Shielding and Angreal

[Asmo]

So if someone shielded another person, and the gap between them was close enough that the other person could break through if he used an angreal (but not without), and the shielded person had an angreal on him, could he use the angreal to break through the shield, or would an angreal be totally inaccessible while a person is shielded? (same goes for sa'angreal, of course)

[Luckers]

Totally inaccessable. To reach the angreal they'd have to reach through the shield, which means they'd have to break it first.

 

That being said, a person who was channeling through an angreal wouldn't be as easy to shield. the extra power flow would need to be chopped through.

[Asmo]

Hmm. I do recall it stated that to channel with an angreal you have to touch the True Source through it. However, since a person can break through a shield even if he is already shielded, it depends on a person's strength in the One Power (and of course how skilled and strong the person shielding him is). So just trying to touch the Source with an angreal wouldn't make you as powerful? Rand thought that saidin rushed through Callandor before he touched the True Source. But well, that might just have been an impression, and there were a lot of reasons why it wouldn't work as it should in that instance. To be honest, I'm completely baffled about this. But yeah, what you said makes sense. As for the second point, of course shielding someone who is channeling through an angreal would be extremely difficult. Shielding someone who is channeling, period, is almost impossible unless you are insanely stronger than him, you are extremely talented, you distract him or outlast him. The defender using an angreal would certainly mean the gap should be monstrous.

 

I'll expand the question. What about Linking? If a person in a Circle is shielded, would it mean that that person's strength is inaccessible by the leader of the Circle? What about the Leader of the Circle being shielded? Would that mean all the others were shielded, too? Would the Circle break? Could the leadership be passed to another member of the Circle? What if a person was stilled while being in / leading a Circle?

[Luckers]

Rand's experiences in LoC show as that it is a function of the reaching out--the straining is due to the innate strength of the part of him that reaches out--that innate strength also means he can hold more of the power than others, but both are effects.

 

Say the Power is a hammar. A weak man would only be able to lift a small hammar, a strong man would be able to lift a great hammar. If bound, that weak man would only be able to break a weak binding in order to reach out and grab his weak hammar, whilst the strong man would be able to break a strong binding to reach out and grab the heavy hammar.

 

An angreal is like using a forklift to lift an even greater hammar, yet to work the forklift one must break through the bindings, and the depends entirely on their own personal strength.

 

I'll expand the question. What about Linking? If a person in a Circle is shielded, would it mean that that person's strength is inaccessible by the leader of the Circle? What about the Leader of the Circle being shielded? Would that mean all the others were shielded, too? Would the Circle break? Could the leadership be passed to another member of the Circle? What if a person was stilled while being in / leading a Circle?

 

Acording to RJ a circle becomes like a single channeler. There is only one link to the power, and to shield it you must cut that link, which shields the entire circle. A single individual cannot be shielded.

 

As for being stilled, im not sure. There is a buffer that automatically forms in normal circles that keeps a person from being burned out, whether that means its impossible to sever a circle i don't know--if it is possible i'd say it probably means that everyone within the circle would be severed.

[Asmo]

Wait, so, according to your first point, the greater the... well, "inner power", whatever that can refer to, of the channeler, the greater the amount of the One Power he can hold? Well, it's possible, and your sledgehammer example fits nicely. I guess Callandor is a disfunctional lift, since while normal lifts will simply not lift something heavy enough to crush you, yet Callandor will and then the weight of what is lifted will destroy you (the whole thing referring to the buffer of normal angreal that prevent you from burning yourself out).

 

As for the Circle, people in a Circle clearly experience holding the True Source, by Elayne's and Nynaeve's feelings after the use of the Bowl of Winds, so it stands to reason they can be shielded, so they can't access the One Power? Well, like I said, I don't know. But I don't believe being buffered against burning yourself means anything when someone is trying to still you forcefully.

[Luckers]

Wait, so, according to your first point, the greater the... well, "inner power", whatever that can refer to, of the channeler, the greater the amount of the One Power he can hold? Well, it's possible, and your sledgehammer example fits nicely. I guess Callandor is a disfunctional lift, since while normal lifts will simply not lift something heavy enough to crush you, yet Callandor will and then the weight of what is lifted will destroy you (the whole thing referring to the buffer of normal angreal that prevent you from burning yourself out).

 

Mmm. Exactly, and we do know that there is a difference between the One Power, and the 'arm' that a person uses to reach out and touch it--its that same thing Nynaeve detects when healing Logain, Siuan and Leane.

 

As for the Circle, people in a Circle clearly experience holding the True Source, by Elayne's and Nynaeve's feelings after the use of the Bowl of Winds, so it stands to reason they can be shielded, so they can't access the One Power? Well, like I said, I don't know. But I don't believe being buffered against burning yourself means anything when someone is trying to still you forcefully.

 

Well, again RJ himself was that one who stated that a circle becomes like a single greater channeler. Which makes sense--like shielding someone using an angreal, you have to cut through the greater power flow. To shield a circle, you have to create a shield strong enough to shield the entire thing. One cannot simple shield a single person in the circle and deprive the circle of them.

 

And again, perhaps... though it would be striking through a flow not linked to one single person. In every other case of stilling its described as cutting through at the point where their connection to saidar is, in a circle this is not the case.

 

If it is possible, i do think it would sever everyone in the circle.

[Asmo]

Which brings me to another question - it was mentioned somewhere that Logain would burn himself out while trying to use the Choden Kal. Was this prior to or after the access keys came into play? If it was after, how does it fit with the access keys providing safeguards? Or did she one who said it simply not know what he was on about, or trying to get Rand not to use them? I'm sorry, but my recollections from the earlier books is a bunch of blurriness, since I started my re-read from book 5.

 

And while we're at it, what about the female CK melting? Was it because Nynaeve drew more of the One Power through it than the sa'angreal itself could stand? In which case why did the male one survive, since Rand is supposedly stronger than Nynaeve? I don't know how to explain it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm not certain how to explain it either.

 

Why I think the female CK melted and the access key broke is because saidar was doing a lot more work than saidin during the cleansing.

 

Rand formed a pipe from saidar and then extended saidin into that pipe just far enough to "touch" the evil of Shadar Logoth.  Thereafter, the taint flowed along the surface of saidin and into SL.  So, to use an electrical analogy, saidar was the insulation, saidin was the copper wire, and the taint was the flow of electrical current along the surface of that wire.  And, the female CK was the fuse in the circuit.  Just like when a circuit draws more current than it is designed to handle, the effects show up first in the melting and burning fuse.

[Luckers]

Which brings me to another question - it was mentioned somewhere that Logain would burn himself out while trying to use the Choden Kal. Was this prior to or after the access keys came into play? If it was after, how does it fit with the access keys providing safeguards? Or did she one who said it simply not know what he was on about, or trying to get Rand not to use them? I'm sorry, but my recollections from the earlier books is a bunch of blurriness, since I started my re-read from book 5.

 

Ok, this is misleading. It was Verin that said this, saying that Logain could not use the Choedan Kal, but the likes of Moiraine, Romanda, Elaida, Siuan and Lelaine could. Now, firstly, there is no one that could survive using the Choedan Kal without the Access Keys, and from her comment it seems she was unaware of that, so thats her first mistake. Beyond that, though, even with the Access Keys a certain degree of strength is needed, so she was correct in that. However, that being said Logain stands far above Moiraine and the rest, so she was again wrong.

 

Altogether... misleading.

 

And while we're at it, what about the female CK melting? Was it because Nynaeve drew more of the One Power through it than the sa'angreal itself could stand? In which case why did the male one survive, since Rand is supposedly stronger than Nynaeve? I don't know how to explain it.

 

My guess is that the female Choedan Kal melted because of the strain placed on it by being forced to be the one that constricted saidin. It's all uncertain--though we do know it had nothing to do with the amount drawn. Akkarin states that more saidin was drawn by a long way than saidar.

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think as far as the circle comment, it kind of works like this.

 

Say you have five women who can channel, and you are at an even or stronger power level than all of them individually.  While holding the Power, you might still be able to successfully shield them.

 

The women link.  It no longer becomes an issue of "if i cut one woman off from the Source, the circle will be broken" because the purpose of a link is to combine power, or to join the power of the women together.  So you are not trying to shield one of five linked women, you are trying to shield one woman with multiplied strength (three or four times as powerful given the linking additions) in the form of five women.  This would require you to be at LEAST as powerful as five channelers combined, or to be in the lead of your own circle.

 

If you stand that far above the circle's power level, then theoretically you could put a shield between the woman/man in the lead of the circle and cut off the entire circle I would think, though that begs the question "would the shield only affect the lead of the circle or would it wrap itself around all the women in the circle at once?"