Creator vs. Dark One

[Luckers]

Didn't Rand in KOD rant on about the creator when thinking of how Logain thought that the creator had cleansed Saiding, and the world sort of shook, he felt dizzy, he had a migraine at that exact moment? I remember him also thinking that was something LTT would think about, philosophy and all that. Seems like that happens when people say the dark ones true name as well?

 

He neither felt dizzy nor had a headache. His thoughts were about the Creator being a gardener that would not cry if his flowers failed. At first he thinks it is LTT's thought, because he never thinks about the Creator that way, but then he feels LTT nodding along, as if listening to the thoughts of another person. In truth the thoughts were Moridin's.

 

the Creator is the being that created the wheel, the lace, the pattern and everything.  he also created the DO. automatically making him imprisioned but laying within the lace the ability for the people and creatures he created to choose which side they wanted, good or bad.

 

We do not know that the Creator created the Dark One--indeed, that seems to go directly against everything we've learnt. As for him imprisoning the Dark One, that itself is somewhat suspect. The Dark One is excluded from the circle of reality, certainly, but exclusion is a different reality to imprisonment. If you re-read my post on page one I covered this in much more detail.

 

we learned through Rand, using a Portal stone and chats with sightblinder, that the DR can side and has sided with the shadow before.

 

The Dragon has never sided with the Shadow before. It was Ishamael that said this, by the by, not the Dark One, and RJ himself stated that it was false, adding 'you believed Ishamael? He is a lying liar that lies.'

 

Betrayer wasn't sealed in with the 13 forsaken but is obviously in with that group and i beleive he's also channeling the True Source.  i'm thinking that this character is either Luc/Slayer or Moridin.  Osan'gar is quoted saying that Moridin was mad with power before they were sealed in the prision.  now i don't know if they is including Moridin, but i've always felt that this statement was to set Moridin as a seperate character from the forsaken as Nea'blis.

 

Elan Morin Tedronai is Ishamael--and later becomes Moridin after he dies in the Stone of Tear and recycled into a new body. He was sealed in with the other Forsaken, but only partially, able to gain freedom to varying degrees on 40 year cycles. At times he was able to walk free completely solid, and at others he appeared as a flickering image, barely there.

 

Once again though, Slayer is not Ishamael. Slayer is a combination of Luc Mantear, and Andoran lord and Rand's uncle, and Isam Mandragoran, a Malkieri and Lan's cousin. You mentioned this in another thread and i went into much more detail, if you are interested in learning more.

[Red2111]

true about mentioning it in a different thread.  i posted this thought in this thread before reading the others.

 

 

it was in CoT that Rand started rambling on about the Creator, then blaiming it on LTT during hsi first meeting with Logain.  he could do further ramblings in KoD that i haven't gotten to yet, but i certaintly remember that happening in CoT.

 

 

where is it in the books that it is revealed the DO in Rand, Perrin and Matt's dreams is actually Ishamael?  i never second guessed that being Sightblinder, trying to influincing the three ta'veran. though it being one of the Forsaken posing as the DO doesn't surprise me, seeing as they've done it more than once before to Rand.

[Feston]

Concerning your question, it was in The Dragon Reborn. It was after Rand stabbed Ba'alzamon, and Mat thought it was the Dark One that Rand killed. Moiraine said it was only Ishamael ("Only" be used very loosely here). Not once did Ba'alzamon/Ishamael claim to be the Dark One. In fact, somewhere in The Dragon Reborn, someone laughed at Rand for thinking Ba'alzamon was the Dark One.

[Red2111]

i thought Ba'alzamon was just another name for the DO.  in fact i thought people refer to that as his 'true name' type thing.  the one that if you say it, it's suppose to turn his attention on you.

[Luckers]

it was in CoT that Rand started rambling on about the Creator, then blaiming it on LTT during hsi first meeting with Logain.  he could do further ramblings in KoD that i haven't gotten to yet, but i certaintly remember that happening in CoT.

 

Yes, your quite correct. Sorry.

 

i thought Ba'alzamon was just another name for the DO.  in fact i thought people refer to that as his 'true name' type thing.  the one that if you say it, it's suppose to turn his attention on you.

 

That's what the characters thought too, but in truth the man who called himself ba'alzamon was Ishamael. Whether he had appropriated the Trolloc name for the Dark One in order to scare people, or that the Trollocs had been referring to him to begin with (Heart of Dark could describe Ishamael) and that people go confused, we don't know... myself i believe the latter. It would seem too presumptuos to claim the Dark Ones name, and i don't see the Dark One putting up with it.

[Asmo]

What people referred to as Ba'alzamon in the first 3 books and they thought it was the Dark One was in fact Ishamael. It was only until the end of the Dragon Reborn when Rand Callandor'd Ishamael that they realize the one that they've been fighting was not the Dark One, only one of the Forsaken (although Moiraine had her suspicions IIRC). Since then the name Ba'alzamon was dropped altogether, so I'm guessing it was a title exclusively held by Ishamael, and not by the Dark One as well.

[Harmless Bandit]

Concerning your question, it was in The Dragon Reborn. It was after Rand stabbed Ba'alzamon, and Mat thought it was the Dark One that Rand killed. Moiraine said it was only Ishamael ("Only" be used very loosely here). Not once did Ba'alzamon/Ishamael claim to be the Dark One. In fact, somewhere in The Dragon Reborn, someone laughed at Rand for thinking Ba'alzamon was the Dark One.

 

When Rand faced Bel'al he went on (kinda boasting) about how he was not afraid of a Forsaken, seeing he had faced Ba'alzamon, the Dark One himself (that's what Rand believed). Bel'al reacts kind of like 'Really, you truly know nothing'.

 

IIRC, after killing what he believed to be the Dark One, Rand thinks [wrongly] that he has won the Last Battle, but Moiraine bursts his bubble, pointing out that the Dark One would not leave merely a human body.

[Luckers]

There are other references. Lanfear sneering at ba'alzamon yet worshiping the Dark One when she meets Mat. Lanfear speaking harshly to ba'alzamon in TAR, yet swearing she holds true to her oaths when Perrin sees them in tDR. Verin's little High Chant of 'name hidden within a name shrouded by a name' etc.

[Red2111]

i had noticed that the referance to the B name for the DO had been dropped. so i have to agree with you guys that it is Ishamael using it to cause chaos :)

 

though using Lanfear as an example of proof (yet swearing she holds true to her oaths when Perrin sees them in tDR) i have to take with a MAJOR grain of salt.

 

Lanfear was always attracted to power and only held true to the person who held the strongest and biggest stick.  she was also blinded, in part, by her love for LTT.  her saying to Rand that "With these we could challenge the DO and creator ourselves and re-make the world in our image" is proof alone to that.