How great is ji'e'toh?

[RAND AL THOR]

If there were any justice in this world, there wouldn;t be a war in Sri Lanka.

[Mr Ares]

If there were any justice in this world, there wouldn't be a war in Sri Lanka.

If there was any justice, we'd still have the empire. That'd put you damn colonials in your place.

 

Those without a sense of honor will face justice as we all have in this day and age judicial systems.

The law has higher concerns than justice.

[RAND AL THOR]

If there were any justice in this world, there wouldn't be a war in Sri Lanka.

If there was any justice, we'd still have the empire. That'd put you damn colonials in your place.

 

This jerk needs to be kicked off this forum right away. I cannot believe that anyone would say such a thing in this world -and more importantly- in this forum.

 

[Mr Ares]

Learn to take a joke, AL THOR.

[RAND AL THOR]

Learn to take a joke, AL THOR.

 

From what I have seen of you on this forum, the term 'joke' has absolutely nothing to do with you.

 

I'm not going to bother with this any more. And I most certainly am going to ignore you hereafter on this forum. Better for us both without spoiling DM for us.

 

ttyl MR Ares.

[maximuswynn]

I didn't expect my thread to have THIS kind of impact!!!

[maximuswynn]

Oh and to all negative people, there is a constitutional law that states freedom of speech. Whoever deprives others from it should face that which I have been talkin' about...justice.

[Majsju]

Where religion however would promote specific beliefs, ji'e'toh would solidify our elations with our innate sense of honor and simply express it more often.

 

Religion is not only about prmoting specific beliefs, but also an attempt to codify morality, and also in a way, honour, since morality and honour kinda goes hand in hand.

And yet, look at all major religions in the world, they have all split into several branches because of people disagreeing about the definitions of a number of things, including morality, and thus, honour.

 

Look at the world today, we can not even make everyone agree on such a fundamental thing that it is wrong to kill other people. So what kind of "honour" could be considered acceptable on a global level then?

[maximuswynn]

It's an idea, but honor codes ARE diiferent than religions, they promote beliefs of Beings and other such. O fcourse they promote ways of life, that's only natural, but I'm talking about ethical values that should be to a point passed on through all means possible, adapted to our culture. I'm not saying it's completely doable, but simply necessary.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That gets back to the question of whether honorable and ethical are the same thing.

 

Are there exceptions? 

 

The "ethical thing" in warfare is to take your enemy unaware.  Inflict maximum casualties to him, and suffer none yourself.  But, is that honorable? 

 

Is it either ethical or honorable to face your enemy head on and expose yourself and your troops to maximum damage?

 

In business it's considered ethical to price your products and services such that you make a fair profit.  What's "fair?"

 

The first clause in the Hippocratic Oath is:  To do no harm.  Is bankrupting somebody to save their life not harming them?

 

It goes on and on.  First you've gotta create an ethical standard that applies universally.  That's just not possible.  Nothing covers all cases.

 

You've always got to remember, no matter how it looks to you, everybody is a good guy in their own eyes.

[Majsju]

It's an idea, but honor codes ARE diiferent than religions, they promote beliefs of Beings and other such. O fcourse they promote ways of life, that's only natural, but I'm talking about ethical values that should be to a point passed on through all means possible, adapted to our culture. I'm not saying it's completely doable, but simply necessary.

 

Mankind has managed quite well the past few thousand years without any codified, artificial "honour", and I think we stand even better prepared today to live without one.

 

And what exactly do you mean with "our culture"? Cultures are not only different between nations, you ave different cultures within a city.

[CUBAREY]

Mankind has managed quite well the past few thousand years without any codified, artificial "honour", and I think we stand even better prepared today to live without one.

 

 

Actually the Chivelric code fell apart in the 13-15th centuries. Also the Code of Bushido (Japan) lasted till the 1860's.  Also there may be a lot of us but that's because of the fact that we breed like rabbits not the inherent value of our present civilization. one thing stayed constabnt from the 13th to the 20th century. More people, more wars. The 21st will likely follow in that dismal line. Maybe its time to instigate "artificial" codes of honor. They may not help but surely they are not likely to hurt.

[Majsju]

The Chivelric (as well as the Chivalric) code only concerned a small, well defined group of people in a certain social setting. Same thing for Bushido (and Japan was basically completely closed to influences from the outside for the most part of when this was practised.) So we are not exactly talking about something that has been there on a larger scale.

All groups that exists for a longer period of time will form their own concept of "honour", that is a setting where it works. A group with a limited amount of members, and with similar attitudes towards life in general. Look at those you mentioned, we have groups were the mebers are people sharing social status, ethnical background, religion...

But on a larger scale, with a great diversity among the people? Not a chance.

 

And when I say that mankind has managed quite well, I am most certainly not talking about the growth of population, since that is something that should be on the negative account. I am talking about how society have survived, and moved on after things like the Roman empire, the dark ages, the inquisition etc. And we would never have done that if we had implemented the mental slavery of an artificial code of "honour".

 

You are correct about one thing though, today implementing such a thing would not be likely to hurt, since fortunatly very few people would pay any attention to it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

More people, more wars. The 21st will likely follow in that dismal line. Maybe its time to instigate "artificial" codes of honor. They may not help but surely they are not likely to hurt.

 

That's Fundamentalism.  At its base Fundamentalism holds that the state exists to further "The Cause" and the people exist to serve "The Cause."

 

Probably the worst sort of tyranny that there is.  Fundamentalists DO have Thought Police.  Thinking for yourself is a crime ( and heresy besides ) in a fundamentalist society.  There is no choice.  There is no interpretation.  You are told what to think and how to behave.  Either directly by "The Leader" of "The Cause", or indirectly by the state acting at "The Leader's" behest.

[maximuswynn]

Guys, I am not ignorant and know that it's next impossible to establish something like this, but I am trying to think out and ideal situation through which humanity could learn if for starters they "could" agree on one thing. But I SAY  could and not would because as we all know we will never do so. I am not thinking to promote the Thought Police, or anything such.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I can't name a certain person; such things don't need an example, they just are. 

Yes they do.

 

Otherwise I can make any statement I want.

 

Such as, Mat is a woman.

 

So, where's the evidence that any Aiel has ever thought that Ji e tho was, essentially, a waste of time and a little stupid?

 

And essentially that's irrelevent too. You'd need to demonstrate a large number of Aiel objecting to Ji e toh to prove any sort of point. A handful can be dismissed as freaks.

 

Furthermore, one could make the tentative arguement that the more pressure the Aiel are under, the further they retreat into their individual perception of Ji e toh. eg. Gaishain staying in white.

[maximuswynn]

Controversy, contro, controversy. Don't make something out of nothing. However, if one were to talk about ji'e'toh in the world of the Wheel, could they say that ji'e'toh was practical for all peoples? No, nobody could say that. I just wanted to find something ideal and this came to mind. Ji'e'toh is practical and to the point. However as I said it must adapt to where it is established.

[Majsju]

I find it very hard to find ji'e'toh being anything remotely close to ideal even in this fictional setting.

 

It does not stop the Aiel from fighting, on the contrary. They seem to have been fighting eachother since there were enough of them taking up the spears to form clans. They find it perfectly acceptable to raid their neighbours to steal livestock and other things. They trade slaves...

 

 

[maximuswynn]

As I said, adaptation, not transference per say.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The idea of a more ethical world is certainly appealing.

 

But adaptation requires a lot of working out of details.  That involves lawyers ( cuz that's what lawyers do ).

 

And, well, do I really need to say more?

[maximuswynn]

I want to be a lawyer/author. See where I'm coming from with this now?

[Bob T Dwarf]

A truly ethical society would first - Hang the Clergy - then - Hang the politicians - then - Hang the lawyers.

 

One of the few times Shakespeare got it wrong.

[maximuswynn]

I was never a fan of his. I've read all his works many times and they simply don't move me a bit and I read a lot!!!Of course I don't wanna sound mean or anything, I appreciate his work and all. Whatever. If everything was the way it should be and you know what I mean, I wouldn't have made this thread and have people at my neck, I actually got hate-mail.lolCrazy people taking into consideration my every word, have they no personal opinion?Jeez!lol

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aaahhhh, the "You must think and believe exactly as WE BELIEVE else you are a heretic and we shall stone you" brigade.

 

Tolja Fundamentalists have Thought Police.

[maximuswynn]

I am totally against the thought police and everything I said on this thread is simply ans strictly a suggestion, but mainly it is my opinion.