Religion in Randland

[Luckers]

Thats empty rhetoric, and completely unproven.

[RAND AL THOR]

If the DO can create, then why didn't he make something to smash out of his prison? ;D

[CUBAREY]

Thats empty rhetoric, and completely unproven.

 

We are talking about to ultra-human characters in a fantasy series. Except for what has been explicitely discolsed about the characters in the novels or in RJ's comments we cannot "prove" anything about them, they are fictional characters.

 

That being the case, my analogy is I think a pretty good one.  The Creator "painted" the world, saw it as a complete work and went on to "paint" different worlds. The DO unhappy with the world as "painted by the Creator continues to critize elements within it and attempts to change it to fit his own sensibilities. Thus an Attest and a Critic.

[Mr Ares]

Bah. True men enjoy being stabbed.

Yes, we do. But you're hardly a true man, are you? You're an Aussie.

[Luckers]

Dude, have you seen what we call knives?

 

We are talking about to ultra-human characters in a fantasy series. Except for what has been explicitely discolsed about the characters in the novels or in RJ's comments we cannot "prove" anything about them, they are fictional characters.

 

That being the case, my analogy is I think a pretty good one.  The Creator "painted" the world, saw it as a complete work and went on to "paint" different worlds. The DO unhappy with the world as "painted by the Creator continues to critize elements within it and attempts to change it to fit his own sensibilities. Thus an Attest and a Critic.

 

We know the Dark One's energies can be used to create, they created the Shadowspawn--in particular, Shaidar Haren. Created completely by the Dark One.

 

Beyond which, again, this idea does not support the idea that the Dark One is weaker--Shai'tan is heardly sitting around writing scathing criticisms--'what the sequals to the matrix did to the movie industry, so did the creation of the wheel do to reality...'

 

At the core of your point you were trying to suggest that the Dark One is to some degree weaker than the Creator, and you have not done that. That the Creator made the wheel, and that the Dark One dislikes it, we know. Your attempt to castetype them as 'struggling brilliant artist' and 'bitter, impotent critic' is completely without support--and thus i do stand by my statement that it is empty rhetoric, and completely unsupported.

 

If the DO can create, then why didn't he make something to smash out of his prison?

 

I can create things, doesn't mean i'd be capable of creating something to smash down a wall without any resources. Beyond which the Dark One is not really in a prison, is he? The Creator created reality as a circle, excluding the Dark One. He is the barbarians at the gate, but nevertheless he's not really imprisoned.

[Mr Ares]

Dude, have you seen what we call knives?

Yes. I wasn't very impressed.

[CUBAREY]

At the core of your point you were trying to suggest that the Dark One is to some degree weaker than the Creator, and you have not done that. That the Creator made the wheel, and that the Dark One dislikes it, we know. Your attempt to castetype them as 'struggling brilliant artist' and 'bitter, impotent critic' is completely without support--and thus i do stand by my statement that it is empty rhetoric, and completely unsupported.

 

Critics are anything but impotent as any play-write whose creation has been reviewed by the New York Times Critic can attest to. Second, the fact that in all eternity the DO has never been able to "break out" of his prison (more correctly break into reality) is some evidence that he is inferior to the Creator who barred him from reality.

 

And the Shadowspawn were not created by the DO we are told that the Trollics, et. al., were "created5" by one of the Choosen.

 

Again, true my analogy is unproven, but so are your assertions, as I said the Creator and DO are characters in a fantasy series for which we have limited information on. At best barring a statement from RJ or now Brandon all we can do is make plausible hypothesis.

[Luckers]

Yes. I wasn't very impressed.

 

Really? Then imagine what we name swords.

 

Critics are anything but impotent as any play-write whose creation has been reviewed by the New York Times Critic can attest to. Second, the fact that in all eternity the DO has never been able to "break out" of his prison (more correctly break into reality) is some evidence that he is inferior to the Creator who barred him from reality.

 

1. New York Times criticism... really? Scathing assessment can be painful, but in terms of actual effect?

 

2. Incorrect. History is littered with vastly superior forces being unable to defeat forces how hold a superior defensive position. The Creator made himself a fort, that doesn't indicate any judgement about their comparitave strengths--indeed, if anything it implies the Creator feels he is weaker, that he could not win in a face to face fight. People build walls to make their position stronger, to protect themselves from an enemy they fear.

 

The Dark One, therefore, is an enemy the Creator fears.

 

And the Shadowspawn were not created by the DO we are told that the Trollics, et. al., were "created5" by one of the Choosen.

 

They were created with the use of the True Power, the power of the Dark One, ergo the Dark One's power can create--which is exactly what i said.

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Luckers, what's open to debate regarding the last is whether the DO can create, or only corrupt.

[CUBAREY]

1. New York Times criticism... really? Scathing assessment can be painful, but in terms of actual effect?

 

 

A bad Review by the New York Times Theatre critic has often killed an off-Broadway Play and even some smaller Broadway plays. In the New York theatre world the New York Times critc may not effect the financial viability of a big Broadway Musical but it can (and often has) affected the financial viability of smaller plays.

 

[iThe Creator made himself a fort, that doesn't indicate any judgement about their comparitave strengths--indeed, if anything it implies the Creator feels he is weaker, that he could not win in a face to face fight. People build walls to make their position stronger, to protect themselves from an enemy they fear.

 

][/i]

 

The creator sealed the DO out of Reality and then went on his merry way. The creator does not play an ongoing acive role in the story. The creator created the World set the pattern to handle what ever problems come up and then he exited stage left. The DO is thus not even fighting the Creator he is fighting the Creator's creation and up to know has lost everytime. That does not evidence a tremendously powerful being (at least relative to the Creator).

[Lord Nik]

The Dark One, therefore, is an enemy the Creator fears.

umm, no. The creator fears the dark one as much as a lion fears a rat. He pushed the DO inot a hole outside of like swatting a fly. And if the DO is as powerful compared to the creator i think he would have objected being put in a box for eternity.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

If the DO can create, then why didn't he make something to smash out of his prison?

 

I can create things, doesn't mean i'd be capable of creating something to smash down a wall without any resources. Beyond which the Dark One is not really in a prison, is he? The Creator created reality as a circle, excluding the Dark One. He is the barbarians at the gate, but nevertheless he's not really imprisoned.

 

Humans were able to break down the shield between the DO and the world. Surely the DO would have been able to do that himself if he was as strong as the creator. And also, the DO is clearly much more than a barbarian at the gate. His abilities are vast-most notable his ability to return a person to life. Being so strong, why can't he enter reality itself?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

umm, no. The creator fears the dark one as much as a lion fears a rat. He pushed the DO inot a hole outside of like swatting a fly. And if the DO is as powerful compared to the creator i think he would have objected being put in a box for eternity.

 

Even if everything you stated as fact following the first two words of your post were indeed fact, it would still be somewhat impolite to introduce your post in such a manner ("Umm, no.") I recognize that it is quite easy for someone to misrepresent themselves through text--the "umm" might have been contemplative while the "no" would therefore, in context, generate an overall thought of disagreement from your personal recollection of the series--but you should consider rephrasing your words from now on. It might be better to say "From what I recall, no."

 

Regardless, consider that there is no real difference between locking someone out of your house and being locked in. (You hold the key in one scenario, true, but in both cases in order for one person to get in/out, they must let the person they locked out or who locked them in gain access to the other area) Now disrespectful of whether or not the Dark One's "prison" is temporaly or spatially finite--we don't know either to be true-- the Creator has restricted himself as much as he has allotted the Dark One, perhaps even limiting himself to the same degree as the Dark One is limited. Therefore even admitting what he has done to the Dark One, he may still perhaps be no more than his equal.

 

In fact, perhaps less than that. The Creator creates and the Dark One destroys. The Creator is not automatically more powerful than the Dark One because he can do something the Dark One can't (perhaps, anyways); nor is the Dark One automatically superior because he can destroy and we have no evidence the Creator can do so. We don't know that the Creator created things instantaneously, or that he is all powerful. So simply because the Dark One cannot destroy things instantaneously does not mean he is inferior. If he can destroy the Wheel at the same speed that the Creator created it, we could say they were equal. Additional factors may need to be considered which would allow the Dark One more time to destroy it than the Creator needed to create it and still recognize the Dark One as the Creator's equal.

 

Let's analyze the catechism spoken during the early parts of the series: "The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are sealed in Shayol Ghul, sealed away by the Creator at the moment of Creation."

 

The Forsaken weren't even born until the Age of Legends. Doesn't that somewhat discredit almost anything else said about the cosmology of the Wheel by anyone actually in the Wheel of Time universe?

 

And RJ is in that universe! As are we. So let's not pretend to know everything there is to know about the world we live in.

 

Oh yeah, I'm quite sure the Dark One did object, though I don't think that you can say he was put in a box for all eternity. I don't think it is so confining as a box is, nor do I think that it is for eternity.

 

Which, I think, is something that Ishamael realized. The Wheel's mechanisms appear to prevent the individual soul from learning of and from its mistakes. However, the Dark One can learn from his. And if he shares them with others, he should eventually reach a point where he can outmaneuver the mistake-prone forces of the Light and emerge victorious.

 

I think that the Wheel's way of responding to the Dark One's increasing knowledge of its workings (and therefore increased ability to manipulate things) is to create more ta'veren and stuff like that. And every time the Dark One gets released even a little, the Wheel is forced to up the ante. Since ta'veren throw everything into chaos, I would speculate that eventually the Wheel might destroy itself.

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Humans were able to break down the shield between the DO and the world. Surely the DO would have been able to do that himself if he was as strong as the creator. And also, the DO is clearly much more than a barbarian at the gate. His abilities are vast-most notable his ability to return a person to life. Being so strong, why can't he enter reality itself?

 

I would imagine it similar to a can of soda--except backwards. It's not made to be opened from the inside (which would be the outside), and can only be opened by some sort of outside (inside) influence or force. Or at least, it's much easier to open one way than another.

 

I believe I addressed this at least somewhat in my previous post.

[Mr Ares]

Yes. I wasn't very impressed.

Really? Then imagine what we name swords.

Something quite small is what springs to mind. And not particularly sharp either. A ladle, perhaps?

 

The Dark One, therefore, is an enemy the Creator fears.

umm, no. The creator fears the dark one as much as a lion fears a rat. He pushed the DO inot a hole outside of like swatting a fly. And if the DO is as powerful compared to the creator i think he would have objected being put in a box for eternity.

I suppose you have evidence to back up your categorical statements of fact? Whoever said the "fight" was easy for ythe Creator? Or do you just assume that because one side won they had an easy time of it. Oh, we won the Great War, beat Germany like swatting a fly. Second World War? Nah, we feared them like a lion fears a rat, even after Dunkirk. Also,which box are you referring to? Luckers made quite clear that in his opinion it was reality that was in the box - the universe besieged.

 

If the DO can create, then why didn't he make something to smash out of his prison?

I can create things, doesn't mean i'd be capable of creating something to smash down a wall without any resources. Beyond which the Dark One is not really in a prison, is he? The Creator created reality as a circle, excluding the Dark One. He is the barbarians at the gate, but nevertheless he's not really imprisoned.

Humans were able to break down the shield between the DO and the world. Surely the DO would have been able to do that himself if he was as strong as the creator. And also, the DO is clearly much more than a barbarian at the gate. His abilities are vast-most notable his ability to return a person to life. Being so strong, why can't he enter reality itself?

He's a god-like barbarian at the gates of the universe. And humanity and Shai'tan are clearly in different circumstances. If a besieging army lacks the resources to batter down the gates or undermine the walls etc., then all they can do is wait. But if Shai'tan convinces one of them to open the gate (the locks are on the inside, so he can't get to them) then he can get in, sack the castle and murder the lord. He's partly in already.

[Lord Nik]

we are both using assumptions as facts so neither of will know but we'll just have to live with each others opinions :P

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Thats a little better. If only you'd included a smiley in the first post. :P

[Lord Nik]

NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE!

sorry if i hurt anyones feelings but im just saying what i believe!!!!!!

its a debate so im just responding, (usually hastily) I cant see the creator fearing the DO, I just cant  and i dont see any evidence pointing to him fearing him. I see more of a weed(DO) that, if not removed, chokes and kills the creation in which was made. Put a wall between creation and the "weed" and if creation is crazy enough to knowck down that wall go nuts.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Nah, you're good. No offense was taken. I understood. All I was saying was that some people might take what you said as an insult, even though it wasn't meant to be.

[Lord Nik]

I have a bad habit of insulting when i dont mean to lol, or i say something that sounds good to me but then find out later... is infact rude. So thanks for understanding and ill rty to watch my tounge... or hasty fingers i guess