, the true power is the creation of the Creator, everything is the creation of the Creator even the dark one (except for Mashadar which was the darkest evil created by man.

 

where does it say that Moridin was the man at Shadar Logoth? did the boss man say it was so?

[Majsju]

why do you think that? the true power isn't saidin or saidar, it is both, that is why the Dark One can only give it to users. The Dark One couldn't have created the true power, it is needed for both saidin and saidar to exist, the true power is the creation of the Creator, everything is the creation of the Creator even the dark one (except for Mashadar which was the darkest evil created by man.

 

where does it say that Moridin was the man at Shadar Logoth? did the boss man say it was so?

 

You are confusing the True Power with the True Source. The True Source is Saidin and Saidar, the True Power is the DOs own power.

 

And that Moridin was the guy in SL is quite obvious from start, and 100% confirmed in KOD.

[Mr Ares]

everything is the creation of the Creator even the dark one

No. Shai'tan and the Creator are equals and opposites. We have no reason to believe that one created the other - indeed, that doesn't fit that well with what we know. Nor with the sources RJ used. Two gods, not one. Also, the Creator is not getting involved. Aside from the voice in EotW saying I WILL TAKE NO PART, we also have this:

Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

And this:

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books...it's somewhat Manichean, I know, but I think it works

[Cockta]

Can someone please write down the sentences where the Creator was supposedly heard saying that he would not take any part.

 

I have always wondered what the difference between the True Source, and the True Power. Are you sure the True Power is the DO own power? That the TP isn't used by both the DO and the Creator?

[Majsju]

I have always wondered what the difference between the True Source, and the True Power. Are you sure the True Power is the DO own power? That the TP isn't used by both the DO and the Creator?

 

Yes, we know for sure that they are two completely different things.

[Fryn]

Can someone please write down the sentences where the Creator was supposedly heard saying that he would not take any part.

 

In against the shadow

"The light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end"

IT IS NOT HERE (personal insert: the creator knows rand isn't fighting the DO at all, but ishy)

It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

There are some other things you can get out of that chapter, but thats the line you want.

[Cockta]

And "THE CHOSEN" is Rand? He is the Chosen of the Light, while the 13 are the Chosen of the Dark?

[Luckers]

There were actually hundreds of thousands of Chosen of the Shadow, and even upwards of twenty-nine who recieved the special chosen mark. The thirteen we currently know simply are those that survived because, by chance, they were sealed outside of time by the sealing of the bore.

 

I don't think much comparative symbolism can be drawn between them and Rand.

[Hybrid]

I always wondered about those other Chosen...I wish RJ had been able to do a detailed backstory about the AOL similar to how Tolkien did the Silmarillion.  (Yes, I know the difference in the situations.  I can't help wishing though, can I?).