Taim: Third Age Born--New Chosen.

[Luckers]

So, given the recent reflux of Taim theories i figured someone should put down the Third Age--New Chosen theory. Essentially it states that Taim was born a Third Age man, was trained by Ishamael before being sent out to train other darkfriends in preparation for Tarmon Gai'don. It then goes on to suggest that in light of his success he has been raised full Chosen by Shaidar Haren--possibly with or without Moridin's knowledge. I will try to go through this as methodically as possible because it touches on a number of seperate points, so please bear with me as i struggle. Lol.

 

The Origins of Mazrim Taim

 

Ok, ignoring the suggestions that he is Be'lal or Moridin--I'm sure we all know the arguments for and against there--lets assume Taim is who he says he is. According to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years.

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why i set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth i believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. Its not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what i suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tSR), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

Why do I believe Taim is one such? For starters we know that Ishamael did it before, during the Trolloc Wars, so it makes sense that he would do it again. Secondly we have Taim's mannerisms--comments like 'so-called Aiel', the use of the lightning bolt sigil favoured by Sammael and Be'lal, the colouring of the tiles, the use of the Lord of Chaos comment--all of which imply, since we are assuming here that he is not a recycled Chosen, significant long term exposure to the Forsaken and their mannerisms.

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use to much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

So that, according to this theory, is Taim's origins. From there i believe he was commanded to announce himself Dragon by Ishamael and perform attrocities to spread and heighten fear of the Dragon. Certainly thats implied by the few comments we have about his actions in that time, of what he did to Bashere's emesaries.

 

Why Would The Dark One Raise Any New Chosen?

 

Firstly, we know that around book ten the Dark One was feeling remarkably disatisfied with his Chosen. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceble in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annialation was no longer availiable.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reigning them in tightly under Moridin, Soulbinding Cyndane and Moghedian, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin--and, I would suggest, raising Taim Chosen. It makes sense, Taim is the nearest thing this Age has to an Age of Legends level of training that the Dark One could find. He is strong in the power, and has been massively successful in gathering and training darkfriend channelers.

 

So their is a need for a reforming of power, and Taim fits as closely to being a viable candidate as any Third Ager ever could, but what evidence is there?

 

Why Do People Suggest He Has Been Raised?

 

It began with events in KoD--specifically the attack on the manor in Tear. Someone disguised as Sammale, yet with the Chosen Mark sent one hundred thousand Trollocs against Rand--and clearly against the better thoughts of the Shadow Coffee Club.

 

Now this didn't seem to make any sort of sense. The Forsaken just got back from having an encounter with Rand's channeling cadre. They know the type of power he has about him, and they know he has both the Choedan Kal and Callandor, and would have no reason not to have run and grabbed them the second Trollocs were sensed (even if he didn't, they would have expected that he would).

 

These people one and all know what the Power can achieve in battle. By all rights that action, from any of them, would be the dumbest thing ever. They had to know it wouldn't work, and all it would do is sharpen Rand's attention towards the north--they know this, its why Trolloc activity became so... quiet. They want Rand and all the Light focussed on struggling with each other, not aware of the threat to the north. It makes no sense.

 

Here enters Taim. We know that less than three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking to learn Rand's location--and yes, he didn't get it from Logain, but even assuming one of Logain's men isn't a plant then there are 51 Aes Sedai who directly stated their intention to play on the rift between Logain and Taim who could have revealed it.

 

From there, the timing is perfect. Three days, time to go to the Trollocs, command them into the Ways, have them travel the Ways, leave at Stedding Shangtai, and make the trip from there down into northern Tear and the manor.

 

Furthermore, Taim is a man well known for presenting himself with Forsaken characteristics. Where the actual Chosen prefer more stylistic disguises, such as appearing made of fire, or silvery light that hides everything, of that trick of the power that made Slayer's eyes slide away, Taim is much more blunt.

 

And that holds through here. The method of the attack--the point. It makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, but from Taim is makes a lot of sense. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

It matches Taim.

 

So thats it. It is an argument in the absense, but it fits.

[Snowy Dawn]

All this makes sense provided that Taim is now actually one of the Chosen, given what Moridin says in ``At the Gardens'' (KoD), viz. that the Myrdraal would only obey one of the Chosen. Taim would be a good candidate, and the DO has permanently lost two of the male chosen. You make it plausible that the DO might have chosen Taim, but would he/she/it do this behind Moridin's back I wonder?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Interesting. Its never been put like that before.

 

 

The thing that gets me is the comment that Myrdraal only take orders from the Chosen. So if the Myrdraal know to obey Taim as he has been raised to Chosen status, surely this is something that could never be slipped past the other Chosen. How would word have got to the Myrdraals without the other Chosen hearing of it? I cant believe that Shaidar Haran has been traipsing about just to let his kin know there is another Chosen to take orders from. Also I very much doubt that the Dark One would raise a Chosen behind Moridins back-it would be too much of a risk from the Dark Ones point of view-from everything Ishamael did over the thousands of years I think it would be way too much of a risk to lose him over raising a new Chosen, even if Taim does seem to be VERY successful.

 

What I think is that Taim fancies himself as Chosen. When he first meets Rand he tells Rand he sees them more as partners than employer and employee. When Taim posed as the Dragon Reborn he would surely have aquired a lust for a title as notable as the one he was usurping, pretending to be the Dragon Reborn would definitely have fed his greed. Since then he has interacted with the Chosen directly, many-if not all-of which were not that much stronger in the Power than him. Adding all that together I get that he wishes to be Chosen, yes, but surely if he had been raised we would have found out by now, unless he was raised late in KoD, so late that it wasn't even revealed in the Epilogue.

 

Indeed he may be very far on his way to being raised, but I still don't think he has yet. I really cant see a new Chosen being raised without the others knowing about it and if they did we would definitely have had a reaction, be it the existing Chosen pulling themselves together without Moridin and Shaidar Haran threatening them, or the existing Chosen taking drastic measures to eliminate Taim.

[aussie_ashaman123]

How did that many shadowspawn get through the ways? It was said that the great the number travelling the ways, the quicker it will draw Machin Shin in. 1000 would draw in instantly as we know there were a lot more than 1000 trollocs. It is possible that they knew Rands location and sent them there over a few weeks, building up numbers the same way they did in the Two Rivers.

 

Taim wouldnt be made a Chosen, yes he is as strong as one, but he lacks the experience of the other Chosen, those who journeyed to the Pit of Doom and pledged their souls before the Great Lord. That is also the mark of the Chosen. I can't see Taim doing that, at least not until Rand teaches him to Travel. He is at most a highly placed Dreadlord, maybe not even that if the Chosen are willing to risk him on what could be a suicide mission.

[Rahlian]

Well, why couldn't Taim have gotten a few of his stronger DF cronies and Traveled the Trollocs to Tear?

[aevogt]

Couple things

Rahlian - Shadowspawn cannot pass through a gateway and live.  They can only be sent through the Ways.  My theory is that Mashadar got into the Ways before Shadar Logoth was destroyed in the cleansing and is now "duking it out" so to speak with Machin Shin.  With MS occupied, of possibly destroyed, the Ways are safer to travel over short distances. 

 

We also know that Padan Fain spoke with MS while he was in the ways at least twice so there is some king of intelligence there it's possible it has been contrained from attacking shadowspawn in some other manner.

 

Dreadlord - If Taim received the Chosen Mark from the DO or his proxy, SH, there would be no need to "tell" the Fades anything that could get back to the other Chosen.  The Fades would see the "Chosen Mark" and obey him.

 

The DO likes his servents to fight amongst themselves so only the strongest will number among them.  To me, it is entirely logical that he would secretly set someone against Moridin, especially if we consider Moridin's colossal and repeated failures;

 

Failure to turn the Dragon,

Failure to prevent the Cleansing of Saidin. 

 

If I'm reading the story correctly, Ishmael has never met with success.  Seems a little suspicious to me that he was even made Nae'blis

 

Now that it is obviuos that Rand is too experienced and powerful to be turned, there is no better candidate to contest with Moridin than Taim, raised and marked in secret.  All it takes is a trip to the Pit, which he could have made at any time.  If Padan Fain could make that trip, Fain could have as well. 

 

We have no evidence that he didn't know how to Travel before LOC.  His travel stained appearance could just as easily have been a ploy.  Otherwise, how did one man on foot elude an entire army of 9000 Saldean horse, hot on his trail, over several thousand miles.  That, alongside the fact that Bashere and his Saldeans arrived in Camelyn before Taim casts some doubt, for me, on the manner of arrival.

 

 

aussie_ashaman123 - Forsaken and Dreadlord are the same thing.  That is directly from the mouth of the Creator (RJ) himself.

 

I fully agree with Luckers on this one.  Further, not only is Taim is one of the Chosen, set apart from Moridin.  His purpose is to contest for the spot of Shadow Champion, against Moridin, that Rand refused.

 

[Rahlian]

Ah, right i had forgottent that, which is probably why they didnt do it...

 

Anyone know why Shadowspawn cant Travel?

[aevogt]

I think it's because when they were genetically engineered and crossed with humans, the True Power was used to blend them together.

 

Which is a good explanation for why such horrific crossbreeds are fertile instead of sterile mules that nature would dictate.

[Majsju]

We have no evidence that he didn't know how to Travel before LOC.  His travel stained appearance could just as easily have been a ploy.  Otherwise, how did one man on foot elude an entire army of 9000 Saldean horse, hot on his trail, over several thousand miles.  That, alongside the fact that Bashere and his Saldeans arrived in Camelyn before Taim casts some doubt, for me, on the manner of arrival.

 

 

 

And if he Travelled, how did he manage to leave a trail for Bashere to follow, which we know he did?

[aevogt]

 

 

It'd be a piece of cake actually.

 

Travel as far as you can walk in a day and leave a little clue like a campfire.  Bashere's trackers are bound to find it.

 

Then the next day, you know your location well enough to Travel as far as you can walk in another day and then leave another clue. 

 

Maybe spend the night at an inn and steal a horse inthe morning sto make sure they can keep just behind you.  Then let the Saldeans make it to Camelyn ahead of you to meet the Dragon Reborn.  At which time he conveniently announces an amnesty, giving you safe conduct to get close to him.

 

This theory sort of accounts for this interesting factoid.

 

Rand announces his amnesty the day Bashere shows up in Camelyn, presumably, Rand gets the idea on the spot when Bashere announces why he is there.  How is it that Taim was heading for Camelyn, with the Saldeans hot on this trail, yet they arrive a month AHEAD of Taim.  Why is he going to Camelyn in the frist place.  He has no idea that there is an amnesty on the way.  Or does he?

 

Rand has set up the farm and there are a few men out there by the time Taim shows up allegedly "rode hard and put away wet" in Camelyn.  Couldn't he have led them almost to Camelyn, traveled to the outskirts of SG, been given the Chosen mark then, and that would account for his disheveled appearance?  I don't necessarily think it happened then, but there is a pretty major time frame during which his whereabout are unknown.  Padan Fain describes his trips there as very unpleasant. 

 

Possibly, Taim gave them the slip north of Bream Wood but if they had lost the trail, why just continue on towards if you have no evidence the one you are searching for is going there.

 

 

[Snowy Dawn]

``If Padan Fain could make that trip, Fain could have as well.''

 

Unless something has changed, Padan Fain, crossed with Mordeth, is still being hunted by the Dark One. We aren't told what the big pack of dark hounds are hunting---I mean the pack that shows up in Crossroads of Twilight, but I suspect that it is Fain. Such at any rate was occurred to me when I read that passage, and nothing has happened since in KoD to change that conjecture for me. Since Padan Fain is now part Mordeth, and as Mordeth was nearly defined by his opposition to the Dark One, I don't think that Fain would make the journey to Shayol Ghul, esp. after what happened to him when Ishamael carted him off there to shape him into a hunter of the Dragon Reborn. (It was to Shayol Ghul that Ishamael took Padan Fain, yes?) Fain is evil, but not an evil that serves the Dark.

[Luckers]

You make it plausible that the DO might have chosen Taim, but would he/she/it do this behind Moridin's back I wonder?

 

An interesting question, and one i don't know the answer too. Certainly Moridin presents himself to the other Forsaken as if he has no idea, but he is a master manipulator. That being said, the Dark One is all that and more. So no, i don't really have a problem with him going behind Moridin's back--given his jealous nature, and the fact that he is being forced to rely on his Chosen far too much, it even makes sense that he wouldn't.

 

But yeah, we don't know for sure.

 

The thing that gets me is the comment that Myrdraal only take orders from the Chosen. So if the Myrdraal know to obey Taim as he has been raised to Chosen status, surely this is something that could never be slipped past the other Chosen. How would word have got to the Myrdraals without the other Chosen hearing of it?

 

The Chosen Mark is not simply a token of authority, it actually compels obedience in the Shadowspawn. They sense its presense, and they are forced to obey anyone who has it.

 

What I think is that Taim fancies himself as Chosen. When he first meets Rand he tells Rand he sees them more as partners than employer and employee. When Taim posed as the Dragon Reborn he would surely have aquired a lust for a title as notable as the one he was usurping, pretending to be the Dragon Reborn would definitely have fed his greed. Since then he has interacted with the Chosen directly, many-if not all-of which were not that much stronger in the Power than him. Adding all that together I get that he wishes to be Chosen, yes, but surely if he had been raised we would have found out by now, unless he was raised late in KoD, so late that it wasn't even revealed in the Epilogue.

 

Well, we need not actually have heard about it. The Mark is undetectable to any but Shadowspawn and we have never seen him around Shadowspawn--and if he was raised, the main reason was because the Dark One needed people other that the original Forsaken--the point would be about providing a balance of power, do it makes sense that the Forsaken would not be informed.

 

How did that many shadowspawn get through the ways? It was said that the great the number travelling the ways, the quicker it will draw Machin Shin in. 1000 would draw in instantly as we know there were a lot more than 1000 trollocs. It is possible that they knew Rands location and sent them there over a few weeks, building up numbers the same way they did in the Two Rivers.

 

Well no, it isn't. The Forsaken Pow-Wow over the issue took place about two days prior to the attack, and Moridin spoke of it with immediacy. The whole force went through at the same time.

 

That being said, we are not entirely sure why Machin Shin didn't act--but we do have some evidence about it. Ever since ecountering Padan Fain we've witnessed a sequence of changes in Machin Shin. Beginning with letting Fain go it progresses with Machin Shin waiting at Waygates, and trying to force itself out--and with a relative degree of success in tGH.

 

So yes, such a marked degree of change over such a short time--and then its been nearly a year and a half since we last saw it. So we don't know what its changed into, or why specifically it didn't attack, but there is room for... wierdness there.

 

Taim wouldnt be made a Chosen, yes he is as strong as one, but he lacks the experience of the other Chosen, those who journeyed to the Pit of Doom and pledged their souls before the Great Lord. That is also the mark of the Chosen. I can't see Taim doing that, at least not until Rand teaches him to Travel. He is at most a highly placed Dreadlord, maybe not even that if the Chosen are willing to risk him on what could be a suicide mission.

 

Why not? Alviarin had, and she had no knowledge of how to travel. Padan Fain had too, prior to everything. And he has been remarkably successful in all of his endevours on behalf of the Shadow, dating over a 12 year period--which by the way is longer than Demandred when he was made Chosen, and likely others besides.

 

Well, why couldn't Taim have gotten a few of his stronger DF cronies and Traveled the Trollocs to Tear?

 

Shadowspawn can't survive travelling, and besides... men channeling as a group is a blunt arrow pointing at Taim.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

If I'm reading the story correctly, Ishmael has never met with success

UNQUOTE

 

WHAT??? As I mentioned earlier, Ishamael caused the downfall of Artur Hawkwing, while managing to pull it off without anyone knowing it was him at the time. he made Hawkwing attack Tar Valon, and made him refuse Healing on his deathbed. That caused the greatest empire ever seen to crumble-Artur was even stronger Ta'veren than Rand. How can that not be success? If Hawkwings empire hadn't crumbled then things would be very different.

[aussie_ashaman123]

Ive never been to sure of that. it Couldve been Ishy making things up. Ive always seen that someone like Mordeth caused the Fall.

[aevogt]

He had some success with Hawkwing true, but the Twoer was still standing when Hawkwing died.

 

Lately though, unless there is some other plan afoot, as was the case with Demandred and Chaos, Moridin hasn't been very effective.

 

 

[Aemon raHal]

QUOTE

If I'm reading the story correctly, Ishmael has never met with success

UNQUOTE

 

WHAT??? As I mentioned earlier, Ishamael caused the downfall of Artur Hawkwing, while managing to pull it off without anyone knowing it was him at the time. he made Hawkwing attack Tar Valon, and made him refuse Healing on his deathbed. That caused the greatest empire ever seen to crumble-Artur was even stronger Ta'veren than Rand. How can that not be success? If Hawkwings empire hadn't crumbled then things would be very different.

 

Where do people get the idea that Hawkwing was a stronger Ta'veren than Rand?

I'm currently on a reread of The Dragon Reborn, and early in the book it's said (by an Aes Sedai I think) that Rand is much stronger than Hawkwing.

 

I'll try and find who said it and when, and post it.

But are there other references saying that Hawkwing was stronger, because it's not the first time I've read that here!

 

 

 

Anyway, back to topic - I like Luckers' theory.

To be honest, there is enough room to make Taim pretty much anything in Book 12, but this theory does make sense.

 

The DO does need to promote some 3rd agers - to replace others and lead the armies of shadowspawn, darkfriends and channelers, and Taim is the perfect candidate.

It could be done behind the 'original' Forsaken's back to keep them on their toes.

 

But why haven't we met any 3rd age Chosen throughout the series?

Is it that the 'original' Forsaken just plot and meet together (leaving out any new additions) because they have no respect for the (possible) 3rd age Chosen?

 

The DO is not an idiot... I'd expect him to have appointed more Chosen, but would he have hidden them all from The Originals?

 

 

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

Isn't the "No touchy!" order re Rand still standing? In case it is, then it's pretty irresponsible, and stupid actually - since the DO will find out eventually - for Taim to order that attack. Rather strange for a newly appointed Chosen to risk his position and life like that (but ok for non-Chosen Taim).

[Bob T Dwarf]

Taim wouldnt be made a Chosen, yes he is as strong as one, but he lacks the experience of the other Chosen, those who journeyed to the Pit of Doom and pledged their souls before the Great Lord. That is also the mark of the Chosen. I can't see Taim doing that, at least not until Rand teaches him to Travel. He is at most a highly placed Dreadlord, maybe not even that if the Chosen are willing to risk him on what could be a suicide mission.

 

Why not? Alviarin had, and she had no knowledge of how to travel. Padan Fain had too, prior to everything. And he has been remarkably successful in all of his endevours on behalf of the Shadow, dating over a 12 year period--which by the way is longer than Demandred when he was made Chosen, and likely others besides.

 

Shaidar Haran gave Alviarin a mark that indicated she was his personal property.  His pet, if you will.  She did not receive anything approaching the mark given one of the "Chosen".

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Yes, the Tower was still standing. That isn't my point. the point is Ishamael was successful in bringing down the strongest Ta'veren of all time. Granted he didn't manage to kill two birds with one stone, but Artur Hawkwings downfall wa definitely a success on the Shadows part and a victory that was down to Ishamael alone.

 

As for people saying Hawkwing being stronger Ta'veren than Rand, it has been mentioned many times that Rand is the strongest Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing. Its been said many times, Moiraine being the first one to say it

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 12:38:35 AM

Quote

Taim wouldnt be made a Chosen, yes he is as strong as one, but he lacks the experience of the other Chosen, those who journeyed to the Pit of Doom and pledged their souls before the Great Lord. That is also the mark of the Chosen. I can't see Taim doing that, at least not until Rand teaches him to Travel. He is at most a highly placed Dreadlord, maybe not even that if the Chosen are willing to risk him on what could be a suicide mission.

 

Why not? Alviarin had, and she had no knowledge of how to travel. Padan Fain had too, prior to everything. And he has been remarkably successful in all of his endevours on behalf of the Shadow, dating over a 12 year period--which by the way is longer than Demandred when he was made Chosen, and likely others besides.

 

 

Shaidar Haran gave Alviarin a mark that indicated she was his personal property.  His pet, if you will.  She did not receive anything approaching the mark given one of the "Chosen".

 

I was speaking of the trip to Shayol Ghoul Bob. That should have been pretty obvious.

[Cybertrolloc]

And that holds through here. The method of the attack--the point. It makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, but from Taim is makes a lot of sense. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

It matches Taim.

 

So thats it. It is an argument in the absense, but it fits.

That LoC scene with Rand, Taim, Avienda and the Gray Man was cool but weird. Curse Rand's PoV, he never notices anything you want him to ;)

 

I don't know that it makes that much sense from Taim either. He's dismissive of conventional warfare, the only thing he could depend on is Rand doing something dumb (which Rand does, at least it had zazz and neat new weaves). Taim showed us how channelers can protect an area from even other channelers at Dumai's Wells, and he definitely knows that Rand has channelers with him (let alone Callandor, the key, etc...) We know that Rand had already decided his course before the attack and didn't change his plans because of it, and that everybody is chafing under Moridin's don't kill Rand order.

 

I wonder if it's unthinkable that Taim could have put that army together without a Chosen mark. He can at least do some rudimentary compulsion, but that would involve it taking more time than travel to SL and bark a few orders. We don't really know the specifics involved in getting that many Shadowspawn together at once either...I think we have a full assortment of Trolloc clans represented and that might be important.

 

Based on what's in the books, I'm not going to attempt a full life and times of Mazrim Taim. I'll go with Dark before LoC meet with Rand, 13 + 13 being probable, but not up to venturing into too much else right now.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I was speaking of the trip to Shayol Ghoul Bob. That should have been pretty obvious.

 

What should be obvious, is that if her trip to SG had resulted in any sort of mark bestowed by the DO, Shaidar Haran would not have marked her later.  The only mark she has is the one SH gave her, and as the quote from Jordan that I posted makes clear, she is not any kind of "Chosen".

 

She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

[aevogt]

Alviarin has never been to the Pit of Doom.  She was very possibly one of te Sisters at the Darkfriend meeting at the beginning of TGH, which means she has been to Shayol Ghul, but that does not necessarily mean she walked the path down into the Mountain.

 

She tells Fain only that she had heard about it, probably from another BA Sister who had made the trip.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Agreed.

 

I'd say she definitely was one of those at the big DF Soiree`.  As we see with Bors/Carridin later.  All that trip bought them was a whole lot of mutually contradictory grief.

[Majsju]

As for people saying Hawkwing being stronger Ta'veren than Rand, it has been mentioned many times that Rand is the strongest Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing. Its been said many times, Moiraine being the first one to say it

 

And Moiraine and the others were around when Hawkwing lived to measure his strength as ta'veren, and compare it to Rand?

 

When they say Rand is the strongest ta'veren since hawkwing, it does not mean hawkwing was stronger. It means that Rand is at least as strong, quite possibly stronger. There is no way for anyone in the books to know which is the stronger. Though the fact that Rand is fated to go up against the DO should make him the best bet.