Is Rand mad because of the taint or other reasons?

[Daphilip]

Everybody can agree that Rand is atleast a little mad, right?

 

But then you look at his situation:

 

The worlds fate depends on him

 

The worlds most powerfull channellers are after him

 

He loves three women, but he knows that keeping them by his side might cause their death

 

He is certain that he won't survive TG

 

He is raised with the idea that women should be protected at all costs, and for every maiden or woman in generall that dies, he seems to take just one more step against madness

 

He is in constant physical and psychological pain

 

People blaims him for stuff that he isn't responsible for

 

He has been betrayed ALOT by people he thought he could trust

 

He is destined to fight the worlds most terrible creature/force/thing (the Do) and has no idea how

 

 

If you look at all those facts, then i suspect that his mentality problems might not be caused, exclusively, by the taint, but also as a result of his situation and the pressure the world has on him?

 

Any comments?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Yes, I believe Rands madness is due to the situation as much as the Taint. But I believe Lews Therin to be a side effect of Taint-madness.

[price_check]

yes probably mad because of the stress aswell as the taint

but i think LTT is real despite the idea that he is a side effect- i tink he AND rand will defeat the dark one

[Guest Dreadlord]

Yes, Lews Therin IS real. The fact that he hears the voice-a real voice-is because of the Taint-madness. Semirhage explains that, she heard it from Graendal who is an expert in studies of the mind.

[RAND AL THOR]

Yes, Lews Therin IS real. The fact that he hears the voice-a real voice-is because of the Taint-madness. Semirhage explains that, she heard it from Graendal who is an expert in studies of the mind.

 

There is little doubt that LTT is real.

However if it is due to the taint-why didn't any other  Ashaman hear voices? Is it because he is the Dragon?

Also, I wouldn;t put much weight into Semirhage's and Graendal's words. The Taint came into existence at the moment of Sealing. The Forsaken went into a trance for 3000 years. How much time do you think Graendal would have had after awakening to study the effects of the taint? Almost none considering the low frequency of male channelers (at least until the amnesty).

 

I think LTT is more strongly linked to Rand.

 

I also think its a bit sad that Rand is partially mad. He laughs weirdly in many books and talks all sorts of nonsense in book 4 which he need not voice aloud. This is the first time I've read a fantasy novel with the MC going mad. But he seems to alternate at times from being mad to suddenly very sane.

 

I hope the taint has nothing to do with Rand's madness because that would mean it is incurable. (though likely Nynaeve would find a way).

[Luckers]

There is little doubt that LTT is real.

However if it is due to the taint-why didn't any other  Ashaman hear voices? Is it because he is the Dragon?

 

Because the taint is not a specific type of madness. It causes a general increase in the instability of a persons mental state--but how that manifests can be anything--we've seen men have hallucinations, mentally devolve into childhood, experience uncontrollable rage--its unset.

 

That being said, we do know that other men who can channel have heard voices. Cadsuane cites it as being relatively common. As for experiencing real voices, according to Graendal that too is perfectly possible, so there is no reason the taint wouldn't cause it, as indeed it has.

 

Also, I wouldn;t put much weight into Semirhage's and Graendal's words. The Taint came into existence at the moment of Sealing. The Forsaken went into a trance for 3000 years. How much time do you think Graendal would have had after awakening to study the effects of the taint? Almost none considering the low frequency of male channelers (at least until the amnesty).

 

Firstly, every single part of what Semirhage said that we can verify has been true. She had remarkable knowledge of the reality of Rand's situation--and such a thing would not have been spoken had it not been true--Graendal would have had no reason to suggest it.

 

The Taint causes pre-existing conditions to manifest--all of the Taint-madnesses are perfectly normal, perfectly natural forms of insanity, and as such Graendal would have, and did encounter them. That their source lies in the Taint is irrelevent.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Also, you have to remember Semirhage said there is a small chance of the connection between lives being made, hence why only Rand has the voice that we know about.

 

We havent had PoVs from any other male channeller that has been exposed to the Taint as long as Rand has anyway, so we dont know if any other Ashaman has been hearing their past lives voice, although i doubt there will be another person who does other than Rand.

 

Now hears a leap of faith-could Rands connection have been brought about by a Ta'veren twist, via the Taint-madness? He has most definitely benefitted from that connection many, many times. I dont necessarily believe this but its just a thought.

[RAND AL THOR]

Possible possible. Ta'veren activity is everywhere after all.

[metria31183]

I remember reading somewhere that RJ said LTT's voice was NOT real and that as a defense mechanism, Rand had developed a second personality in his head.  I believe the question posed to him was did Rand have two souls in one body.  His answer was no, he had one soul and two personalities.  It kinda makes sense if you think about it.  Rand's soul is LTT's reincarnated and we know that having a reincarnated soul gives the person some memories of previous lifetimes.  Rand is having trouble dealing with fact that he is the Dragon Reborn.  Mix that in with the trauma of seeing women die, being put in a box and taken out twice a day to be beaten, and his sense that he has to harden himself against the world, and you have a perfect vehicle for schizophrenia (sp?).  He doesn't want to admit that is soul is not truly his own, so he develops LTT's voice as a second personality to cope with memories a reincarnated soul  brings.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Rand would be dead by now if it wasnt for Lews Therins memories, so maybe Rand needed to gain that connection, and the only way that could come about is by losing some sanity.

 

That being said, you can put almost everything down to Ta'veren if you dig deep enough, and the Ta'veren is too vague for the subject of this thread, I think.

 

But yes, I do believe it to be the Taint that led to the connection between Rand and Lews Therin. When Rand first starts hearing the voice, can anyone remember which book its in? I cant remember clearly but it cant have been any later than book 3, right? And up to that point Rand still hasnt accepted his fate, he still hasn't fully grasped that the future of EVERYTHING is resting on his shoulders. All the points raised on the opening post of this thread apply, they all contributed to Rands loopiness, but all that would have been a bit more gradual, I think. Lews Therin showed up way before Rands fate affected him mentally, in my oppinion.

[metria31183]

 

But yes, I do believe it to be the Taint that led to the connection between Rand and Lews Therin. When Rand first starts hearing the voice, can anyone remember which book its in? I cant remember clearly but it cant have been any later than book 3, right? And up to that point Rand still hasnt accepted his fate, he still hasn't fully grasped that the future of EVERYTHING is resting on his shoulders. All the points raised on the opening post of this thread apply, they all contributed to Rands loopiness, but all that would have been a bit more gradual, I think. Lews Therin showed up way before Rands fate affected him mentally, in my oppinion.

 

I believe he starts hearing the voice in book 3.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  That he hadn't accepted his fate was my whole point.  He didn't want to accept his fate to developed a second personality as a coping mechanism.  By the time he had accepted his fate, LTT was already developed as a separate entity in his mind and it was too late.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Hmm...if thats true though, it just seems abit odd to me that so many characters who seem to know what they are about on this very subject are wrong.

[Mr Ares]

I remember reading somewhere that RJ said LTT's voice was NOT real and that as a defense mechanism, Rand had developed a second personality in his head.  I believe the question posed to him was did Rand have two souls in one body.  His answer was no, he had one soul and two personalities.  It kinda makes sense if you think about it.  Rand's soul is LTT's reincarnated and we know that having a reincarnated soul gives the person some memories of previous lifetimes.  Rand is having trouble dealing with fact that he is the Dragon Reborn.  Mix that in with the trauma of seeing women die, being put in a box and taken out twice a day to be beaten, and his sense that he has to harden himself against the world, and you have a perfect vehicle for schizophrenia (sp?).  He doesn't want to admit that is soul is not truly his own, so he develops LTT's voice as a second personality to cope with memories a reincarnated soul  brings.

Saying Rand has one soul and two personalities (which no-one is arguing with) is one thing. Saying that LTT's voice isn't "real" (define real) and is just Rand's coping mechanism is another. So provide the quote.

 

Now, as to when he first hears the voice, the earliest I can remember is near the start of TSR (which is after he has accepted the being the Dragon thing). It says "now" and weaves lightning to hunt and kill trollocs in the Stone, a weave that Rand didn't know. This is telling. LTT's first manifestation comes with knowlefge Rand didn't have, and couldn't have had. Further, we see memories, personal memories, of Lews Therin's, so it can't just be put down to "Rand worked out how to do it". Then we see that Rand has somehow acquired LTT's talent for drawing - can a constructed personality do that? The knowledge and memories of LTT seeped into Rand, and his personality with them, as a result of the Taint. It is the best answer we have, it fits all the evidence. And the only assumption that it requires is that Semi told the truth (A Chosen? Not lying? Letting the side down!).

[metria31183]

Hmm...if thats true though, it just seems abit odd to me that so many characters who seem to know what they are about on this very subject are wrong.

 

It's happened before.   For example, everybody knew severing couldn't be healed (even in the AoL), and low and behold somebody figured out a way to heal it.  They weren't wrong in that it couldn't be healed by any way they knew, but Nynaeve looked at the problem from a different direction and tried something no one else had even thought of before.

[mralexcummings]

Semirhage and Graendal

Ok going back a few posts, do you not think that it would be plausable for Semirhage to lie about Graendal, or to change her words so to inspire disloyalty among Rand's followers? She did just blow off his hand and probably wasn't expecting to live much longer so she might be trying one last hit before she has to go. I don't think anyone has ever called the Forsaken a honest bunch, and other than her word she has no proof. Same applies to Graendal's word, she would probably consider it fun or funny to create a lie like that to Semirhage in exchange for some information or a new pet or something.

:-\

 

[Mr Ares]

Given that every word Semi says that we can verify we see as true, and given that the truth can also be damaging, even without embellishment, and given that we have no evidence even hinting that she lied, no, it is not plausible for us to say that Semi lied. We should take her at her word in this, because all the eidence we have says she is being truthful. Furthermore, the knowledge, the memories, the abilities, all of these come from somewhere, and "coping mechanism" just doesn't fit the facts. Nor does any other theory. Semi told the truth.

[metria31183]

From http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.6_lews.html

 

RJ's recent comments seem to support the "half-and-half" theory. From the New York Barnes and Noble signing on January 7, 2003:

 

Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

 

Straight from RJ's mouth.  I speculated on my own that the two personalites were a coping mechanism.

 

 

[metria31183]

Given that every word Semi says that we can verify we see as true, and given that the truth can also be damaging, even without embellishment, and given that we have no evidence even hinting that she lied, no, it is not plausible for us to say that Semi lied. We should take her at her word in this, because all the eidence we have says she is being truthful. Furthermore, the knowledge, the memories, the abilities, all of these come from somewhere, and "coping mechanism" just doesn't fit the facts. Nor does any other theory. Semi told the truth.

 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.  I am saying that Rand did not want to admit that his soul was LTT's reborn when it clearly is.  His knowledge, memories, abilites, etc. come from his soul being LTT's reborn so he developed the voice in his head as way to justify to himself how he could do what he could do without admitting that he was a reincarnation.  Now he can literally say the voices in my head told me when someone asks him how he knows something.

[Daphilip]

I do believe that LTT is real, but what if it wasn't the taint, but instead something that the light/creator/thing with power put in Rand?

 

What we know, LTT is the only one who knows how to seal the DO's prison, and thats because of years of studies and almost perfection in the using of the OP

 

Rand don't possess the same skill as LTT did/does, I think we all can agree about that, and he doesn't have the time to learn either

 

Rand is possibly the worlds most cunniest male channeler, except for the Forsaken. That means that no one could tell him how to seal the prison

 

That means that for Rand to have a chance to make it, he needed help. So the light/creator/thing with power puts the conscience of the only one who knows how to in his body

 

But, being that the OP is tainted, LTT goes mad from Rands taint and starts openly speak to him in his mind, at the same time that Rand's mind starts losing it because of the pressure

 

What I'm trying to put forward is that maybe LTT takes the blow from the Taint in Saidin, perhaps even  with purpose, but in the same time, Rand goes mad for more human reasons that has nothing to do with the taint

 

If that is the case, then maybe Rand can be cured from his madness, which would be impossible if it was from the Taint

 

It's a little out there, but maybe...

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Q:The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

A: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] togethe

UNQUOTE

 

That doesnt give a definite answer either way. There are too many ways to interpret it.

 

I cant believe this discussion has turned into an arguement over whether Lews Therin is real or not. It seems as clear as day that he is real. Doesnt it seem odd to you guys that everything Semirhage said stacks perfectly with what Cadsuane said, with neither of them having met before? Why the hell would Graendal lie to Semirhage about something so pointless, something she couldnt even use against Semirhage?

[metria31183]

 

That doesnt give a definite answer either way. There are too many ways to interpret it.

 

 

I think that was the point.  It can be interpreted however you see it.  My interpretation is by no mean the definitive one.  Everyone has his or her own opinion and they are entitled to that opinion.  I didn't mean to turn this into an argument, just to offer my own viewpoint on the subject.  Ya'll can agree or disagree with it as you see fit.  For the most part, all view points around here seem to be respected and everyone offers their own interpretation of material.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

I cant believe this discussion has turned into an arguement over whether Lews Therin is real or not. It seems as clear as day that he is real.

 

True true. I too can't think how any coherent person can doubt the reality of LTT. Rand has had so many benefits from him and Rand knows so much that only LTT could have told him that it seems weird that people are STILL saying that he isn't real.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Quote from: Dreadlord on May 12, 2008, 07:37:45 AM

Hmm...if thats true though, it just seems abit odd to me that so many characters who seem to know what they are about on this very subject are wrong.

 

 

It's happened before.  For example, everybody knew severing couldn't be healed (even in the AoL), and low and behold somebody figured out a way to heal it.  They weren't wrong in that it couldn't be healed by any way they knew, but Nynaeve looked at the problem from a different direction and tried something no one else had even thought of before

UNQUOTE

 

That can hardly be compared to Cadsuane and Semirhage being wrong though.

 

Firstly, Aes Sedai from this Age admit to losing most of the knowledge from the Age of Legends. Healing stilling was lost in time. Semirhage is FROM the Age of Legends, when people really knew what they were about, and not just with regard to the Power. So you think someone who was an expert-a proffessional-in this area-was wrong?

 

Secondly, Cadsuane is famous for dealing with male channellers, because she knows most of what there is to know about them. If she was wrong about everything she thought she knew, she wouldnt have become famous in that field, even with her angreal that help her.

 

Thirdly, like I said before, everything Cadsuane and Semirhage said fit together. Yet people STILL doubt them? I give up

[price_check]

i dnt tink it is caus of the taint

i tink it is the patterns way of helpn rand- rand would be dead if he wasnt bonded wid LTT

and it is possible to remove madness from the taint- may only be temp- caus ish did it to LTT in the eye of the world

 

[Mr Ares]

Straight from RJ's mouth.  I speculated on my own that the two personalites were a coping mechanism.

That quote didn't say what you claimed it said:

I remember reading somewhere that RJ said LTT's voice was NOT real and that as a defense mechanism, Rand had developed a second personality in his head.

Very different.

 

Given that every word Semi says that we can verify we see as true, and given that the truth can also be damaging, even without embellishment, and given that we have no evidence even hinting that she lied, no, it is not plausible for us to say that Semi lied. We should take her at her word in this, because all the evidence we have says she is being truthful. Furthermore, the knowledge, the memories, the abilities, all of these come from somewhere, and "coping mechanism" just doesn't fit the facts. Nor does any other theory. Semi told the truth.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I am saying that Rand did not want to admit that his soul was LTT's reborn when it clearly is. His knowledge, memories, abilites, etc. come from his soul being LTT's reborn so he developed the voice in his head as way to justify to himself how he could do what he could do without admitting that he was a reincarnation. Now he can literally say the voices in my head told me when someone asks him how he knows something.

He got this knowledge in his head how? Let's see, is everyone a reborn soul? Yes. Do other people have this problem, with them learning stuff from past lives? No. So how does Rand have this knowledge? It sounds like a decidedly abnormal mental condition, of the sort that laypeople may term madness.

 

I do believe that LTT is real, but what if it wasn't the taint, but instead something that the light/creator/thing with power put in Rand?

This would be the same Creator that claims not to be getting involved, would it? Yeah, getting involved and sticking a bunch of memories in some guys head sounds exactly what someone not getting involved would do, perfectly in character. A well thought through idea. As it is, all you do is put forward an overcomplicated solution to something we have a simple answer for. The knowledge, personality, memories all come from Rand having a rare form of madness, madness being something that is caused by the taint, Rand being exposed to the taint. It all makes sense, none of it requires all this complicated rubbish about the Creator sticking LTT in his head to absorb the taint and go mad for Rand.

 

Rand is possibly the worlds most cunniest male channeler, except for the Forsaken. That means that no one could tell him how to seal the prison

You've lost me. What does this word mean?

 

I don't think it is because of the taint. I think it is the Pattern's way of helping Rand - Rand would be dead if he wasn't bonded with LTT and it is possible to remove madness from the taint - maybe only temporarily - because Ishamael did it to LTT in the Eye of the World.

So the Pattern causes someone to go mad and sticks the memories and personality of someones former incarnation in their head because it's trying to be helpful? Considering we know Rand is exposed to the taint and the taint causes madness, surely that is where to look if we see signs of madness in Rand? Or is looking at something that causes madness that a mad character has been in contact with as the cause of said characters madness too sensible an answer? The only answer we have in the books is the taint & madness. It is the only answer we need. Why bother ignoring the evidence in the books and coming up with some sort of ridiculous answer that just overcomplicates the issue. LTT is present at least in part as a result of the taint and he is real (for a given value of real), his memories and personality are things Rand shouldn't have, that he does indicates something is wrong and the only answer we have that fits all the facts is that this is a rare form of madness. Such as could be caused by the taint.