Weaves

[Captain General Miraj]

Does anyone think it is possible to create a nuclear bomb weave?  OR  A cuendiller shield to protect agianst balefire?

[MystErikEry]

For the first, you've seen powerful effects of the Power already.  I should think nuclear power might be easy beans compared to Balefire, although perhaps nuclear energy doesn't really exist, per se, in this world...

 

You wouldn't be able to just summon a cuendillar shield, though - cuendillar is created by holding a particular weave to metal (iron, I believe it was) until it transmutes.  You could make cuendillar armor, theoretically, though, by making a mail of it (and you'd have to make sure the links were held apart from one another with cloth or some other material, to prevent them from being permanently fused together which would prevent wearing the shirt).... but that's a lot of work, and might not be worth it in the end (if even a tiny ray of Balefire hits you, you're completely toast, as far as I can see).

[Guest Dreadlord]

Why is it that whenever people talk about cuindellar armor they automatically think of chain mail? There are other types of armor you know. Look at Myrdraal armor, with the overlapping plates. Each plate is made individually by the armorer, so it would be easy to make heartsone armor.

[Captain General Miraj]

I should of said cuendiller-like shield to protect against balefire.

 

This how I picture it a normal shield of air with a net of earth on top touched with fire turning that shield of air into a cuendiller-like shield.

 

How I picture a nuclear bomb weave:

 

Fire, Earth, Water, Air in complex pattern made to unravel into an implosion. The four powers surrounded by a sphere of intricate spirit.  Perhaps all five made to unravel into an implosion. This will cause nucleur reaction which creates a nuclear bomb

[Luckers]

Perhaps it would be possible to split an atom with the power, though i suspect the dexterity required would probably be beyond most people--concider how Moghedian weaves an illusion with flows so minute that none of the Black Ajah can see them--they arn't inverted, they're just too small. This i imagine would involve manipulation on a much, much finer level--an atomic level. That's probably impossible.

 

But beyond that, for them to attempt to split the atom they would first need to understand atoms and atomic physics. With that sort of knowledge they'd likely be able to figure out the way we do it.

[Luckers]

As for cuendillar shields--the weave itself is not cuendillar, and would likely do nothing against balefire.

 

That being said, there are suggestions that such a weave might exist. At the end of tDR Ishamael shoots a weave that is probably balefire at Rand, which he parts with Callandor. There are two suggested explanations to this--the first, which is the one i hold to, is that Callandor itself is a type of cuendillar. The second is that Rand stumbled upon a new weave capable of blocking balefire. It's certainly possible, he did draw on the power as the beam parted, and it wouldn't be the first supposedly impossible thing he did with Callandor (well, it would, but it wouldn't be the only).

[Captain General Miraj]

In the Guide it says Aginor understood the most basic structue for living things: the atom. Thus I think a nuclear bomb weave is possible. Luckers you are correct (as always) that they need to understand atoms and atomic physics to make it work. Thus only a AOL channeller could figure the weave out.

 

This brings up another question:

 

Why didn't the Aes Sedi during the War of Power create a nuclear bomb weave?

 

To me a nuclear bomb is more deadly and dangerous then balefire. I would not be surprised to find out that a nuclear bomb burns the threads like balefire.

[Luckers]

But again there is the issue of the dexterity required to weave a web minute enough to be able to manipulate an atom in that manner.

 

And your right, i don't doubt that the AOL had knowledge of atoms and fission and all the rest, but the issue is would they have known how to employ? They were heavily reliant on the One Power in their technology, and the Guide also states that most technological research was done by Aes Sedai--as such they likely miss stuff. Like, for instance, a complete lack of guns. When industry was so crippled that they could manufacture shocklances anymore they fell back to swords--why? The American civil war shows that even in a society without infrastructure basic firearms can be utilized.

 

My guess is that since the power likely wouldn't be able to achieve splitting an atom--or rather no channeler would have the finesse to do it--it simply would not have occured to them that they could cause it simply by increasing presure on mass like cracking a wallnut. Such would have been too simple, and to different, for them to achieve.

 

 

[MystErikEry]

Why is it that whenever people talk about cuindellar armor they automatically think of chain mail? There are other types of armor you know. Look at Myrdraal armor, with the overlapping plates. Each plate is made individually by the armorer, so it would be easy to make heartsone armor.

 

*shrugs* Chainmail is the first I thought of.  There's other kinds, as well, of course, including tower shield-style "armors".

[Luckers]

What is 'tower shield-style armour'

[aevogt]

Such a weave, to create a nuclear type explosion, isn't really necessary in any event.  In our age, we have no, (or possibly few) special mental abilities that enable us to manipulate our surroundings with the OP, so we use science.

 

The second and third agers face no such restriction.  We see a relatively middling circle of channelers remove the entire top of a hill (along with Osangar) using a simple weave of fire through Callandor.  We see Rand and Asmodean reduce an entire mountain to a fan of rubble with the Choden Kal.  As a result of the cleansing, a chunk a mile and a half deep is scooped (or possibly vaporised) out of the face of the earth with the same tool.

 

I don't want to get into a debate on nuclear power bacause my last physics class was before some of you were born but alongside the One Power,  a nuclear weapon seems almost paltry.

[bRANDan]

A tower shield is a very large rectangular shield, slightly curved at the edges. Often used as the front line of a battle formation.

[aussie_ashaman123]

I cant see the AoL using nukes. There are too many side effects, such as the land being toxic (Im sure the Chosen Don'T want to rule a world that Glows in the Dark). I can definately see the Shadow using Biological Agents though. We Know they had bombs, simply because we know they outfitted Sho-wings for combat, and dropping a bomb a few thousand feet up is a simple and effective weapon.

 

as for cuendillar armor, whats the point? Sure balefire wont kill you, but if they decide to channel heat into it, youll be roasted alive and your expencive heartstone suit will be unharmed.

 

The only weave i can see as being truly useful against balefire is a mask of mirrors, one that makes you appear to be a few feet from where you really are

[balefireruinssteaks]

Fire, Earth, Water, Air in complex pattern made to unravel into an implosion. The four powers surrounded by a sphere of intricate spirit.

 

You'd have to understand the nature of how RJ interprets the Five Powers to be able to actually manipulate them like that.  It's not like the Wicca view of elements or the Golden Dawn.  I think RJ had specific ideas about what each of the Five Powers could accomplish and then what they would do blended together.

 

For example...when Nyneave Healed Logain...Spirit was used to sever him.  She found the "cut" but what made her think of Fire and Spirit?  What purpose does Fire have in that "bridge"?  So you'd have to ask yourself "what can one do with the Power of Fire?"  We see people creating fireballs, lighting candles, causing existing fires to flare up, snuffing out fires, lighting the air on fire, and even various uses of it in Healing that concern themselves with the Heart (perhaps an imagery about fire being passionate or things that have to do with passion, etc.)

 

Even Elayne is like "I don't get why you use such and such during Healing (the standard healing, not Nyneave's Healing)"

 

You can build a bridge out of Air, or create a shield, or cover something up, or move objects around...and then Air is used in Healing too, but why?

 

 

So in order to create a nuclear weave you'd have to really understand the nature of the Five Powers so you would know which ones to impliment and why, and then how to set the strength of the weave.  Maybe Fire, Earth and Air for the creation of a bomb-like weave that splits an atom.

[metria31183]

This is completely off topic but Luckers, How do you justify this statement

The American civil war shows that even in a society without infrastructure basic firearms can be utilized.

 

[bRANDan]

Does anyone think it is possible to create a nuclear bomb weave?

 

No. Fission reactions require atoms that have a high atomic number and are unstable. To make a fission reaction via channelling you'd have to either:

1) Take several lumps of Uranium or Plutonium and mash them together so they are above critical mass.

2) Turn a bunch of atoms, enough to ensure the end result is above critical mass, into a heavy weight, unstable element.

Problems with either include:

1) The unstable elements are radioactive and will poison and eventually kill you.

2) You'd have to be mile and miles away, or else you'd just kill yourself and everyone around you.

 

Fusion reactions require the smallest atoms, Hydrogen and Helium are best. To make a fusion reaction via channelling you'd have to have or create a bunch of these atoms and compress them or provide them with enough energy to begin the fusion process.

Problems with this include:

1) You'd have to be mile and miles away, or else you'd just kill yourself and everyone around you.

2) The amount of energy reqwuired to initiate a fusion reaction is immense. Examples of this immense amount of energy are:

                                  A) The gravitational strength of the Sun

                                  B) The energy produced in a fission reaction (Hydrogen Bombs)

 

Any way you look at it it isn't possible. Well, it is possible, but completely and utterly pointless, kind of like making a bicycle out of Air and pedalling you way around instead of just Travelling somewhere. Why put yourself and others at risk when a thick walled steel tube packed with plutonium and gunpowder/dynomite/'your explosive of choice' will do the job just as well. Rand had trouble channelling at Cairhein in tFoH from that platform, I doubt he'd be able to set off a fission reaction at the required distance without the Koedan Chal and he's about as strong as you get. But if he had the Choedan Kal, he'd probably be able to do more damage than a nuclear reaction without all the planning for reactive materials.

 

Of course if you meant 'a weave that produces a nuclear bomb size explosion', then yes, I'd say such a thing was proven when Elayne showed us just how powerful the Power really is (The Kin farmhouse). I just think it would take more power than one channeller alone has, maybe a mixed circle or sa'angreal could do it.

[Juggler]

If you want a weave that stops balefire couldn't you open a skimming gateway? the fire would rush into the hole. although there is the problem of possible burning out the pattern but The black "space" apparently went on forever.

 

if you require the energy from a hydrogen bomb for fusion could the weave be:

split water into air and spark with fire (H2O > 2H2 + O2 = 2H2O)Highly Exothermic

If you need to see create a lens from air/water and contain power inside a shield.

But as you say ultimately pointless.

 

healing using 5 weaves definately

Air - air throughout the body as numerous gases most potently in the blood as oxygen and carbon dioxide

Water - well we are 70% water every cell of our bodies is packed with the stuff

Fire - Heat - we are mamals and as such are HOT blooded we maintain a core temperature and blood carries a lot of heat

Earth - Again the blood, we have tonnes of Iron in Haemoglobin

Spirit - Well thats probably a catalyst for Empathic effect.

 

So spirit + 4 powers all of which contain a physical relation to Blood

Elayne probably doesn't understand because she is more an artisan whereas Nynaeve is certainly more of a biologist if Elayne doen't know how the body works she's very likely not to know WHY things are used in Healing.

I like the Idea of fire being related to passion as when severed people seem to loose all theirs, but again passion = blood boiling, face red, HEAT

 

 

 

[bRANDan]

if you require the energy from a hydrogen bomb for fusion could the weave be:

split water into air and spark with fire (H2O > 2H2 + O2 = 2H2O)Highly Exothermic

 

You're thinking of hydrogen combustion, not nearly enough energy there, I'm talking about hydrogen fusion. A Hydrogen Bomb is a fission bomb, a regular nuke, surrounded by an isotope of Hydrogen. The energy from the fission reaction starts the fusion reaction in the Hydrogen atoms. Currently that is the only way we here on earth can make a fusion reaction occur, the Sun and stars would be the other examples of fusion reactions.

 

I like your idea of a Skimming Gateway to avoid balefire though. I wonder... if it occurred alot would Skimming become more dangerous with balefire flying around in there, endlessly travelling the darkness until it finds a target? Some unlucky Accepted perhaps? It certainly would be confusing if someone opened a Skimming gateway and balefire suddenly shot out and toasted their friend.

[Luckers]

A tower shield is a very large rectangular shield, slightly curved at the edges. Often used as the front line of a battle formation.

 

Thanks... i was a bit put off by the word Tower. Heh.

 

This is completely off topic but Luckers, How do you justify this statement

The American civil war shows that even in a society without infrastructure basic firearms can be utilized.

 

 

Perhaps i should have said industrial infrastructure. Firearms can be maintained without amunitions plants, at least to a limited degree--the American civil war was the only instance of such that popped to mind.

 

 

[Jarraad]

Ok, so before we discuss how this could be done, lets examine HOW it is done today.  Essentially a nuclear bomb is basically one large mass of enriched uranium or plutonium.  To activate, a uranium 235 bullet is blasted from a chamber into the mass of nuclear material.  This starts a chain reaction where the multiple smaller atoms that form from the remains (protons neutrons and electrons) of the uranium bullet, fire off into the rest of the mass of nuclear material, etc.  So honestly, you could not weave this type of reaction with the OP into thin air.  IT WOULD NOT WORK.  The only theoretical way to do it would be to use the OP to smash the uranium bullet into the nuclear mass.  All this could provide would be a faster detonation and reaction.  Anyway the way the nuclear bomb was used in WW2 is the basic principle of THE BOMB.

[Jehaine]

If you want a weave that stops balefire couldn't you open a skimming gateway? the fire would rush into the hole. although there is the problem of possible burning out the pattern but The black "space" apparently went on forever.

 

Actually, this got me thinking. What if you open a Travel portal, destination aimed at the person casting balefire at you? For example, Asmodean is weaving balefire at Rand. Rand opens a Traveling portal in front of him that will take him next to Asmodean, the ray enters the portal and subsequently hits Asmo.

 

The problem is, what happens next? Technically, Asmo wouldn't have existed when he started weaving balefire, but if he wasn't there he'd never have gotten hit in the first place, thus negating his own death. Which would lead to him getting balefired again. Interesting timeloop.

 

Also, the nuclear bomb weave is impossible. Even if they had the OP strength to weave something like that, the problem remains that in order to alter something on an atomic level, your weave needs to be fine enough for that purpose, which would in turn make it invisible to the naked eye. And since you need to actually see what you are weaving...

 

So yeah. Possible in terms of OP, yes. Possible in terms of weaving it, no. But that's my two cents.

[MystErikEry]

If you Balefire yourself, you still die.  Balefire seems to be something that can't be burned out of the pattern (well, it can, but it won't bring back other burned threads).

 

Basically, yes, they are balefired and everything they did is undone - but whatever they hit with balefire is still gone, regardless, even though they weren't there to fire the balefire.

 

So if suddenly a bunch of things start to disappear around you, it means someone balefired there, and then was subsequently hit with a way big blast of balefire by someone else.  :D

[Andrew the Great]

I don't want to get into a debate on nuclear power bacause my last physics class was before some of you were born but alongside the One Power,  a nuclear weapon seems almost paltry.

 

Killing thousands of people in seconds and causing radiation problems to areas hundreds of miles around is paltry? I'm scared to see what you consider destructive.

 

Yes, the power is useful as a weapon, but I can't think of any instances that were so destructive so quickly as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, and look at how much more powerful nukes are today.

 

As everyone else has been stating, I agree that the side effects would prevent people using nukes. The only way I can see to make a nuclear bomb weave would be to do something that gave off huge amounts of energy to start hydrogen fusion. Once again, though, the problem exists with being too close and getting fried, or being too far away to start the weave. 

 

In regards to balefire, if you somehow balefired yourself, you would cease to exist before you balefired yourself, meaning you never balefired yourself, meaning you're still alive, meaning you can balefire yourself, etc, etc, etc....

 

Is it even possible to Balefire yourself?

[CUBAREY]

Quote

 

In regards to balefire, if you somehow balefired yourself, you would cease to exist before you balefired yourself, meaning you never balefired yourself, meaning you're still alive, meaning you can balefire yourself, etc, etc, etc....

 

Is it even possible to Balefire yourself?

 

This is the Paradox that caused the Weave of Time to begin to unravel during the war at the end of AOL. Its why both sides unilareally decided not to continue using balefire.

[Asmo]

What I consider destructive? The Choeden Kal D=. Alone, they can split apart a continent. Together, they can tear the world asunder. No nuke can do that kind of damage =/.

 

But them aside, even Callandor would pale compared to a nuclear bomb. Rand can evaporate a city with Callandor, but a nuke can do that, and leave radiation that can damage human life for ages afterwards... plus the strongest nukes today can do far more than level a city, and cities in WoT are quite obviously much smaller than ours.

 

As for Balefiring yourself, being ressurected doesn't mean you will continue to do what you were doing, so if you are ressurected in that manner I don't think you would use Balefire again.