The Bodyswap Theory

[RobertAlexWillis]

Obviously its not the actual Warder bond.  Mike is right that I was suggesting that Moridin could have developed something similar, as in based on the same principles, using the True Power, but with an entirely different intent.  We do know that the True Power can be used to accomplish many of the same effects as the One Power, albeit through different methods (Travelling, Healing, Balefire, etc).  The only thing I was pointing out is that the Warder bond requires physical touching, and the Warder bond is a weave in which the minds and to some extent, bodies of those bonded are linked.  Rand and Moridin were touching, Moridin was using the True Power, and now Rand and Moridin are linked.  Not in exactly the same way, of course.  But its a set of coincidences, to be added to all the others I've mentioned.  There is a point at which a sufficient number of coincidences becomes a pattern.

 

As to the purpose of Moridin's balefire, it may have been purely defensive (Mashadar was falling on them after all), but it also would give Rand a reason for the intense pain he felt, even if the REAL source of the intense pain was whatever Moridin was doing to his head.  Being touched by the True Power has been invariably painful, for both people and the seemingly the Pattern itself (see Ishamael's "Healing" of Lews Therin in the prologue to TEoTW, and Moridin "Travelling" in ACoS ch 20)  Moridin would have known that if he did something to Rand with the TP, it was likely to be painful (for both of them, since it was a two way link).  Crossing the balefire streams gives Rand another reason for the unexplained pain, so that he doesn't turn on Moridin then and there.

 

Please understand, I'm NOT saying that these possible scenarios are by any means proven, far from it.  I'm just positing ways in which Moridin's actions could have been intentional, rather than accidental.  The bond between Rand and Moridin is bound to be significant ... it upsets my Machiavellian sensibilities for it to be just the result of an accident.

 

Are my Machiavellian sensibilities proof?  Of course not.  Do they make me a biased observer.  Sure do.  But then, we're all biased, aren't we?  ;D

[Roxinos]

But then, we're all biased, aren't we?  Grin

 

I'm not.

[Jethro]

I dont think they are bonded as Warders. I dont see any reason why it would create the clairaudience effect. I dont think Moridin did this on purpose; I always thought it was Rand being Ta'veren that caused it to happen. The one time Moridin appeared to Rand, something happened to make them permanently connected. The Dragon Reborn is now connected to the Nae'blis in a way which could potentially get Rand out of his half-crippled body before he fights the Great Lord. Coincedence? Not if you ask me.

 

My belief is that seeing as balefire burns the thread from the Pattern and whatnot, and because their balefires tried to undo the others, there was a certain point in time where the two balefire time undoing effects were still active but couldnt go back further because the other was trying to undo it. I think this caused Rands thread to come into contact with Moridins, resulting in a permanent link.

 

Couple of things I cant remember though. Did Rand see Moridins face every time he channeled after they were linked? Did he ever see it when he wasnt channeling?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I dont think Moridin did this on purpose; I always thought it was Rand being Ta'veren that caused it to happen. The one time Moridin appeared to Rand, something happened to make them permanently connected. The Dragon Reborn is now connected to the Nae'blis in a way which could potentially get Rand out of his half-crippled body before he fights the Great Lord. Coincedence? Not if you ask me

 

I don't personally care for that theory, it strikes me as too much Deus Ex Machina (which Jordan has specifically said ta'veren is not).  That said, I can see your argument.

 

My belief is that seeing as balefire burns the thread from the Pattern and whatnot, and because their balefires tried to undo the others, there was a certain point in time where the two balefire time undoing effects were still active but couldnt go back further because the other was trying to undo it. I think this caused Rands thread to come into contact with Moridins, resulting in a permanent link

 

See, thats what I've never understood ... how would a time canceling paradox cause a mental link?  The two are completely unrelated, as far as I can tell.

 

Couple of things I cant remember though. Did Rand see Moridins face every time he channeled after they were linked? Did he ever see it when he wasnt channeling?

 

Yes, sort of, and yes, definitely.  Rand first recalls seeing a blurry "third face" in his dreams along with himself and Lews Therin, in TPoD ch 21 (which is one of the first POVs we have of Rand after Shadar Logoth).  Rand experiences the nausea the very first time we see him channel after Shadar Logoth, in TPoD ch 13. 

 

Rand also sees Moridin's face in WH ch 22, while he is in Far Madding, and so was definitely not channeling.

 

Throwing more fuel on the fire, here, I feel obligated to point out that in Moridin's POV in the prologue of TPoD, immediately after the events of Shadar Logoth at the end of ACoS, Moridin is pondering the game of sha'rah, in which he is intentionally (not accidentally) manipulating the Fisher (an obvious symbol for Rand).  Also, in his very next POV, (TPoD ch 2, a scant two chapters later) he is pondering the ramifications of Warder Bonds and involuntary linking.  Just two more coincidences to add to my Machiavellian melting pot ... muahahahaha.

 

Anyone who is considering Moridin's actions, re-read his POV in that prologue (TPoD).  Its a good look into how Moridin thinks.  Lines like "The first object was to capture the Fisher.  Only then did the game truly begin."  and "in the greater game, al'Thor already moved to his wishes."  seem all the more suspicious in light of the timing.  And then there is the fact that he equates a failed strategy in sha'rah to his failure in the Stone, which he thinks of having done "in desperation".  In other words, his strategy of trying to kill Rand was a failed attempt at the "third path to victory" that is taken in sha'rah only after you have failed to seize control of the Fisher (Rand al'Thor).

 

Look at that section again, with what I've proposed in mind.  Keep in mind the timing (immediately following the events at Shadar Logoth).  Its all awfully suspicious.

[Nightstrike]

I don't personally care for that theory, it strikes me as too much Deus Ex Machina (which Jordan has specifically said ta'veren is not).  That said, I can see your argument.

The Wheel is an AI that makes choices. Don't know how much of the ta'veren effects that are determined through such "choices", but the fight between Light' champion and the Shadow's champion would seem pretty important to the Wheel. The whole story is invented and impossible things happen. This is fantasy, after all. More often than not, good things happen to the good guys and bad things happen to the bad guys (I for one wouldn't like to read a story where the opposite would be true). Too bad it's not like that in real life. I think RJ has written a story where impossible things (and improbable things) happen in way that can be explained by the "background" to the story.

 

And about the link between Moridin and Rand - we've already been handed a perfectly good explanation to how that link arose. Crossing Balefire streams (TP/OP). We've got no reason to invent a new weave. And, by the way, my previously mentioned objections still holds whether it is a new weave or the old warder bonding weave.

 

See, thats what I've never understood ... how would a time canceling paradox cause a mental link?  The two are completely unrelated, as far as I can tell.

I don't know if it was the time canceling paradox that caused it. Balefire burns threads away from the pattern from before they were woven. Two crossing like that (TP/OP) might well cause two threads to become linked into the future. RJ said that channeling OP anywhere near the DO's (source of TP) reach could have "unexpected" consequences. This incident sure had unexpected consequences. As expected.  :D   

 

Rand also sees Moridin's face in WH ch 22, while he is in Far Madding, and so was definitely not channeling.

Maybe Moridin was...

 

Throwing more fuel on the fire, here, I feel obligated to point out that in Moridin's POV in the prologue of TPoD, immediately after the events of Shadar Logoth at the end of ACoS, Moridin is pondering the game of sha'rah, in which he is intentionally (not accidentally) manipulating the Fisher (an obvious symbol for Rand).  Also, in his very next POV, (TPoD ch 2, a scant two chapters later) he is pondering the ramifications of Warder Bonds and involuntary linking.  Just two more coincidences to add to my Machiavellian melting pot ... muahahahaha.

Moridin is more than half mad and less than half human. Maybe he's not as much in control of Rand as he thinks. Even so, the effects that the BA has had over splitting the Tower, turning Rand against them and so on, is to be considered victories for the Shadow. I don't think he's using compulsion on Rand (that wasn't what you were suggesting, was it?). The so called "pondering the ramifications", was when he saw Aviendha unweaving the Gateway. He had reason to ponder about what these primitives can do. It had nothing to do with Rand al'Thor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Wheel is an AI that makes choices.

 

Sorry, I don't fully agree with that, either.  Remember, its Jordan, not me, that specifically stated that ta'veren is NOT Deus Ex Machina ... or, technically, that it is not an Old Tongue translation of the term.  The implication seems clear.  (http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=27)  The Wheel sometimes "acts" to correct events, but not in the sense of a personal, self-actualized artificial intelligence.

 

Two crossing like that (TP/OP) might well cause two threads to become linked into the future. RJ said that channeling OP anywhere near the DO's (source of TP) reach could have "unexpected" consequences.

 

Um, the balefire wasn't in contact with Rand and Moridin's "threads".  Balefire doesn't strike the wielder.  In Shadar Logoth, there were no "threads" burned out of the Pattern.  This would be an entirely new effect of balefire ... for which we have exactly zero indications elsewhere.

 

Maybe Moridin was...

 

Thats the implication, yes.  Were you making a point here?

 

Moridin is more than half mad and less than half human

 

And of course, the source of that statement, one Osan'gar, is a completely trustworthy and disinterested source himself.

::)

 

Besides, insanity is not always linked to a lack of control.  Many of history's most famous "mad" people were tightly in control of the circumstances around them.  Being "mad" doesn't always mean being a raving lunatic.  Moridin wholeheartedly supports someone who he believes wants to destroy time itself!  Of course he's insane!  That doesn't mean he's not capable of being in control.

 

I don't think he's using compulsion on Rand (that wasn't what you were suggesting, was it?)

 

Um, no ... what I've been suggesting all along is that he deliberately linked their souls in a completely unique way which will allow him to rip out or gain possession of Rand's soul, as he tried to do in the Stone of Tear, at an appropriate time ...

 

... are you actually reading my posts?  Compulsion appears absolutely nowhere in them.

 

The so called "pondering the ramifications", was when he saw Aviendha unweaving the Gateway. He had reason to ponder about what these primitives can do. It had nothing to do with Rand al'Thor.

 

I'm aware of the specific circumstances.  I'm also aware that the Wheel of Time is a work of literature, and authors often put certain information in a certain order to highlight connections.  Moridin seeing Aviendha unweaving a Gateway is not significant in the overall story, and Moridin mentally listing the other "modern" innovations (both of which have to do with mental influences) is completely unrelated to the specific circumstances.  So why did Jordan do it?  I know that a lot of people feel that Jordan includes lots of superfluous details in his writing, but only an insane writer does that, as it is extra work for no gain.  Jordan has specifically stated that he sometime drops interpretive clues after the fact (in this quote, regarding the murder of Asmodean http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=101 )  If he can do it for one incident, why not another?  Any ex post facto clues will, by their very nature, be unrelated to the immediate context, since they are clues regarding previous action.  The ruminations of Moridin, unconnected, or only tangentially connected, to the immediate circumstances, are prime candidates for that kind of clue.  The timing, and the repeated Moridin POVs (two in close proximity, immediately following his ONLY interaction with his most important opponent) is highly unusual, and therefore likely to be significant.

[Nightstrike]

The Wheel is an AI that makes choices.

 

Sorry, I don't fully agree with that, either.  Remember, its Jordan, not me, that specifically stated that ta'veren is NOT Deus Ex Machina ... or, technically, that it is not an Old Tongue translation of the term.  The implication seems clear. The Wheel sometimes "acts" to correct events, but not in the sense of a personal, self-actualized artificial intelligence.

Why would the wheel being an AI lead to the conclusion that ta'veren is any kind of Deus Ex Machina?

Dragoncon '05:

Q98: At the end of TGH, when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places. And my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something done by the Creator? How did they appear in the sky?

RJ: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn’t the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta’veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were False Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those False Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

RJ's blog:

The Wheel creates ta'veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren't born ta'veren. Can you imagine being around a ta'veren who is teething? <shudder> It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

 

 

 

Um, the balefire wasn't in contact with Rand and Moridin's "threads".  Balefire doesn't strike the wielder.  In Shadar Logoth, there were no "threads" burned out of the Pattern.  This would be an entirely new effect of balefire ... for which we have exactly zero indications elsewhere.

In the sense that they were giving rise to them, we have a connection. From wielder to wielder (working both ways). No one has crossed OP/TP Balefire streams before. No one has the same connection as them. Coincidence? No way.

 

 

Maybe Moridin was...

 

Thats the implication, yes.  Were you making a point here?

Just commenting. I had no point with it. Did you have any point with the "seizing of saidin" problem? Other than to comment on it, I mean.

 

 

Moridin is more than half mad and less than half human

 

And of course, the source of that statement, one Osan'gar, is a completely trustworthy and disinterested source himself.

::)

Using the True Power makes him go even crazier than he might have been originally.

 

 

I don't think he's using compulsion on Rand (that wasn't what you were suggesting, was it?)

 

Um, no ... what I've been suggesting all along is that he deliberately linked their souls in a completely unique way which will allow him to rip out or gain possession of Rand's soul, as he tried to do in the Stone of Tear, at an appropriate time ...

 

... are you actually reading my posts?  Compulsion appears absolutely nowhere in them.

No, you didn't mention compulsion. I asked because you claimed that Moridin's mention of "playing Rand" was to throw fuel to your ideas. Your ideas comprises the "modified warder bond". Which you say that Moridin weaved upon Rand, while Rand was channeling saidin for all that he was worth. This section is what I'm referring to:

Throwing more fuel on the fire, here, I feel obligated to point out that in Moridin's POV in the prologue of TPoD, immediately after the events of Shadar Logoth at the end of ACoS, Moridin is pondering the game of sha'rah, in which he is intentionally (not accidentally) manipulating the Fisher (an obvious symbol for Rand).  Also, in his very next POV, (TPoD ch 2, a scant two chapters later) he is pondering the ramifications of Warder Bonds and involuntary linking.  Just two more coincidences to add to my Machiavellian melting pot ... muahahahaha.

 

 

 

 

I'm also aware that the Wheel of Time is a work of literature, and authors often put certain information in a certain order to highlight connections.  Moridin seeing Aviendha unweaving a Gateway is not significant in the overall story, and Moridin mentally listing the other "modern" innovations (both of which have to do with mental influences) is completely unrelated to the specific circumstances.

 

Are they "unrelated"? Weaves and skills that the primitives can do, but the Age of Legenders could not - unrelated? Why would Moridin start to categorize them in any other way than that? He had reason to be shocked.

 

So why did Jordan do it?  I know that a lot of people feel that Jordan includes lots of superfluous details in his writing, but only an insane writer does that, as it is extra work for no gain.  Jordan has specifically stated that he sometime drops interpretive clues after the fact. If he can do it for one incident, why not another?  Any ex post facto clues will, by their very nature, be unrelated to the immediate context, since they are clues regarding previous action.  The ruminations of Moridin, unconnected, or only tangentially connected, to the immediate circumstances, are prime candidates for that kind of clue.  The timing, and the repeated Moridin POVs (two in close proximity, immediately following his ONLY interaction with his most important opponent) is highly unusual, and therefore likely to be significant.

He mentioned several different things that the primitives could do, and you picked one. Claiming that that particular one holds any special significance. The bond between Rand and Moridin is completely different than any warder bond we've ever encountered. Why would the warder bond hold any significance to this link? The thing Moridin thought about the warder bond was that he had known about it for a long time. But those that he heard about it from were all women. So, how would he have been able to "modified" anything of theirs? Men and women use different weaves for the same thing. Not every thought, every comment and every description holds the answer to some unsolved problem. This DOES NOT in any way whatsoever mean that he wasted ink with writing them. That being said, I think it was rather interesting to know what the Age of Legenders can and cannot do. It might be something that will be used in the last couple of books, but it won't be used in the way you suggest. Aviendha picking apart weaves would be an useful skill during the last battle, especially if they are chased. Now we know that the Forsaken can't use the same method. All relevant to the story and fun to read about.

 

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why would the wheel being an AI lead to the conclusion that ta'veren is any kind of Deus Ex Machina?

 

Because of what the phrase Deus Ex Machina stands for.  Deus Ex Machina is, in literary terms, a plot device in which a highly unusual or unique and unlikely event occurs, without any discernible reason in the plot other than the resolution of the plot.  That describes PRECISELY the circumstance proposed by Jethro, to which I responded, in which Rand's sole means of eventual escape from his body is provided by a one time, completely unique accident. 

 

As to your exposition from the Jordan blog to which I provided the link ... you'll notice that Jordan put the word "sees" in quotation marks, because he was describing a concept for which there is no linguistic equivalent in our current language.  The Pattern doesn't see the same way we do, or Jordan would not have used that literary technique.  Jordan describes a mechanism, not a consciousness, which creates favorable circumstances by spinning the appropriate threads into the Pattern, not by exercising conscious control over specific events.  The Wheel is not a simple mechanism ... not is it a sentient intelligence.  It is a highly complex mechanism, which reacts to contingencies.

 

By the way, I can read normal point fonts, thank you.

 

In the sense that they were giving rise to them, we have a connection. From wielder to wielder (working both ways). No one has crossed OP/TP Balefire streams before. No one has the same connection as them. Coincidence? No way.

 

Um, how do you know that no one has ever crossed OP/TP balefire streams before?  Both sides used balefire in the War of the Power, and the TP was used enough that Lews Therin knew about it.

 

But all that is beside the point.  You're exhibiting a classic logical fallacy, entitled "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc".  You're assuming that because the events happened in sequence, that one caused the other, even though there is NOTHING in the nature of the individual events that even suggests a relationship in effect.  This is the same type of logic which led to the belief that dirty shirts in tubs of wheat led to the spontaneous generation of rats.

 

Are they "unrelated"? Weaves and skills that the primitives can do, but the Age of Legenders could not - unrelated? Why would Moridin start to categorize them in any other way than that? He had reason to be shocked.

 

You're missing the point.  Of course they were related in the sense that you name.  But they are unrelated TO THE PLOT OF STORY AT THAT POINT.  There is every reason for Moridin to think about them in that circumstance.  But there is no reason for Jordan to choose to write out those thoughts at that point.  Jordan does not show us every thought that Moridin has, in fact, we get very few POVs with Moridin at all.  Why would Jordan waste that space to have a character list information that we already know, and that we already know that HE knows?

 

The timing and placement of information that is not necessarily related to the PLOT at one point in the story is often a way that an author will provide subtle clues about other events in a story.  Jordan does this very frequently.

 

Using the True Power makes him go even crazier than he might have been originally.

 

Of course using the True Power made him go crazy.  That doesn't mean he's out of control.

 

No, you didn't mention compulsion. I asked because you claimed that Moridin's mention of "playing Rand" was to throw fuel to your ideas. Your ideas comprises the "modified warder bond". Which you say that Moridin weaved upon Rand, while Rand was channeling saidin for all that he was worth.

 

Your point being that Compulsion doesn't work on men who are holding the Source.  Good thing I didn't propose that Moridin was using Compulsion.  Moriding isn't controlling Rand DIRECTLY.  He's MANIPULATING Rand.  Big difference, and one unaffected by holding the Power.  And "manipulating" just happens to be the exact word I used.

 

He mentioned several different things that the primitives could do, and you picked one. Claiming that that particular one holds any special significance

 

He named three other than unweaving (Healing severing, involuntary linking, and the Warder Bond) .  I mentioned the TWO which were unrelated to the PLOT at that point in the STORY, but in fact, all three are related to OTHER events in the story that were, at that time, not fully explained. (Healing severing is related to how Cyndane could be Lanfear transmigrated but be weaker in the Power, and both of the others could be related to the events in Shadar Logoth).  The point is that all three were not important to what was going on in the courtyard.  Jordan could have had Moridin just think "Another impossibility casually offered up by these [primitives]" as he did later in the narrative, and left it at that.  A list of things we ALREADY KNEW ABOUT served no purpose in that narrative, unless Jordan wanted to draw our attention to those things, for a particular reason.

 

Look, this runs the risk of sounding pompous, but I actually do know what I'm talking about in this instance.  I've studied literary criticism and literary theory and this is a CLASSIC literary device.  Its a way for the author to provide information without awkwardly hitting the reader over the head with it.

 

The bond between Rand and Moridin is completely different than any warder bond we've ever encountered. Why would the warder bond hold any significance to this link?

 

Because the Warder bond is the ONLY other two way mental bond of any kind that we know about.

 

The thing Moridin thought about the warder bond was that he had known about it for a long time. But those that he heard about it from were all women. So, how would he have been able to "modified" anything of theirs? Men and women use different weaves for the same thing.

 

Moridin was educated in the Age of Legends, when men and women regularly worked together, linked, and could see and feel one another's weaves.  Moridin is more likely than ANYONE to be able to understand and modify a female weave to a male adaptation, and also more likely to be able to adapt a One Power weave to a True Power adaptation.  He is UNIQUELY qualified to do this, because of his long experience with both male and female weaving, and the One and True Power.

 

That being said, I think it was rather interesting to know what the Age of Legenders can and cannot do. It might be something that will be used in the last couple of books, but it won't be used in the way you suggest. Aviendha picking apart weaves would be an useful skill during the last battle, especially if they are chased. Now we know that the Forsaken can't use the same method. All relevant to the story and fun to read about.

 

It WAS very interesting to learn that the Age of Legenders did not know how to unweave.  But learning that had nothing to do with a list of the other things that we ALREADY KNEW were unknown in the Age of Legends.  If Jordan had simply removed that entire list from the narrative, we would not have known any less about what Age of Legenders could or could not do.

 

And Aviendha would be a moron to use this technique in the last battle.  Or did you not notice what happened when Elayne tried to use it in a pursuit situation?  If she just wants to discourage pursuit, there are much more effective and SAFER weaves.

 

All this said, this conversation is devolving into the kind of spiteful back and forth that I very much dislike.  So, I'm not going to participate anymore.  We disagree, and thats the end of it.

[Nightstrike]

As to your exposition from the Jordan blog to which I provided the link ... you'll notice that Jordan put the word "sees" in quotation marks, because he was describing a concept for which there is no linguistic equivalent in our current language.  The Pattern doesn't see the same way we do, or Jordan would not have used that literary technique.  Jordan describes a mechanism, not a consciousness, which creates favorable circumstances by spinning the appropriate threads into the Pattern, not by exercising conscious control over specific events.  The Wheel is not a simple mechanism ... not is it a sentient intelligence.  It is a highly complex mechanism, which reacts to contingencies.

I didn't say that it was a consciousness. This is what I said, when you objected:

The Wheel is an AI that makes choices.

 

 

 

You're exhibiting a classic logical fallacy, entitled "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc".  You're assuming that because the events happened in sequence, that one caused the other, even though there is NOTHING in the nature of the individual events that even suggests a relationship in effect.  This is the same type of logic which led to the belief that dirty shirts in tubs of wheat led to the spontaneous generation of rats.

I've already explained why crossing streams would be expected to yield the unexpected. It isn't in line with Occam's Razor to invent such things as you invented, when it probably isn't even possible to do the things you suggest.

 

 

 

Your point being that Compulsion doesn't work on men who are holding the Source.  Good thing I didn't propose that Moridin was using Compulsion.  Moriding isn't controlling Rand DIRECTLY.  He's MANIPULATING Rand.  Big difference, and one unaffected by holding the Power.  And "manipulating" just happens to be the exact word I used.

OK, so how exactly would that "manipulating" be to "throw more fuel" to your ideas? Your ideas and my ideas (and probably some other people's ideas) works equally fine with the "Moridin manipulating Rand" concept.

 

 

He named three other than unweaving (Healing severing, involuntary linking, and the Warder Bond) .  I mentioned the TWO which were unrelated to the PLOT at that point in the STORY, but in fact, all three are related to OTHER events in the story that were, at that time, not fully explained. (Healing severing is related to how Cyndane could be Lanfear transmigrated but be weaker in the Power, and both of the others could be related to the events in Shadar Logoth).

Of course they are related to things happening in the books. Lots of channelers in the books. The "involuntary linking" part is the a'dam, and thus it wasn't related to the events in Shadar Logoth. The warder bond isn't related to the events in Shadar Logoth. Healing severing isn't related to the events in Shadar Logoth. Unweaving isn't related to the events in Shadar Logoth. A little later in the very same chapter, Moridin was thinking about how much more skilled the primitives are with manipulating weather than the Age of Legenders. Manipulating weather isn't related to the events in Shadar Logoth.

 

 

 

 

And Aviendha would be a moron to use this technique in the last battle.  Or did you not notice what happened when Elayne tried to use it in a pursuit situation?  If she just wants to discourage pursuit, there are much more effective and SAFER weaves.

It was Elayne that couldn't take apart her weave. Aviendha is skilled at Unweaving.

 

 

All this said, this conversation is devolving into the kind of spiteful back and forth that I very much dislike.  So, I'm not going to participate anymore.  We disagree, and thats the end of it.

Yes, we disagree.

 

 

 

[Jethro]

See, thats what I've never understood ... how would a time canceling paradox cause a mental link?  The two are completely unrelated, as far as I can tell.

 

I dont think its a mind link, but a connection of their thread in the Pattern. A connection made because balefire produced by both men tried to undo something done by each other, trying to undo the action that would undo their own action. I can understand why the connection is made; the Pattern couldnt decide which way to go (Rands, or Moridins) and so it went both ways, causing their thread to touch. My belief is that if Moridin had used Saidin they would still see each others faces. Thats my theory, of course it could be wrong though.

 

Regarding the comments on Moridin, the Fisher, and the connection. The passage does indeed show that Moridin plans to manipulate Rand. However, I dont think this reflects on the creation of their link. If you ask me, Moridin manipulated Rand in Shadar Logoth by helping him out of that hole so he could kill Sammael. Yet, on the off chance, something-Mashadar-caused Moridin to delay leaving for a moment and channel, and suddenly the balefires cross. The only time Moridin has seen Rand as Moridin, and he walks away permanently connected to him. It screams of Ta'veren to me. Deus Ex Machina didnt come into it at all.

[rhadamanthus]

The bold print is mine, of course. It then goes on to describe how Graendal turned towards Verin, and even though Verin could not see the flows that Graendal wove, she knew that she was channeling, and that she had just entered a fight for her life with one of the Forsaken. Perhaps it isn't conclusive, but it seems to be strong evidence that simply holding the Source makes it more difficult to be shielded.

 

Further reinforced by Elayne's point of view in PoD when the damane shields her as she flees the half-undone gateway.  She specifically states that the shield should not have been strong enough since she was so much stronger than the damane.  It only worked because she was weak from the work with the bowl.

 

I like RAW's theory - it makes sense to a certain extent.  Certainly, we know that if Moridin's ultimate goal is the end of the wheel, the end of time, the permanent LOSS of the dragon is paramount.  The dragon is perpetually the wheel's savior.  Severing him from the wheel forever would therefore imply a serious breakdown in the wheel's defenses.  Furthermore, the argument that drawing the source limits the "soul grab" maneuver due to a heightened "bond" with the pattern seems.... elegant.  If nothing else, it fits in nicely with the more attuned sensations (smell, sight, etc).

[Jethro]

I like RAW's theory - it makes sense to a certain extent.  Certainly, we know that if Moridin's ultimate goal is the end of the wheel, the end of time, the permanent LOSS of the dragon is paramount.  The dragon is perpetually the wheel's savior.  Severing him from the wheel forever would therefore imply a serious breakdown in the wheel's defenses.

 

Moridins personal goal is the end of the war if you ask me, not the destruction of everything. Ishamael went over because he believed that all it took was for the Shadow to win once and it would be eternal victory, and eventually they would win that one time. If the Light win, time continues in the circular format meaning the war will come again. The only way to stop it, Ishamael believed, is for the Shadow to win, break the Wheel and stop time from repeating itself again.

 

Im still not buying the idea of Moridins or even the Great Lords objective being the destruction of everything. My belief is that the Great Lord wants the world for himself, with a complete absence of the Light, but not an absence of existence. Just because he is the Devil figure, the nemesis of the Creator, it doesnt mean his objectives are 100% opposite.

[Roxinos]

Well, no one suggested that the Great Lord's ultimate objective is simply the destruction of everything. Most agree that the Great Lord is out to destroy the Wheel so he can weave the Pattern as he wills.

[Alghar Khan]

Ba'alzamon said that he would strangle Rand with the corpse of the great serpent. That's a symbol for time if I remember correctly. Didn't he also say something about how the destruction of the wheel would give him power or something like that. Seems like he thought that the destruction of time was to be expected. Robert Jordan said that the dark one didn't care enough about his followers to care about punishing them. So why would he care about anyone else? I think the dark one would find it very satisfying to smash the wheel once and for all. Not to be king over the puny humans. His enemy is the Creator.

[Roxinos]

Robert Jordan said that the dark one didn't care enough about his followers to care about punishing them.

 

I'd very much like a source for that, 'cause I'm quite sure you're misreading a quote.

 

Didn't he also say something about how the destruction of the wheel would give him power or something like that.

 

Yep. Power over Time. If the Wheel is destroyed, the Great Lord is free to weave the Age Lace as he wills.

 

I'm not saying it's not impossible that the Great Lord will just destroy the Wheel and be done with it, but it's not likely.

[Jethro]

Well, no one suggested that the Great Lord's ultimate objective is simply the destruction of everything. Most agree that the Great Lord is out to destroy the Wheel so he can weave the Pattern as he wills.

 

Thats what I think, but it was said that Moridins goal might be the end of time. I think his goal is the end of circular time, not time altogether. If Shaitan broke the Wheel time would change to linear and that, if the Wheel was destroyed, the only instant differences would be that there would be no more spun out heroes, Ta'veren or Dragon incarnations. This would mark the beginning of the end of the Light, since the Shadow would then be able to plan further ahead knowing that fate, time and reality didnt work against them. If Rand had never been Ta'veren, think of what might have happened by now. Rahvin would have full control over Andor, Sammael would have Illian, Bel'al would have Tear, Asmodean would have made Couladin wage war on the entire Wetlands, Semirhage would still be free to carry on manipulating the Seanchan, Aginor and Balthamel would have done whatever it is they wanted to do with the Eye, and so on. So, if Shaitan broke the Wheel, he would have all the time in the world to snuff out the Light, since there would be no more world-savers born destined to defeat him.

[Roxinos]

If Shaitan broke the Wheel time would change to linear and that, if the Wheel was destroyed, the only instant differences would be that there would be no more spun out heroes, Ta'veren or Dragon incarnations.

 

What evidence do you have to suggest that? By all accounts that I can recall, the destruction of the Wheel means the End of Time because there is nothing to weave the Pattern. Not just the end of circular time and those other goodies.

[Alghar Khan]

Robert Jordan said that the dark one didn't care enough about his followers to care about punishing them.

 

I'd very much like a source for that, 'cause I'm quite sure you're misreading a quote.

This is from tor question of the week

Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

 

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

 

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

 

In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.

 

What evidence do you have to suggest that? By all accounts that I can recall, the destruction of the Wheel means the End of Time because there is nothing to weave the Pattern. Not just the end of circular time and those other goodies.

Yes, I think the dark one wants to end time. Period.

[rhadamanthus]

If Shaitan broke the Wheel time would change to linear and that, if the Wheel was destroyed, the only instant differences would be that there would be no more spun out heroes, Ta'veren or Dragon incarnations.

 

What evidence do you have to suggest that? By all accounts that I can recall, the destruction of the Wheel means the End of Time because there is nothing to weave the Pattern. Not just the end of circular time and those other goodies.

 

Exactly.  Moridin's goal (if it is his goal) to end the war (courtesy of Jethro) would be achieved by effectively ending time.  So while the goal may not be as brutal as destorying everything, he would indirectly cause that regardless.

[Roxinos]

Interesting quote, but I'll note that this does not indicate necessarily that he doesn't care about humanity in general, but rather, he finds no need to invest too much time in punishing those who serve under him because he has bigger fish to fry. This also works only for the "minions" (those who are of decidedly unimportant stature) rather than anyone.

 

But I certainly see the point you make.

 

Yes, I think the dark one wants to end time. Period.

 

Don't see why you quoted that bit to say this. What you quoted was me asking why Jethro believes the destruction of the Wheel of Time would only end circular time rather than time in general.

 

Exactly.  Moridin's goal (if it is his goal) to end the war (courtesy of Jethro) would be achieved by effectively ending time.

 

See what I said above in response to Alghar Khan.

[rhadamanthus]

If we are postulating that letting the dark one weave the age lace is not a "bad thing" as in "allowing the shadow to run rampant over everything forever", than I'd be hard pressed to not sympathize with moridin's point of view.

 

Moridin's point of view is evil in that the only way to end the cycle is to destroy everything non-shadow.  That would, for all intents and purposes, end time.

[Alghar Khan]

Interesting quote, but I'll note that this does not indicate necessarily that he doesn't care about humanity in general, but rather, he finds no need to invest too much time in punishing those who serve under him because he has bigger fish to fry. This also works only for the "minions" (those who are of decidedly unimportant stature) rather than anyone.

I disagree. All are of decidedly unimportant stature to him. He is the evil counterpart to the Creator. Infinitly more "important" than any puny human. Death and destruction to everything the Creator has ever made. That's what the dark one stands for. Humans are not even worthy as entertainment. Insignificant as they are.

The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation.

 

 

 

Yes, I think the dark one wants to end time. Period.

 

Don't see why you quoted that bit to say this. What you quoted was me asking why Jethro believes the destruction of the Wheel of Time would only end circular time rather than time in general.

Because Ba'alzamon obviously want to crush the wheel (when he pretends to be the dark one in front of Rand). And to slay the great serpent. End to creation. Ultimate destruction of everything. That's want he wants really really much

 

 

 

 

[Jethro]

I was stating my belief, not a fact. Dont misinterpret it because I didnt put "I think" in that particular sentence.

 

By all accounts that I can recall, the destruction of the Wheel means the End of Time because there is nothing to weave the Pattern

 

By all Third Ager accounts, the end of the Wheel is the end of time. According to AoLers, who know a hell of a lot more about this type of thing, the Great Lord would destroy the Wheel and then manipulate the Age lace himself. If he couldnt do this, why do the AoLers, the clever ones, think he can?

 

Moridin's point of view is evil in that the only way to end the cycle is to destroy everything non-shadow.  That would, for all intents and purposes, end time.

 

Technically not, since time would still exist for the Shadow, but without the Wheel to guide it. As in, the future is not set anymore, and no more people "destined" to save the world. If the Wheel was destroyed, I BELIEVE that there would be no cicular symbol of time, no more respawning or history repeating itself.

[rhadamanthus]

Technically not, since time would still exist for the Shadow, but without the Wheel to guide it. As in, the future is not set anymore, and no more people "destined" to save the world. If the Wheel was destroyed, I BELIEVE that there would be no cicular symbol of time, no more respawning or history repeating itself.

 

Assuming that most people in Randland, as well as the avid readers involved, would find the complete loss of anyone not aligned with the dark one a much worse fate than being stuck in the wheel, we are arguing mere symantics.  If someone came along and annihalated everything on earth but cockroaches, it may not technically constitute the end of the world, but humanity certainly would not care about the distinction. 

[MikeRiley]

He mentioned several different things that the primitives could do, and you picked one. Claiming that that particular one holds any special significance. The bond between Rand and Moridin is completely different than any warder bond we've ever encountered. Why would the warder bond hold any significance to this link? The thing Moridin thought about the warder bond was that he had known about it for a long time. But those that he heard about it from were all women. So, how would he have been able to "modified" anything of theirs? Men and women use different weaves for the same thing.

 

Moridin knew of the link. He knows a lot about the power. When the Aes Sedai watched Nynaeve Heal Siuan and Leane they all cluster around each other and start discussing what different flows in their Healing weaves might do for the weave, how some things might help more for one thing, while others will help another. They had to know what one does better than others.. sort of like ingredients in a recipe. Moridin would have needed to know what the warder bond was like, how it worked and he could have figured it out himself or came up with one similar, if he sat down over a nice friendly game with himself and thought it out.