Is Rand mad because of the taint or other reasons?

[metria31183]

Straight from RJ's mouth.  I speculated on my own that the two personalites were a coping mechanism.

That quote didn't say what you claimed it said:

I remember reading somewhere that RJ said LTT's voice was NOT real and that as a defense mechanism, Rand had developed a second personality in his head.

Very different.

 

My apologies for not being clear on what I was getting from RJ's quote and what was my own speculation.  I was not trying to say that RJ specifically said coping mechanism.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

He got this knowledge in his head how? Let's see, is everyone a reborn soul? Yes. Do other people have this problem, with them learning stuff from past lives? No. So how does Rand have this knowledge? It sounds like a decidedly abnormal mental condition, of the sort that laypeople may term madness.

 

One word.  MAT.  He was speaking bits of the old tongue before his run in with the Finns.  Moiraine called it the Old Blood.  I would say Mat is rembering bits of a past life or lives.  Nobody was calling Mat mad.

 

Rand, however, is special. IN MY OPINION, his soul's memories of it's past life are stronger than most peoples and he cannot deal with those memories so he creates a second personality to serve as a "legitimate" source for them. 

 

Once again this just my opinion and people can agree or disagree with me.  Everyone is just as entitled to their own opinions as I am to mine.

 

 

[Luckers]

One word.  MAT.  He was speaking bits of the old tongue before his run in with the Finns.  Moiraine called it the Old Blood.  I would say Mat is rembering bits of a past life or lives.  Nobody was calling Mat mad.

 

The Old Blood is a relatively common effect, and it is specific to genetics, not the soul.

 

Rand, however, is special. IN MY OPINION, his soul's memories of it's past life are stronger than most peoples and he cannot deal with those memories so he creates a second personality to serve as a "legitimate" source for them. 

 

He is not special. Graendal has delt with people who have spoken with the manifest personalities of past incarnations of their souls.

 

And he did not 'create' a personality. Lews Therin's personality is inherent in the manifestation of that facet of the soul.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

I agree. The split personality thing is only true in that both personalities of this life and the previous one are both present in the mind. Its not a split personality as in schizofrenia. Its like a soul with two versions of the same mind, where one is the dominant, the other having a very limited influence on the body itself.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Does the mechanism by which Rand "hears" LTT's voice, etc. really matter?

 

If we're going to define "madness" as what goes on in someone's head, then who is really sane?  We all have some pretty crazy thoughts at times.

 

Madness has to be defined as how someone behaves as a result of what he/she experiences mentally.  Whether a person acts on the irrational thoughts.

 

So, what has Rand done to make us think he's "mad?"

 

All I can think of is the two incidents with Callandor.

 

Were either of those caused by anything he "heard" LTT say?  No.

 

The incident in Altara was purely the result of his own need for a quick resolution to the Seanchan problem.  The Asha'man were telling him something was wrong with saidin.  Dashiva told him.  Even LTT told him:

His voice began to gain intensity and drift into wild disbelieving laughter.  It can't be wrong, but it is.  Something strange, something wrong, skittering, jumping, twitching.  His cackles turned to weeping.  It can't be!  I must be mad!  And, he vanished before Rand could mute him.

 

Wrongheaded hubris. 

"Nobody stands nose-to-nose with the Dragon Reborn."  Rand growled.  "The Forsaken could tell him that, whoever he is.  Right, Flinn?  Dashiva?  Flinn nodded uncertainly.  Dashiva flinched.  "You think I can't surprise him, Bashere?  Watch!"  Pulling the long bundle loose, he stripped away the cloth covering, and Rand heard gasps as raindrops glistened on a sword seemingly made of crystal.  The Sword That Is Not a Sword.  "Let's see if he is surprised by Callandor in the hands of the Dragon Reborn."

 

And, then he presses on in spite of everything:

But when he called to Lews Therin, only anguished whimpers answered, as if that disembodied voice feared the pain of saidin.

 

If Rand's behavior is sometimes "mad," it's got a lot more to do with the overall situation; the pressure he's under; the lack of meaningful cooperation from too many, than it does with LTT's "voice" in his head.

 

However much anything Semirhage may say agrees with certain "facts" is meaningless with regard to any real "madness" Rand may exhibit.  The reasons behind that "madness" stem from a whole different set of factors.  Not least of which is Rand's own lack of any real self-confidence.

[Daphilip]

Hey, Mr Ares! Chill out, it's only ideas... Yeah it's a little out there, but thats something I was totally aware of when I posted it.

 

I like theories that's very out there, and if RJ would have given me the opportunity to finish the books, then I would have ended it with something like that, something that people didn't expect.

 

And yes, it wasn't very thought through, but that's because I thought it up while I was writing. And lets face it, it's not like any theory on this forum is gonna turn out to be true, and after what I've read by BS, he to is someone who loves to surprise his readers at the moment of climax (read the ending of Mistborn: Final Empire) so what we know, he might as well end it like that

[Mr Ares]

Hey, Mr Ares! Chill out.

No. Get used to it.

 

I like theories that's very out there, and if RJ would have given me the opportunity to finish the books, then I would have ended it with something like that, something that people didn't expect.

 

And yes, it wasn't very thought through, but that's because I thought it up while I was writing. And lets face it, it's not like any theory on this forum is gonna turn out to be true, and after what I've read by BS, he to is someone who loves to surprise his readers at the moment of climax (read the ending of Mistborn: Final Empire) so what we know, he might as well end it like that

How can you be sure that nothing we theorise will come true? The plot isn't going to change because we guess what will happen. And RJ was responsible for the plot of the book, not BS. BS is unlikely to diverge from the laid down guidelines, so look at what RJ would have done. The theories I like are the ones that make sense. If something is unexpected, is it unexpected because it's just some random crap you've just made up that doesn't make sense, or is it unexpected because for some reason no one had thought of it, even though there is some evidence pointing towards it - you look back and think "how could I have missed that"? The latter is good unexpected, the former isn't. Are you willing to put out either? If yes, it's a bloody good job you didn't get to finish this. I've read M:FE (and not just the ending) and he seems to favour the latter.

[Luckers]

Does the mechanism by which Rand "hears" LTT's voice, etc. really matter?

 

If we're going to define "madness" as what goes on in someone's head, then who is really sane?  We all have some pretty crazy thoughts at times.

 

Madness has to be defined as how someone behaves as a result of what he/she experiences mentally.  Whether a person acts on the irrational thoughts.

 

Very true. In fact psychologists today don't even use the word or idea of 'mad' or 'insanity'. They look at abnormal mental states, and judge that based on the degree that it effects a persons ability to function in a social setting. Byt that light Rand is little more that a highly functional skitzophrenic.

 

So, what has Rand done to make us think he's "mad?"

 

All I can think of is the two incidents with Callandor.

 

As to this, i would point out that this is a result of the lack of a buffer in Callandor which causes an increase in the effects of the Taint, and induses 'wildness of the mind'.

 

As in, its not his normal state, he's only like that when using Callandor.

 

That being said Rand does display the facets of a skitzophrenic, as well as displaying irrationale emotional outbursts... He is, by all definitions, mentally unstable.

 

A large part of that has to do with the Taint. The LTT voice definately lies in there. But yes i agree the stress and presure--not to mention the torture he suffered at the hands of the Aes Sedai in LoC--all add to it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The second incident, in Tarabon, that I emphasized, was before he actually used Callandor.

 

My point in highlighting that part of the incident is that it clearly shows that it is the increasing pressure he is under from so many different directions that is causing his irrationality.  It also demonstrates that, while he listens to what LTT says, he doesn't follow the ideas and actions that LTT espouses.  ( even the ones that are in his best interest, like in this case re any use of saidin under the conditions that obtained there and then )

 

IOW, LTT is pretty clearly crazy however you choose to define the term.  Rand is only sometimes recklessly irrational.  And, then only at times of incredible stress.

 

The real world concept of schizophrenia doesn't encompass real manifestations of prior lives and memories, which is what Rand experiences.  We need a different term.

[Daphilip]

Ok... Mr Ares, I'm gonna say this again: Chill Out!

All I did was posting a theory, not fu**ing your sister, killing your brother and steal your car!

 

The reason I brought up the possibility that LTT comes from something else than just the Taint, is because he is more than just a voice in some madmans head... He can take controll of saidin, and I think that he took controll of Rands body sometime to. What Ive know about, that isn't something I've heard of before.

 

I think it's time for you to cool down a bit, all you do is insulting other peoples theories, you aren't really contributing with anything new and exciting yourself!

[Luckers]

The second incident, in Tarabon, that I emphasized, was before he actually used Callandor.

 

My point in highlighting that part of the incident is that it clearly shows that it is the increasing pressure he is under from so many different directions that is causing his irrationality.  It also demonstrates that, while he listens to what LTT says, he doesn't follow the ideas and actions that LTT espouses.  ( even the ones that are in his best interest, like in this case re any use of saidin under the conditions that obtained there and then )

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Rand's never been to Tarabon. Do you mean the situation in western Altara when Rand is fighting the Seanchan? That's a result of the instability created by the overstressing of the Bowl of Winds.

 

That being said, i never stated Rand was stable, or 'sane'. I merely wished to point out that the incidences with Callandor were not his normal mindset.

 

The real world concept of schizophrenia doesn't encompass real manifestations of prior lives and memories, which is what Rand experiences.  We need a different term.

 

I don't see why. The 'real world' concept includes many people who think they hear the voices of past lives. Who knows, maybe they're correct.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, the concept of mental illness  and especially schizophrenia, carries a connotation of a fundamental disconnect from reality.  The reality here is that the voice and memories in Rand's head are very real.

 

Wherever he actually was on the Seanchan/Randland frontline, the decision to use Callandor was the first and most patently irrational decision.  What happened as he was using it was both the product of Callandor itself and the OP conditions that resulted form the overstress of the Bowl, and has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here.

 

I'm pointing out that the first decision was the clearly Rand irrational one.  Brought on by unbearable stress and an overriding need for a quick resolution to the Seanchan problem.  None of the factors that directly led to that decision are attributable to any voice in his head.  In fact he reached that decision and acted upon it in spite of what that voice was telling him.  That decision was pure Rand.  Influenced, nay, ruled, only by very real world stresses and strains.

[mralexcummings]

Ok well I think we all agree roughly the same on the aspect of his sanity and/or lack there of. I want to know if you guys think he will be acting the same at the end if he is cured or whatever. It seems that Elayne, Avi, and Min like him the way his is, with instability and all. Do you think they'll still see him as the same Rand?

 

 

p.s.

MR ARES

STOP HARASSING OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS AND DEBATE YOUR OWN.

[Luckers]

Well, the concept of mental illness  and especially schizophrenia, carries a connotation of a fundamental disconnect from reality.  The reality here is that the voice and memories in Rand's head are very real.

 

I would point out that the concept of 'real' is hardly an accurate judge. The voices schitzophrenics here are real--they hear them, and that influences their behaviours. The voices therefore exist, fractures of an existing personality, but nonetheless real. That connotation of the fundemental disconnection is simply innacurate--such a dislocation does indeed sometime occur, yet thats a seperate symptom. People believe this because its a simple explanation, but its hardly realistic. Indeed, modern psychology doesn't address 'real' or 'sane' it addresses functionality. Rand is, by modern psychological paradigms, a highly functional schitsophrenic. That the voice is 'real' isn't relevant. The voice inhibits his actions, yet he is able to function social.

 

He hears voices, yet rationally can distinguish between that and the real world. There are many schitsophrenics currently that match him. Indeed, one such gave a lecture during my social attraction psych lecture some two years ago. Quite a funny man, in truth.

 

Wherever he actually was on the Seanchan/Randland frontline, the decision to use Callandor was the first and most patently irrational decision.  What happened as he was using it was both the product of Callandor itself and the OP conditions that resulted form the overstress of the Bowl, and has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here.

 

What...? Under the circumstances using Callandor would be a very rational decision. He did not knew of the flaw.

 

I'm pointing out that the first decision was the clearly Rand irrational one.  Brought on by unbearable stress and an overriding need for a quick resolution to the Seanchan problem.  None of the factors that directly led to that decision are attributable to any voice in his head.  In fact he reached that decision and acted upon it in spite of what that voice was telling him.  That decision was pure Rand.  Influenced, nay, ruled, only by very real world stresses and strains.

 

Again... i don't see the logic in what you suggest. Rand faced a powerful enemy... why precisely was using Callandor irrational--and even if it was, the topic of this discussion is his insanity, in what way was his rashness endemic of that? Anyone under the presures he was under would suffer such.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Exactly.  Or if not exactly, at least analogous pressures and decisions.

 

The decision was irrational because, as I pointed out, the OP conditions in the area clearly indicated that further use of OP was too dangerous.  At least one of the Asha'man had already told him that.  Dashiva had already told him that.  LTT had already told him that.

 

Even Bashere had already told him it was time to take his marbles and go home.

 

He let his need for a quick resolution override his sense.  He let his ego as the Dragon Reborn convince him that he could overcome any obstacle.  He succumbed to the mania of the moment.  In short, he lost it.

 

All before he ever took Callandor out of its wrappings.