All 3 Ta'vern shielded from compulsion??

[balefire]

I was just wondering whether it was robert jordan's plan all along to shield rand, mat and perrin from compulsion or am i looking too much into things. Rand is protected from compulsion because of his ability to channel Saidin, so long as he holds it, he cannot be compelled. Similarly, so long as Mat wears the foxhead ter'angreal, compulsion won't work since its a direct weave. And although we haven't seen it in action, i think there's a high chance Perrin can't be compelled due to his link with the wolves. I imagine something like Perrin being compelled for a very short time, but breaking free as soon as the wolves make contact with his mind. I have no evidence for this except for the fact that Saidin spirit weave protects Rand from the forsaken manipulated dreams, the ter'angreal for mat's dreams and the wolves for perrin's dreams, so i think they also protect him from compulsion.

 

Now i know these protections have loopholes. Rand can be compelled if he's not holding Saidin, and Mat if he's not wearing the ter'angreal, but the thing is, if one of the forsaken is near enough to rand (while not holding saidin) or mat (without the ter'angreal), with the intention of a direct weave (compulsion) attack, i doubt he/she would use compulsion. Probably balefire or some other weave. Now the thing is, the chance of Rand/Mat/Perrin facing an attacking forsaken without Saidin/ter'angreal/wolves is very low, since as i mentioned earlier, if they are, compulsion would be probably be the last weave that forsaken would want to use. So, in a way, they are protected from compulsion, or maybe i'm looking too much into things. What do you guys think?

[Aztain]

When has Rand ever been threatened by compulsion?

I know of the time when Alanna first Bonded him ( she later admitted to trying to compell him and it not working) but other then that I dont think he's been threatend by it, besides Aes Sedai are forbidden from using compulsion and they even think using a warders bond to compell is bad...well at least it supposedly isn't used any more......I may be mistaken but I think your just making to much out of it

[Asmo]

Not too much, but it's sort of obvious. I mean it would be pretty anti-climactic if Graendal went over to Rand and went all "Obey the Great Lord of the Dark", and Rand was like, "Yes."

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

your logic is weak... and circular?

 

you're saying that if any of the Big 3 were approached by a forsaken, they wouldn't use compulsion, NOT because they have protection against compulsion, but because they would prefer a killing weave.  this is another way of saying that the forsaken would never choose to use compulsion in any event.  therefore, rand and co.'s protection has no effect on whether they get compelled or not.

 

 

i apologize in advance if i misinterpreted your post, but honestly, very circular-seeming logic in play there.

[Asmo]

He just meant that Rand, Perrin and Mat, even though they have little in common aside from being ta'veren, each have a radically different way of resisting Compulsion. As for the chances that the Forsaken try to use it against them, well, they certainly wouldn't try to use it on Rand since it's pointless, but Perrin is a likely candidate, in which case it should be interesting to see how it turns out. As for Mat, any direct offensive weave wouldn't work, so I expect him to be the one to put a spear in Demandred's ribs.

 

"TAKE THIS, YOU BASTARD, FOR MAKING US ALL THINK YOU ARE TAIM."

[balefire]

asmo was spot on, thats what i meant. I'm not trying to theorize a forsaken mode of attack, just curious about the way ta'vern were protected. For some reason, i believe that the wolves protect perrin from compulsion in some form.

 

Sorry, if i was vague.

[MatrixM]

When Alanna failed to Compel Rand, i thought that it was because Rand was unlike the normal Warder, being able to channel and all. Compelling through a bond is different then actual Compulsion. Only a few who aren't Forsaken know how to use Compulsion properly. Liandrin touched on it but then was shown the right way to do it by Moghedien and couldn't follow the weave. So, just because the Warder bond couldn't control Rand, doesn't mean that he is invulnerable to actual Compulsion. The only one of the 3 that would be is Mat.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

as the aes sedai describe it, the warder bond's method of compulsion IS Compulsion.  keep in mind, this is what AES SEDAI believe..we all know how they are always correct in things like this...

 

anyhow, warder compulsion doesn't work on channelers(male ones in any case).

 

 

so, rand is impervious to warder compulsion at all times and is impervious to Compulsion when holding saidin.

[MatrixM]

How do we know that he is impervious to Compulsion when holding Saidin?

[balefire]

Because Sammael told us in in one of his meetings with Graendal in book 6 or 7. He was thinking on Graendal's compulsion zombies and his comment went something like this, "but of course her compulsion wont work on me, or any man wrapped in the source". This isn't the exact quote, but that's what i remember. And it makes sense, the chaotic nature of saidin and the constant struggle of control makes even a moment's weakness is a potential deeath. And since compulsion does exactly death, its not possible to compel a man holding Saidin.

[MatrixM]

Interesting. So Mat can't be Compelled as he never parts with his medallion (does that work on men as well? Because Rahvin did take him out), all men who can channel cannot be compelled through a Warder bond or at all when holding Saidin and Perrin might be impervious to it because of the whole wolves thing. And chances are Mat and Perrin won't be attacked with Compulsion since they have a death mark on them. Actually, it might be tried to get information.

[Luckers]

Because Sammael told us in in one of his meetings with Graendal in book 6 or 7. He was thinking on Graendal's compulsion zombies and his comment went something like this, "but of course her compulsion wont work on me, or any man wrapped in the source". This isn't the exact quote, but that's what i remember. And it makes sense, the chaotic nature of saidin and the constant struggle of control makes even a moment's weakness is a potential deeath. And since compulsion does exactly death, its not possible to compel a man holding Saidin.

 

I've always ascribed to that idea--either that the mindset of a man fighting for control with saidin is too strong to be controlled or subverted, or that the chaos of saidin itself is so turbulent to influence. Either way the reverse is not true for women--we've seen women holding saidar compelled.

 

Oh, and the exact quote was, following a diatribe about compulsion, 'he held onto the source. Such tricks did not work on a man wrapped in saidin.'

 

anyhow, warder compulsion doesn't work on channelers(male ones in any case).

 

 

so, rand is impervious to warder compulsion at all times and is impervious to Compulsion when holding saidin.

 

That's not true. Rand could be compelled by the bond were he not holding saidin--it's just Alanna never thought to try again. It is only when a man is holding saidin that he is immune.

 

Compelling through a bond is different then actual Compulsion.

 

That's also not true--the effect is exactly the same, you can use it subtly to manipulate them without them knowing, or you can use it like a hammerblow to control them completely, but then they are aware of it.

 

It's compulsion, the Aes Sedai just dance around it because of the bond. And some don't do that either, Moiraine reveals that she feels that that is abhorent

[MatrixM]

I assumed it was different because the weave is different. So you're saying that the bonded Asha'man could be compelled? For some reason i don't like that.

[Mr Ares]

Interesting. So Mat can't be Compelled as he never parts with his medallion (does that work on men as well? Because Rahvin did take him out)

Yes, it works on men - Halima channels at him in LoC. Rahvin didn't hit him with saidin, he used saidin to create and aim the lightning, and it was the lightning that hit him. We see similar when saidar can't hit Mat, but you can use saidar to throw a rock at him and his medallion doesn't protect against rocks.

[Luckers]

I assumed it was different because the weave is different. So you're saying that the bonded Asha'man could be compelled? For some reason i don't like that.

 

Indeed--provided they arn't holding saidin.