Would you accept Rand returning to life?

[maximuswynn]

Maybe like Gaidal Cain he get's spun out and recognised by everyone so he is raised in knowledge of his past. I don't know, I'm just speculating.

[Ndshacker]

Maybe its gonna be something like a well, where he can leave a part of his energy and if it gets to him fast enough after death he'll be alive. Sorta like a Adrenalin-needle to keep hi alive, only its his actual energy.

[Hybrid]

I just think it is interesting that two of the people in Rand's core group of helpers are Nynaeve, the best healer, and Alivia, the best killer.  An interesting duality.

[Mr Ares]

Alivia, the best killer.

How did you come to that conclusion? Have we actually seen Alivia kill anyone in the series? Also, Nynaeve is not the best Healer.

[Hybrid]

Alivia has been damane for what, 400 years?  She also says that she knows every way to kill with the Power.  Given that many damane do nothing more than act as weapons, I'm inclined to believe she is the best killer with the Power from this Age.  No doubt the Forsaken are better and know more ways, but still.  She does rank herself above the Asha'man, but then, the Asha'man only really know one way to kill.  Also, yes, Nynaeve is not the best Healer, but she is one of the best.  True, there's Semirhage, one of the Kin, one of the sisters with Cadsuane, and Chesmal who may be better, but Nynaeve is definitely up there.

[Great Lord of the Dark]

How do we know that Rand is going to live again? I forgeted.

 

I want him to join the GL. That would be hilarious.

[Sabio]

Won't be hard to acept it since we know it will happen.  1.  To live he must die or something like that and 2. We know Aviendha sometime in the future will give birth to his kids.  And she isn't pregnant yet.

 

I think it doesn't mean exactly what we think it does, possibly involving Lewis being inside him.  Since we do know the spirit of Lewis is really in him and he isn't crazy.

 

I am hoping for a surprise like in the middle of the fight Fain runs in stabs the Darklord with his dagger becuase he want's to kill Rand himself.

[Mr Ares]

Given that many damane do nothing more than act as weapons, I'm inclined to believe she is the best killer with the Power from this Age. No doubt the Forsaken are better and know more ways, but still. She does rank herself above the Asha'man, but then, the Asha'man only really know one way to kill.

Those Asha'man with Rand when fighting the army of Shadowspawn in KoD learned how to do Arrows of Fire, Blossoms of Fire and Deathgates. Have we seen anything to rival them in terms of potential for mass slaughter? If I had to pick a Third Ager in the running for "best killer", Rand would thus be pretty high on my list, and Taim and Logain (I know Taim wasn't there, but he is a strong, fairly knowledgeable channeler who raised an army and slaughtered his way across Saldaea). Also, is Alivia an exceptional killer by the standards of Damane? If not I fail to see how she can be considered the best killer even allowing only Third Agers.

 

How do we know that Rand is going to live again? I forgeted.

The Aelfinn told him that to live he must die. There was a foretelling about him that said that he who is dead yet lives, which we infer from other available evidence to be about Rand (his three ladies are mentioned just before that). Probably a couple of other bits of prophecy as well.

 

We know Aviendha sometime in the future will give birth to his kids. And she isn't pregnant yet.

A mistake that will not take long to rectify. He can do it in minutes if he has to - all it requires is a short meet-up and...I'm sure you can guess the rest. It can be done before TG. Before he "dies".

 

Since we do know the spirit of Lewis is really in him and he isn't crazy.

This is opening a can of worms. You did read that bit near the end of KoD where he was specifically stated to be crazy, didn't you?

[Hybrid]

Also, is Alivia an exceptional killer by the standards of Damane? If not I fail to see how she can be considered the best killer even allowing only Third Agers.

 

She has been damane for some 400 years, IIRC.  She is a battle damane, not a sky lights or fortune telling or healing damane or whatever.  She is more powerful than Nynaeve.  So yes, I would say that she is an exceptional killer among damane.  She herself says this.  Since Alivia does not seem to have much of a personality, I doubt she is bragging.  From her point of view, she is just stating what she believes to be fact.  Perhaps she is not the best killer, but I believe she's up there.  Though, yes, we have not seen her in action yet.

[Mr Ares]

She herself says this.

Quotes?

[Sabio]

Since we do know the spirit of Lewis is really in him and he isn't crazy.

This is opening a can of worms. You did read that bit near the end of KoD where he was specifically stated to be crazy, didn't you?

 

He knows the voice is real and Semirhage confirmed that the spirit of Lewis was really there.  He might end up crazy but he knows he isn't hearing imiginary voices.

[Hybrid]

She herself says this.

Quotes?

 

WH, Chapter 11.

"Those Asha'man say they're weapons, and they aren't bad, I know for a fact, but I'm better."

[Mr Ares]

WH, Chapter 11.

"Those Asha'man say they're weapons, and they aren't bad, I know for a fact, but I'm better."

Not quite what I asked for. Unless you are claiming that Asha'man are damane, how does that quote indicate that Alivia is an exceptional killer by damane standards? Furthermore, has she really seen what Asha'man are capable of? Not by WH she hadn't.

 

Since we do know the spirit of Lewis is really in him and he isn't crazy.

This is opening a can of worms. You did read that bit near the end of KoD where he was specifically stated to be crazy, didn't you?

He knows the voice is real and Semirhage confirmed that the spirit of Lewis was really there. He might end up crazy but he knows he isn't hearing imiginary voices.

She said, and I quote, "he's insane". Either she is lying (many arguments about this, but no real case beyond her being a Chosen), or he is mad, for want of a better term. He has the mind and memories of Lews Therin in his head. This is bad. It is a rare form of madness. Crazy is exactly what he is.

[Sabio]

 

Not quite what I asked for. Unless you are claiming that Asha'man are damane, how does that quote indicate that Alivia is an exceptional killer by damane standards? Furthermore, has she really seen what Asha'man are capable of? Not by WH she hadn't.

 

Well she did fight against them in Illian, isn't thst where she was captured?

 

She said, and I quote, "he's insane". Either she is lying (many arguments about this, but no real case beyond her being a Chosen), or he is mad, for want of a better term. He has the mind and memories of Lews Therin in his head. This is bad. It is a rare form of madness. Crazy is exactly what he is.

How would she know he was insane or not?  She hasn't kept close tabs on Rand.  I always took it as she was being overly dramatic and hoping to put some doubt of his abiltiy to win in the minds of the others.  Just because he has the voice doesn't make him crazy but will mean he will go crazy someday, hence the quote " I understand the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt".  But I doubt anyone can make a case for Rand being insane yet.  Moody, grumpy,yes but no one has seen any sign of him being insane yet.

 

[Mr Ares]

Well she did fight against them in Illian, isn't thst where she was captured?

Yes. But that was before a small handful of channelers wiped out 100,000 trollocs in KoD. Most of that killing was done by Asha'man, thanks to the new weaves LTT used. Do the damane have a similar capacity for mass slaughter? Would Rand's army have survived if they did?

 

She said, and I quote, "he's insane". Either she is lying (many arguments about this, but no real case beyond her being a Chosen), or he is mad, for want of a better term. He has the mind and memories of Lews Therin in his head. This is bad. It is a rare form of madness. Crazy is exactly what he is.

How would she know he was insane or not?

Lanfear reports he knows things only Lews Therin could know. Graendal identifies this as a rare form of madness. So Semi knows he is mad.

She hasn't kept close tabs on Rand.

She doesn't have to. Lanfear did. 

Just because he has the voice doesn't make him crazy

It hardly makes him sane.

But I doubt anyone can make a case for Rand being insane yet.

They can.

Moody, grumpy,yes but no one has seen any sign of him being insane yet.

Define insane. That's the first problem. It's not a term used by professionals. It's a term used by laypeople. And while he is not psychotic, while he remains functional, it is entirely possible for a layman to look at Rand's behaviour and call him insane. Voices in his head, for one thing, can certainly be taken as a sign of madness. Especially (important part) when we have just been told he is mad.

[Sabio]

Ahhh but has been pointed out in many other posts, do you believe everything a Forsaken tells you?

[Mr Ares]

Ahhh but has been pointed out in many other posts, do you believe everything a Forsaken tells you?

It has been pointed out, about this very topic, that the best lies contain a grain of truth. This contains more than just a grain. Just about everything Semi says we can back up, and everything she says that we can back up is completely true. The best lies may have a grain of truth but they also contain a grain of lie, and the only hint that this might be a lie is that the source is one of the Chosen - but a Chosen who displays a remarkable degree of honesty during her appearance. Has she ever been seen to utter a lie? I don't disbelieve automatically, unlike some people. Give me a good reason to disbelieve this.

[schizm]

Also, is Alivia an exceptional killer by the standards of Damane? If not I fail to see how she can be considered the best killer even allowing only Third Agers.

 

She has been damane for some 400 years, IIRC.  She is a battle damane, not a sky lights or fortune telling or healing damane or whatever.  She is more powerful than Nynaeve.  So yes, I would say that she is an exceptional killer among damane.  She herself says this.  Since Alivia does not seem to have much of a personality, I doubt she is bragging.  From her point of view, she is just stating what she believes to be fact.  Perhaps she is not the best killer, but I believe she's up there.  Though, yes, we have not seen her in action yet.

Actually we have seen her in action, when Rand was cleansing saidin. She battled one of the forsaken, and from what I gathered equaled her.

[Mr Ares]

Actually we have seen her in action, when Rand was cleansing saidin. She battled one of the forsaken, and from what I gathered equaled her.

From what I could gather, Alivia was armed with an angreal making her stronger than her opponent, by a fair margin, and was wearing a ter'angreal like Mat's foxhead, meaning she couldn't be touched by a direct weave.

[Hybrid]

Well she did fight against them in Illian, isn't thst where she was captured?

Yes. But that was before a small handful of channelers wiped out 100,000 trollocs in KoD. Most of that killing was done by Asha'man, thanks to the new weaves LTT used. Do the damane have a similar capacity for mass slaughter? Would Rand's army have survived if they did?

 

Um, you're jumping back and forth here.  You asked for a quote proving that Alivia was an exceptional damane.  I give you a quote where she thinks she's better than the Asha'man.  You respond by saying that it does not prove she is an exceptional damane, and now you're saying that Asha'man are better than damane?

I admit, "best killer" might have been a little strong, but Alivia has 400 years of experience in blowing up other people to turn her into a killing machine.  Also, she is enormously strong, stronger even than Nynaeve.  And I don't believe the KOD example is justified, since that stemmed from LTT's weaves.  Before KOD, we'd only seen the Asha'man a) turn people into bloody shreds of meat and b) blow up the ground similar to damane.  Nynaeve believes that Alivia knows every way to kill with the Power. (WH, Chapter 32).  Coupled with her strength, yes, I think that Alivia is one of the best killers from this Age.  And Rand doesn't count, since he's got LTT in his head.  Half of what he does is really subconscious based on LTT's memories.

[Mr Ares]

You asked for a quote proving that Alivia was an exceptional damane. I give you a quote where she thinks she's better than the Asha'man.

Which was not what I asked for, was it?

You respond by saying that it does not prove she is an exceptional damane, and now you're saying that Asha'man are better than damane?

Indeed. Alivia's opnion of herself in relation to the Asha'man is not the same as her opinion of herself in realation to other damane. Neither of her opinions are necessarily based on fact. You claimed Alivia said she was better than other damane, I asked you to provide a quote and you have not yet done so. Is that because you can't?

I admit, "best killer" might have been a little strong, but Alivia has 400 years of experience in blowing up other people to turn her into a killing machine. Also, she is enormously strong, stronger even than Nynaeve. And I don't believe the KOD example is justified, since that stemmed from LTT's weaves. Before KOD, we'd only seen the Asha'man a) turn people into bloody shreds of meat and b) blow up the ground similar to damane. Nynaeve believes that Alivia knows every way to kill with the Power. (WH, Chapter 32).

I think the KoD example is entirely justified. That's why I used it. Nynaeve is capable of being wrong. What we see of damane is pretty much what we see from the Asha'man - but they have learned something new and become better. The damane haven't. They are still stuck with the same modes of killing they once had. The Asha'man are now capable of destruction on a scale the damane have not shown themselves capable of matching. They may have been equals once. The Seanchan may even have had the edge. I think they've lost it now.

Half of what he does is really subconscious based on LTT's memories.

I'd like to see you defend that statement. Or is that "a little strong" as well? There are only a few things I can remember LTT doing/teaching. The lightning in TSR, the BoF/AoF/Deathgates in KoD, maybe a couple more things. Most of what he knows he either worked out for himself, learned from Asmo or copied off the Chosen (skimming he copied, and entering T'a'r, Travelling was all him, and balefire).

[Hybrid]

Half of what he does is really subconscious based on LTT's memories.

I'd like to see you defend that statement. Or is that "a little strong" as well? There are only a few things I can remember LTT doing/teaching. The lightning in TSR, the BoF/AoF/Deathgates in KoD, maybe a couple more things. Most of what he knows he either worked out for himself, learned from Asmo or copied off the Chosen (skimming he copied, and entering T'a'r, Travelling was all him, and balefire).

 

My point is that Rand does not count, because he is using knowledge from the AoL.  Quite a lot of his channeling he basically took from LTT, since he could not even recognize weaves, but he managed to skim, or travel.  He was only going on a "sense of folding" yet he managed to duplicate the weave! 

 

You are right, there is no evidence that Alivia is really Randland Most Dangerous #1 beyond characters' opinions.  Fine.  You have been pointing out flaws in my thoughts.  But where is the evidence that she is not as good as Asha'man or damane?

 

Also, not all Asha'man know the LTT KoD Shadowspawn-killing weaves.  Only Logain's group.

[Mr Ares]

My point is that Rand does not count, because he is using knowledge from the AoL. Quite a lot of his channeling he basically took from LTT, since he could not even recognize weaves, but he managed to skim, or travel. He was only going on a "sense of folding" yet he managed to duplicate the weave!

He worked it out for himself. Why do some people seem so reluctant to give Rand any credit?

 

You are right, there is no evidence that Alivia is really Randland Most Dangerous #1 beyond characters' opinions. Fine. You have been pointing out flaws in my thoughts. But where is the evidence that she is not as good as Asha'man or damane?

I'm not aware of any evidence indicating she is significantly better or worse than any other damane or Asha'man, outside of those with the new weaves (because of the new weaves). Nor was I contending that there was.

 

Also, not all Asha'man know the LTT KoD Shadowspawn-killing weaves. Only Logain's group.

I'm aware of that. But those that know are still Asha'man, and it wouldn't take long to teach the others.

[Luckers]

Mr Ares, in the absense of other information the statement from Alivia that she believes that she is better than the Asha'men as destruction combined with Nynaeve's comments do hold some weight. I'd concede that Age of Legends weaves have a degree more flash, but they also have only ten years war-experience backing them--Alivia has four hundred, and that counts. And she has training from a culture with 3,000 years experience with fighting with the power, a culture that managed to eradicate its shadowspawn--that counts too.

 

Things are hardly certain with such a weak basis, but still--the flow of events supports it.

 

I do agree with you, however, that Rand figured out travelling to the dreamworld by himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hybrid]

He worked it out for himself. Why do some people seem so reluctant to give Rand any credit?

 

I thought it might be something like muscle memory.  But I've been rereading WOT, and the more powerful channelers like Nynaeve and Aviendha manage to discover balefire and Traveling respectively, so maybe it's not too incredible.  Coupled with the ability of wilders to self-teach a few weaves at least, like Nynaeve's healing, I can believe that.

 

My position on Alivia still stands, though.  I don't believe she's the type of person to boast about her abilities.  I'm going to take hers and Nynaeve's statements at face value until other evidence shows up.