R.J. didn't lie but "Mazrim Taim" is Demandred

[Majsju]

Taim is not Moridin, period. Search the other 5000 threads about it to find all the evidence you need.

[benr]

It has been pointed out that usually the male Forsaken became that because of hatred/jealousy of LTT.  This is exactly the process Taim went through, but with Rand.  He is extremely egotistical; he considers Rand to be far his inferior, and really hates the fact that Rand is the DR, not Taim.  I, too, believe, that he is the first new Chosen.  For all the good it will do him.

[Majsju]

That is pretty much what I have said for years, that Taim is the "3rd Age Demandred", in the sense that he jumped ship for the very same reasons Demandred did.

 

Taim was a false Dragon for some time, and I think it is quite possible that he actually believed he was the dragon reborn. And going to team up with rand, he might have hoped he would get his fair share of the glory, until Rand made it very clear exactly what position Taim could expect. Taim seems like a man so full of himself that he would have been ripe for plucking right there. And shortly afterwards one of the Forsaken joins the BT...

[Guest Dreadlord]

For some reason I think Taim was raised as a False Dragon by the Dark

[Mr Ares]

*draws breath*... *sees Ares said everything*... *pouts*.

*Sees Luckers's post*... *grins evilly*... *raises two fingers*

 

Where are they?

In the ground.

Why have they done nothing since the first book?

Because they've been dead since the end of the Trolloc Wars 2,000 years ago.

Those Dreadlords you mentioned Mr Ares are the ones from the Age of Legends, and since everyone refers to them in the past tense in the books then I think its OK to say they are all dead.

Trolloc Wars was Third Age. Dreadlords were Trolloc Wars era. Chosen were Age of Legends. And if they were around in great numbers in the Third Age, how can Taim be the first of the Third Age? Does not compute, as the old robot saying goes.

You cant seriously believe that the Shadow has some hidden army of Darkfriend male channelers standing around for two years while Rand takes over and the Forsaken bicker among themselves?

No. Nor did I say anything of the sort (although some people may contend such an army exists).

If there was some nest of male channelers working for the Shadow then they would almost definitely have been teamed up with the Black Ajah. The only non-Forsaken male channelers loyal to the Shadow are those taught at the Black Tower if you ask me.

Now, yes. But not for the entire Third Age.

 

There's plenty of clues. Please take my word for it.

No. Show us these "clues". Then we can show you just how pitiful your case is. Or jusr do as Maj says and look at any of the other threads which have already disproven this theory (which requires out of character acting for Ishamael, and is unsupported by anything but the most tenuous reasoning).

 

Could Demandred be Asuana?

Not unless Asuana or however its spelled was not seen on screen during the period covered by RJ's statement that we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego on screen.

[Hybrid]

If you think about it, you don't have many options if you're a powerful male sparker.  You can try to avoid the Power (impossible), turn yourself in to Aes Sedai (suicide), or proclaim yourself the Dragon Reborn and pray you aren't a false Dragon.  It's pretty obvious which option you would choose, unless you're Rand.  Also, I do not see why Ishamael would raise Taim as a False Dragon, since he clearly knew one of the Two Rivers bumpkins was the Dragon Reborn in TEOTW.

[Mr Ares]

If you think about it, you don't have many options if you're a powerful male sparker. You can try to avoid the Power (impossible), turn yourself in to Aes Sedai (suicide), or proclaim yourself the Dragon Reborn and pray you aren't a false Dragon. It's pretty obvious which option you would choose, unless you're Rand.

Avoid the Source? Actually, didn't Rand try that? Oh, and turning yourself over to the Aes Sedai is not necessarily suicide. It is entirely possible to survive severing and go on to live a long and happy life. Cadsuane stayed with one man for ten years after he was gentled, and Setalle Anan seems quite alive to me.

Also, I do not see why Ishamael would raise Taim as a False Dragon, since he clearly knew one of the Two Rivers bumpkins was the Dragon Reborn in TEOTW.

The reasoning is simple. Ishy raised a False Dragon (or maybe more than one) in order to cause chaos and destruction in the Dragon's name. So when Rand declares himself people associate him with the other False Dragons and the destruction that comes with them. It helps to make people think the worst of him and his intentions, spreads fear and mistrust.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ok Ares, your previous post proved my point. All the old Dreadlords are dead, meaning the Dark has no male channelers other than the Darkfriend Ashaman and male Forsaken. My previous post said that there were no male channelers on the Dark Side between EotW and the rise of the Black Tower, other than the Forsaken. Cheers for that.

 

As for why would Ishamael raise a False Dragon, when he knew where the real one was. Its the same as everything else the Forsaken do; EVERYTHING they do in the long run is aimed at either making it hard for Rand to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon, or to make it easy for the Dark to prepare for it. If the Dark set up a false Dragon, then its just yet another false Dragon that needs killing. With so many popping up early in the series, including Taim, who would expect that the NEXT one would be the real thing? There was a false Dragon in Murandy and they killed him very quickly, it is something Siuan has been wondering about in TGH. Can you imagine the outcome if Rand had died as quickly as the false Dragon in Murandy? Ishamael, or whoever set Taim up (If I am right of course) timed it perfectly. In a world where False dragons appear regularly (in TGH Siuan said there are three at the moment and three in the past however-long), people begin to hunt them down more frantically, and with the real Dragon about to proclaim himself, Ishamael or whoever would think theres a chance Rand might be killed by people who would end up supporting him later.

 

Its a shame not many of the Shadows plans work, because many of them are very clever. Taim is one of my favorite bad guys because of how successful he is, and Ishamael/Moridin is up there for the same reason.

[Mik]

There's plenty of clues. Please take my word for it.

No. Show us these "clues". Then we can show you just how pitiful your case is. Or jusr do as Maj says and look at any of the other threads which have already disproven this theory (which requires out of character acting for Ishamael, and is unsupported by anything but the most tenuous reasoning).

Ok ok, I'll pick up that glove. About time I added my two cents *wink Maj*

Gimme a bit of time though; my daughter was born August 2.  :D

 

Mik will Warp your braaaaiiin.

 

Edit:

Oh.. and about the 5k threads; numbers mean didly on the web.

We've all seen everyone and their dog parrot the same ol' same ol' over and over again every -say- 2 months.

I'm pretty sure I've got some stuff up my sleeve that I believe have never been adressed (not here, nor on Wotmania or Theoryland etc..)

Linda over at Wotmania already made a decent post about Taim being Moridin, but I'll shovel some more 'pitiful' stuff (thanks for that) on the pile for you to dismantle.

 

Cheers, Mikky-the-Mik

[Hybrid]

[Avoid the Source? Actually, didn't Rand try that? Oh, and turning yourself over to the Aes Sedai is not necessarily suicide. It is entirely possible to survive severing and go on to live a long and happy life. Cadsuane stayed with one man for ten years after he was gentled, and Setalle Anan seems quite alive to me.

Yeah, Rand tried it, but he pretty much failed.  Granted, the whole Ba'alzamon-in-my-dreams thing didn't help either.  Also, it's pretty much suicide unless the severed individual can find something to fill the void in their life.  Setalle Anan was cared for by her husband.  Cadsuane is noted as an exception.  It seems, though, that the majority of the severed individuals give up wanting to live.  Look at Logain.  He wanted to die until after the Tower coup, when Siuan gave him to drive for revenge.

The reasoning is simple. Ishy raised a False Dragon (or maybe more than one) in order to cause chaos and destruction in the Dragon's name. So when Rand declares himself people associate him with the other False Dragons and the destruction that comes with them. It helps to make people think the worst of him and his intentions, spreads fear and mistrust.

I considered this, as well as the fact that it seems Taim has held off the Taint longer than anyone thought possible.  It just seems redundant, when all your efforts are focused at the real thing.  Once he failed to turn Rand, I can understand Plan B coming into effect.

[Mr Ares]

Ok Mr Ares, your previous post proved my point. All the old Dreadlords are dead, meaning the Dark has no male channelers other than the Darkfriend Ashaman and male Forsaken. My previous post said that there were no male channelers on the Dark Side between EotW and the rise of the Black Tower, other than the Forsaken. Cheers for that.

You said the following:

I think he is the first male channeler of this Age to go over to the Dark without being turned against their will.

Which is almost certainly false. Unless all the male Dreadlords were forced into it. You said:

I think he is the first to go over willingly.

 

I am fairly sure that if the Shadow had a significant ammount of male channelers before the Black Tower formed we would surely have heard about them? There may be the odd one, but I reckon Taim was the first one to approach the Dark without being manipulated into it.

When you say first to go over willingly, you put no time limit on it. First ever? First in the last 50 years? First in the Third Age? You said before the Black Tower, but we know of two groups before the Black Tower - Dreadlords and the Chosen. Again, no specification of time, although the Chosen were around in the Age of Legends. You said (in your previous post):

For some reason I think Taim was raised as a False Dragon by the Dark

Which is not what you say it says. Are you confused? The post that I took apart earlier made no mention of EotW beyond this: "Why have they done nothing since the first book". My response was to your assessment that Taim was the first to go over to the Shadow in the Third Age. Not the first over the course of the series. By trying to say now that you only meant Taim was the only Third Age male channeler the Shadow had between EotW and the rise of the Black Tower, you may be correct, so far as we know, but that is not what you said earlier. You're moving the goalposts after I've already scored. Your earlier statements did not rule out the Dreadlords as an army of Third Age male channelers who were not manipulated into joining the Shadow. So you were wrong to say Taim was the first to go over willingly during the Third Age. My post proves my point. It only proves your point now because you've changed what your point is. You said Third Age. You were wrong.

 

Its a shame not many of the Shadows plans work, because many of them are very clever. Taim is one of my favorite bad guys because of how successful he is, and Ishamael/Moridin is up there for the same reason.

How successful is Taim? Or Moridin for that matter?

 

Gimme a bit of time though; my daughter was born August 2.  :D

Since when has that been an excuse?

I'm pretty sure I've got some stuff up my sleeve that I believe have never been adressed (not here, nor on Wotmania or Theoryland etc..)

Unlikely, but I'm willing to listen, as ever.

 

Yeah, Rand tried it, but he pretty much failed. Granted, the whole Ba'alzamon-in-my-dreams thing didn't help either. Also, it's pretty much suicide unless the severed individual can find something to fill the void in their life. Setalle Anan was cared for by her husband. Cadsuane is noted as an exception. It seems, though, that the majority of the severed individuals give up wanting to live. Look at Logain. He wanted to die until after the Tower coup, when Siuan gave him to drive for revenge.

Logain was a prisoner. Was he really the best example? Most men probably try not channeling, if they know what they are doing (most probably don't. Nynaeve didn't, for example. Why should men?).

[Hybrid]

Logain was a prisoner. Was he really the best example? Most men probably try not channeling, if they know what they are doing (most probably don't. Nynaeve didn't, for example. Why should men?).

 

I was talking about being severed.  Logain was a prisoner, but he mentions wanting to kill himself, and Elayne talks about seeing him crying.  If by your talk of Nynaeve, you're referring to the 3 options I mentioned earlier, yes, most men probably don't know what they're doing.  That doesn't mean they try not to channel.  If you don't know you're channeling, you can't stop yourself from doing it.  Those who do find out may try to stop from channeling, but by then, you've probably already channeled by accident already.  This is how sparkers start channeling: they want something to happen, and channel without knowing.  So refraining from channeling is not a logical option, if you think it through. 

[Luckers]

Dreadlord, you've backed yourself into a corner, and not just because of what Ares has raised--though he is indeed correct, Dreadlords did indeed exist in this age--they were gathered and trained by Ishamael during the Trolloc Wars, and in enough numbers to equal the Tower, which at the time numbered over 6,000.

 

Since he was so successful then, why would he not do it now? We know that he learned of Rand's birth sixteen years prior to the beginning of the story, why would he have not immediately begun gathering channelers as he did in the Trolloc Wars? And indeed, we have direct evidence that he did--Taim speaks of men he found and trained--oh, he says they went insane, and skimps on the number, but given he's a darkfriend the first seems unlikely, and given he'd have access to any darkfriend so does the second (tens of thousands fought in the Trolloc Wars, so even with the decline of population, and at one percent channeling ability thats still thousands of potential darkfriend channelers).

 

Not to mention that the amount of men who can channel who the Tower have found have randomly decreased--we know it isn't due to culling the ability, though the numbers have fallen from 3% to 1% since the Age of Legends that still represents hundreds of thousands of channelers, and far more sparkers than have been caught by the Tower, even with  3/4 dying.

 

No, there are Dreadlords out there seperate from any channeling organisation; both male and female.

 

Mik, suggesting you have clear arguments to suggest something without supplying them is pretty weak, especially when you dismiss other posters knowledge of such events. The idea that Moridin might be Taim has been discussed--in quite a degree of detail too. The general consensus is that it is very unlikely. We're always willing to listen, but such comments are dismissive and divisive...

 

Effectively, put up, or leave it be. :)

 

 

[benr]

Gimme a bit of time though; my daughter was born August 2.  :D

 

 

Hey!  Congrats to you and your family.  A wonderful time of your life.  Now, get your priorities straight and get that post on! ;)

[Mr Ares]

I was talking about being severed.

I know what you were talking about. Logain was a prisoner. Therefore, while his symptoms may be typical, his treatment was not necessarily so. His wanting to kill himself may be something that frequently doesn't manifest because other men are given something to fill the void in their lives. That said, the men Gentled by Cadsuane are said to live markedly longer lives than those Gentled by others, and given AS behaviour in general, or towards burnt out Sisters (get rid of them!) I can't exactly see them doing much beyond taking them out of the Tower, maybe giving them some money or forcing a wife on them and then doing their level best not to think about being cut off from the Source.

 

If you don't know you're channeling, you can't stop yourself from doing it.

Exactly my point. Only those who are aware that they can channel will actually try to prevent themselves from doing it. We know from the relative scarcity of False Dragons that this is not the preferred option of channeling men, because of the rather low esteem AS are held in it's hard to see many being eager to throw themselves on the Tower's mercy, so try not to channel/go nuts is really the best option.

 

Now, get your priorities straight and get that post on! ;)

Don't be silly. Everyone knows that screwing up your children is something that takes a lot of time and effort, and it's best to start young. Start making plans. Just making it up as you go along frequently results in children who are better adjusted than you might want.

 

A wonderful time of your life.

Isn't that when they move out?

[benr]

Mr. Ares, you must be right, as he hasn't posted yet.  No, I've got lots of experience at this:  that first year of the first one is magic.  The moving out part is certainly on the list, though.  But now I've got grand kids, and that's even more fun.  Seeing them tomorrow.

[Hybrid]

We know from the relative scarcity of False Dragons that this is not the preferred option of channeling men, because of the rather low esteem AS are held in it's hard to see many being eager to throw themselves on the Tower's mercy, so try not to channel/go nuts is really the best option.

 

I forgot about this.  Also, it may not be too difficult for Joe Random Channeler to avoid channeling, since it is unlikely he will be in mortal danger as often as Rand was.  So I guess that would be the best option.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, you must be right, as he hasn't posted yet. No, I've got lots of experience at this: that first year of the first one is magic. The moving out part is certainly on the list, though. But now I've got grand kids, and that's even more fun. Seeing them tomorrow.

I very much doubt you have more experience than me, either with kids or grandkids (or great-grandkids and beyond for that matter). I'm like the Walder Frey of the board - the only Dragonmounter who can field an army out of his breeches. Although I think I've had more kids than he did. And the first year is generally good, provided you don't have to do the cleaning up afterwards.

[Luckers]

You wear breeches? You ARE old.

 

:)

[Sabio]

Highly unlikely if Demandred was Taim he would give Rand a seal to the Dark ones prison.  Think that also shows that Taim at the time hadn't even become a darkfriend yet.  I think he just went to Rand for protection then like Samuel and Demandred before him disliked having to take a back seat to the Dragon.

[Mr Ares]

You wear breeches? You ARE old.

 

:)

You mean you don't?!?!

[Ashaman Kovan]

"Breeches" being synonymous with pants. I assume at least. Hence most everyone wears them :)

[Mr Ares]

"Breeches" being synonymous with pants. I assume at least. Hence most everyone wears them :)

Not quite the same thing. I think this will explain further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeches

 

And Luckers may have taken up cross dressing.....

[Luckers]

Dude, it's a kilt. A KILT!!!

[Ashaman Kovan]

"Breeches" being synonymous with pants. I assume at least. Hence most everyone wears them :)

Not quite the same thing. I think this will explain further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeches

 

And Luckers may have taken up cross dressing.....

 

Ohhhh okay...So it's sort of like...Those capris pants ladies wear?....But for dudes? Hmmmmm