Forgotten talents?

[kilika]

ok, from my understanding the white tower was established soon after the breaking of the world and has survived for 3000 to present randland. 

 

my question is how in the hell did the aes sedai forget sooooo many talents?

 

like any form of healing other than the basic field healing they do now and traveling and everything else they seem to have forgotten? 

 

how did aes sedai forget so much if they basically established the white tower in the beginning of the 3rd age.  i know that the breaking of the world was catastrophic and that the ajah's were formed as groups of women came together then they eventually became the white tower we know today.  but these people were from the age of legends - used to all the complicated weaves, how did they forget? did they simply not teach newer aes sedai?  i can't believe that.  and i can't believe that the black ajah sabotaged the tower to that extend and would they knowingly make themselves less smart just to hurt the other aes sedai?

 

just something i've been thinking about and have never seem on dragonmount before,

enjoy

:P

 

 

[Asmo]

Not everyone can do the same weaves. Probably there are some weaves that those who gathered could not do, and some others they found no need to use or teach, and thus were forgotten. Aes Sedai would be pretty proud in their own knowledge back then to teach everything they knew, and everyone's view on the world was different. Perhaps the sister who knew how to make cuendillar didn't want to pass on the knowledge, because she knew that cuendillar could be used to make unbreakable weapons which made her feel that she would be indirectly violating the Three Oaths. Perhaps the sister who knew how to Travel didn't want that knowledge widespread, because of how Travelling was used in the Breaking to transport the forces of the Shadow into cities and destroy them unexpectedly.

[kilika]

its true that some people can do some weaves and others cant, but weaves like traveling seem to be only based on strength hence current aes sedai link and then can travel so my question still stands how was traveling forgotten? if i were a channeler thats the 1st thing id want to learn its not like people never knew they could do it as randlanders knew it was possible, seems very ignorant to say that it was just simply forgotten because they didn't 'want' to pass the knowledge on, y would they hinder themselves so?

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think it might be a combination of Aes Sedai just withholding information and some other things.

 

Remember that just because the Age of Legend information was available didn't mean everyone had the necessary strength to accomplish the weaves.  Traveling for example is not something all Aes Sedai can do.  Perhaps the stronger Aes Sedai who could Travel were all together and died out together, so they didn't feel the need to pass on the information since everyone could already do it.  The less strong probably didn't know the weave anyway, or if they did also did not think to pass it along.

 

Remember also that after the Breaking there were the Aes Sedai that ended up in Seanchan (we know there are weaves used in Seanchan that are not used in the mainland, even weaves such as Sky Lights and the more interesting ones like "everyone knew that any damane could tell one's future") and other Aes Sedai traveled to Rhuidien to try to salvage the Aiel culture, and the rest fought for power amongst themselves until the White Tower was established. 

 

So there is a lot of room in there for weaves to be lost or forgotten or simply not used or taught.  The key in those times was the survival of the Aes Sedai so perhaps there was not such a huge emphasis on teaching as there was on surviving.

[bRANDan]

How useful was Travelling back then? The world had just been torn to smithereens and there was not many places to go to. The WT and the Stone? IIRC the land was continuously changing for a few hundred years, Travelling or skimming would be useless. The way I see it  the WT was probably a ragged thing in its early stages a handful of AS, with more slowly coming in, but all the AS would be older, the ones who lived through the breaking. Then they try to start gathering or recruiting girls who can channel when there is probably not too many permanent human settlements if any at all. All these things combined I can see them losing many weaves and Talents. Ter'angreal making, Travelling, I see easily lost. The ability to invert weaves, hide the ability to channel, or disguise yourself I could see the sisters who knew these not telling or teaching others about them, they give you an advantage in combat and the sisters who knew them would more likely want to keep that advantage. They also would not want those weaves to fall into the wrong hands.

[aevogt]

Most of the "lost" knowledge was lost during the breaking. 

 

According to one of Rand's ancestor's POV's in Rhuidean, the White Tower wasn't founded until about 100 years after the breaking and wasn't completed for another hundred.  This puts it nearly 300 years after the end of the age of legneds proper.

 

Coupled with the massive loss of knowledge in general during the breaking itself, it's miraculous they even remembered the square knot by 200 AB.

[Orange Fescue]

That makes me think of a couple of questions.

 

How soon after the Breaking is "soon after the Breaking"? I recall reading that the breaking lasted 100 to 200 years or something. If correct, that's a long time for a society to be in chaos with insane male channellers randomly blowing things up, decreasing numbers of female channellers hunting the males, the weather gone crazy (Rand's Ruidean visions of the drought during the Breaking), no government, bands of warlords roaming the land, the Ogier cut off from the steddings and so on. In such a Mad Max environment, how would there be any sort of organized training of new Aes Sedai?

 

Some folks have mentioned that Aes Sedai who survived the breaking should have been able to pass on more knowledge than they did but how many fully-trained Aes Sedai actually did survive? Perhaps all of the survivors were partially-trained novices who had learned what they could on the run until their teachers were killed fighting madmen or were shot in the back by bitter people who blamed them for the Breaking.

 

I'd always assumed the reason the only healing that survived was "hasty battlefield work", as Moghedien put it, was that it was all anyone had time for during the Breaking. In the midst of the apocalypse, no one had time to pass on how to use the One Power for boob jobs and tummy tucks. The best-trained, Semiraghe-level doctors (and most or all AS teachers) would have been at university-type locations in the cities. When the male AS started slaughtering people, they would have been more likely to be killed or to die during the chaos that followed than AS army medics or soldiers who were away from "where men gather" and had wilderness survival skills and military training.

[Jehaine]

Actually, imagine it somewhat like the Sith on Star Wars... An Aes Sedai would take an apprentice or two, and teach them what she'd know so she'll have some backup in case things get rowdy. The White Tower would simply have been a base of operations between several large groups which would later 'evolve' to become the Ajahs.

 

Also, there's the matter of skill involved. Let's say Aes Sedai Narime knows how to weave Meteor, a weave requiring massive amounts of Earth and Fire. Since having one of those elements, much less two, is rare amongst Aes Sedai, there is no one that can learn the weave. Thus, after Narime's death the weave will have been lost. Documented in that it can be done, yes. But the knowledge of the weave itself is lost.

 

Naturally, examples rarely get as obvious as this one. But still, Nyn mentioned her Healing took all five elements, and even today it's fairly rare for a channeler to be strong enough in all five elements to be able to master that one. Thus, 'hasty battlefield work' might be the extent most Aes Sedai are capable of, and it'd later on become known as a basic Healing weave as the 'AoL version' moves to the background more and more.

 

Just my two cents, as always.

[aevogt]

More good points, Star Wars geek notwithstanding

[42Bonzo88]

    A thought occured to me that most Aes Sedai were wondering if anything was going to survive the breaking. Again, we have at least a 300 year chaotic time period where "I really need to write this down." or "Yes, I do have to show someone this weave, well she may have to" etc.

    Then when the Tower was formed, obviously some of the biggest ter'angreal would have been there since the founding, but that doesn't mean the knowlege came with it. So, they start to study them and probably would have got alot of the knowlege back and would figure out what they did, but now sisters were dying or being burned out by just experimenting. So, to keep sisters alive, only a few "weirdos" would continue studying but frowned on because we don't want other lives in danger.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Most of the "lost" knowledge was lost during the breaking

UNQUOTE

 

Exactly. Its hard to remember how to do something if the people who knew it are dead. It stands to reason that a lot of the knowledge was lost because not only did many of the channellers die, but you also have to remember that after Saidin was tainted many of the wonders of the One Power were no longer possible, as both men and women channellers were required.

[bjclinton]

One thing to keep in mind is that although there were many things from the AoL that were lost, most of that knowledge involved the use of specific weaves, not necessarily "talents," per se. For example, a few weaves that were lost and have since been rediscovered:

 

Balefire

Traveling

Skimming

Entering TAR in the flesh

Creating T'A and Cuendillar

 

However, as far as lost Talents go, as the subject of your post indicates, many of these talents are either new talents or talents that are so old that they pre-date even the AoL. A few examples:

 

Avienda's ability to determine the use of a T'A

Perrin's wolf talent

Min's ability to read the pattern

Nynaeve's ability to sense danger

 

I guess I wanted to point out the marked difference between lost "talents" and new talents and lost "weaves" and new weaves. Something that we can also start to see (mostly from the Chosen's / Forsaken's POV) is that the Aes Sedai of this Age are either using weaves that were never used be before or doing things that were never done before. Examples:

 

Healing Stilling

New methods of healing

Unraveling a weave

Bonding a Warder

Creating the Sister-Wife Bond among the Aiel

 

I think whats really happening in this age is that there are two things going on. The Channellers of this age are, in fact, rediscovering old weaves and also the Channellers of this age are evolving in their use of the OP and discovering new weaves. Noone can say for sure why these old weaves were lost, but my guess is what someone said above which is that most likely with so much fear, dissention and wide-spread seperation of channellers for hundreds of years, the information died with specific people and they left no record of their abilities.

 

[BrainFireBob]

No Aes Sedai lived through the entire Breaking. Period. This from RJ's mouth.

 

The Breaking lasted for approximately 300 years, the White Tower was founded a century after that. That's 400 years, not 300.

 

During the Breaking, Aes Sedai taught apprentices, not students, in a student-master relationship- what the teacher passed on was limited by what the teacher could teach, what the student could learn, how much time they had, and what was most necessary to learn first (ie, essential "core" weaves, the esoteric work had to wait).

 

By the amount of knowledge lost, we can conclude that Aes Sedai apprentices did not have much time to learn from their masters compared to the amount of knowlege they needed to learn.

 

Mind, the same situation applies to the Trolloc Wars. Sisters were raised as fast as possible, part of the library burned, etc. Whitebridge, the Far Madding ter'angreal, the Tower itself, etc., would seem to date from the Covenant, not the AoL, which means again older, experienced, knowledgable Aes Sedai were dying before their knowledge could be passed on. If no-one can teach, and it's not knowledge that can be written down, no-one can learn. And in the current Age, there is no systemic attempt to study and refine knowledge of the One Power, Ajahs are secretive and the very nature of the White Tower discourages sharing discoveries.

[Captain General Miraj]

I agree with you BrainFireBob except on one point.

 

Two Aes Sedi survived the Breaking. These two attached themselves to the Jenn Aiel and helped build Rhuidien by creating the Glass Collums that reveal the history of the Aiel and maybe the Three Ring Arch that allows a person to see their future.

 

These two AOL Aes Sedi were out of reach from White Tower Aes Sedi and when they died their knowledge of the Power went with them. Also they were out of reach from the Wise Ones becasue they never left the Jenn.

[Luckers]

Remember too that Aes Sedai faced more dangers in the Breaking than just facing men who could channel. The Chosen were still around in force, and we know for a fact that warfare between Light and Shadow continued for a further forty years after the sealing of the bore under Latra Posae Decume (the period in which she earned the title Shadar Nor, the Shadow Slicer). Even beyond that Chosen survived, and whilst i doubt they were working in an effort to secure victory for the Shadow so much as trying to stay alive, they'd obviously be pretty dangerous anyway.

 

Its not that startling that no Aes Sedai survived the breaking entirely (except for some amongst the Aiel--im not sure, but i remember RJ saying something about that, which in any case doesn't matter since they clearly died out without passing on their knowledge).

 

And in the short of that, in the uncertainty, who'd have time to fully train new Aes Sedai? In most cases that takes upwards of twenty years, but even if they forced, how many died from the forcing? And what of keeping back weaves in fear of your apprentice turning them on you for her own benefit. It was a dark time, and I doubt the 'out for yourself' attitude was limited to the non-channelers.

 

Two Aes Sedi survived the Breaking. These two attached themselves to the Jenn Aiel and helped build Rhuidien by creating the Glass Collums that reveal the history of the Aiel and maybe the Three Ring Arch that allows a person to see their future.

 

These two AOL Aes Sedi were out of reach from White Tower Aes Sedi and when they died their knowledge of the Power went with them. Also they were out of reach from the Wise Ones becasue they never left the Jenn.

 

Thats not accurate. For one, the Pact of Rhuidean was made during the War of the Hundred Years--there are references to Artur Hawkwing's invasion in it, and we know that was the only time anyone ever attempted to invade the Waste. Secondly, both those Aes Sedai had the agelessness which means they came from the Tower--and after the implementation of the Three Oaths which happened sometime between the Trolloc Wars and the rise of Hawkwing. You see at one stage i concidered that they might be the descendents of the dozen Aes Sedai who were with the Jenn during the watergiving, but that seems impossible now.

 

Those Aes Sedai, whatever happened to them, were probably survivors from the Age of Legends. Their sorrow at the changes in the Aiel seems too real to not be personal. My guess is they were hiding from the Tower, who were at that time stilling any Aes Sedai not affiliated. It's possible the two at the Pact gained their knowledge and wisdom from ter'angreal left by the ones from the Watergiving, maybe that was the original purpose of the Glass Collums, since we know Rhuidean was originally constructed for a different purpose than the one it came to serve.

[aussie_ashaman123]

Its very easy for knowledge to be lost. Look at our own Dark Ages. The fall of the Roman Empire is a minor thing compared to a war-wracked world ripped apart by channelling madmen, yet how much was lost then?

 

As for the lost talents, we know there are fewer Aes Sedai, and the Aes Sedai are generally getting less and less powerful, so it very easy to have talents lost. If 1 in 2000 channellers had a talent, and there are only 1000 Aes Sedai, then there is only a .5% chance of it being there.

[aevogt]

I hate to be the pain in the ass, bne thing about all this logic bothers me.

 

Strength in the power has everything to do with making a weave work correctly, not in learning it.

 

Any aes sedai could have taught Traveling, Skimming, etc. to anyone who could channel, regardless of strength.

 

Sorilea strength is virtually non-existant, yet she is able to learn and form the weave to Travel, even though she is unable to make it work.

 

I suppose that this would still cause a Talent to die out, but after only a few hundred years, when a channeler born and trained during the breaking would have lived long after it was over.  There were still some written records that survived the Breaking, it's just that most of them didn't survive the Trolloc Wars.

[metria31183]

Here is a thought.  What if the and Aes Sedai after the breaking and during the Trolloc Wars was afraid of passing on information only she knew?  The Black Ajah ran rampant during the Trolloc Wars and sometimes the only person you can trust is yourself.  What if they just didn't want to the Shadow to have the knowledge so they let it die with them?

[balefireruinssteaks]

Also realize that there are a lot of weaves out there that apparently have been used for some time now without names that might have had names way back in the Age of Legends.

 

Like...what is Milking Tears?  Is anyone able to do it but just didn't know it was actually a Talent?

 

What about one of the Kin's ability to bend a shield and fluxuate it so that she can hold someone far stronger than she?  Is that a talent?

 

And then there are the weaves that the Aiel Wise Ones have used to check a mother's health and the health of her baby...how long have those weaves been in existence without the Yellow Ajah knowing?

 

What about the weaves the Atha'an Miere use?  Perhaps they are also Talents that have either been renamed or still hold the original name but the Tower just doesn't know because those channelers don't interact with one another.

 

Sky Lights, etc. from the Seanchan...you see?  There are heaps of weaves out there that are still in existence that the White Tower simply doesn't know because they aren't around the channelers that DO know them.  So I think there are probably a lot more "lost Talents" floating about in other cultures.

[42Bonzo88]

    Exactly balefireruinssteaks!

 

    It is another example of how blind Aes Sedai are. If it didn't come from thier tower it is a "lost" talent because they don't know about it and don't go looking because they are the only ones who can channel. Verin said in a book that she wished she had either an Aiel or a Sea Folk member in the tower. Well, there was a reason for them not to go to the tower, they already had Saidar!! Kudos to them for keeping it secret, but if it's not looked for it is easier to keep it secret.

   

[Luckers]

Here is a thought.  What if the and Aes Sedai after the breaking and during the Trolloc Wars was afraid of passing on information only she knew?  The Black Ajah ran rampant during the Trolloc Wars and sometimes the only person you can trust is yourself.  What if they just didn't want to the Shadow to have the knowledge so they let it die with them

 

Isn't that more or less what i just said? And more than the shadow--there had to be alot of 'out for yourself' going on during a cataclysm like the breaking, and that had to infect the Aes Sedai.

 

Heres another thought too, we know that during the formation of the Tower that any Aes Sedai unwilling to align themself were either killed, severed or forced to hide so deeply that there was no chance they could spread their knowledge. Given that each ajah to survive the breaking represented a different line of training, and thus different skills maintained, and different skills lost that means every group destroyed likely meant even more knowledge lost.