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RJ Panicking?


trakand_01
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So, I'm just starting book 10, i'm actually on the prologue still, i'm that early in it. I've been reading these forums for a couple years now (previously under another name until i forgot my logins), and so i know the general gist of what is to come, but despite having read book 10 once before, i can't remember much else.

 

So for the past 9 books i've been thinking 'Ooooh, where's Demandred? Where's Semirhage?' because they are the two that we havent even had the vaguest idea where they were. I've also though 'who's Cyndane, is she lanfear?' (well, i would have been doing if i hadnt read the spoiler a year or so ago!!)

 

And all of a sudden, in the last 3 chapters - last 2 of book 9 and the prologue in book 10, we have Cyndane thinking about her time with the 'finns, amongst other lanfear-memories, Tuon has a vile Truth-Speaker who is a) black, b) harsh and c) not seanchan, and Alsalam has 'completely disappeared' according to Ituralde, and his every order seems intended to simply cause chaos.

 

So, i wonder where Semirhage and Demandred are?! I know RJ said we 'hadnt physically met' Demandred yet, and that's true, we've only heard of Alsalam, never met him.

 

Seeing as over the first 9 books we had Graendal, Sammael, Lanfear, Asmodean, Balthamel, Aginor, (Aran'gar, Osan'gar - although i can never remember which is which), Moghedian, Mesaana, Rahvin, Ishamael all appear, and either die or at the least reveal who / where they are, and now, with 2 books left we've only just 'found' Semi and possibly Demandred, do you think RJ suddenly got to the end of book 9 and thought "oh god, i've only got 2400 pages left, and i've not brought Semi or Demandred back into it yet!! Quick!"??

 

Or do you think he's saving the best for last?

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Guest Dreadlord

I certainly hope hes saving the best till last, especially with Demandred. Although I was disappointed in him at the end of the Cleansing, Demandred is the only male Forsaken who hasnt snuffed it yet. Plus I think the name Demandred is great. Now I remember in one of the late books Aran'gar said to Osan'gar "It was your job to watch Al'Thor, yours and Demandreds." From that i came up with a theory that in book 12 Demandred will impersonate Rand and go into the Black Tower, and Logain will discover Demandred and kill him. Although I would be dissapointed if Demandred doesnt do some good stuff first. Demandred needs to do some big stuff in book 12. Like capture Min, or even better capture Perrin and turn him to the Dark mwa ha ha ha

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I paid particular attention to the meeting where she said it was Osan'gar / Demandred's responsibility to watch Rand, and they didnt know where he'd gone (he was in Far Madding).

 

I thought, well how would Demandred watch him? It seems pretty pointless and an overly concentrated effort to have 2 forsaken, or even one forsaken and a seperate forsaken's minions in the same place (all in the black tower) but then I read a passage where Kisman thinks about having met Demandred and taken direct orders from him (kill Al'Thor), so i thought that it was likely there were two asha'man linked to a forsaken (one of them being Dashiva / Osan'gar himself) so as to increase the chance of one of them being able to travel with him at all times.

 

Which makes it pretty ridiculous to think that they all got caught up in the Sun Palace explosion thing. Surely if there are two of you, and you are trying to 'keep tabs on' someone, ONE of you would attack him, and the other would continue to keep up the guise of an ally, in case all goes wrong?!

 

The fact that they dont know where he went however (until the cleansing) puts the three that went with him (Narishma, Flinn and Hopwil) into the clear.

 

I dont hold with the 'Taim is Demandred's puppet' thing. I fully believe Taim is a DF, but I think it's a decoy. We are MEANT to think he's Demandred's man, so RJ (or now BS) can surprise us later. It seems a little hard to believe that with Osan'gar already one of the Asha'man, Demandred would feel the need to have another man, so high up, so obvious. Kisman, fine, he's a lesser Asha'man, but Taim is too obvious, and overkill to boot; two massive fishes in a small pond.

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Demandred needs to do some big stuff in book 12. Like capture Min, or even better capture Perrin and turn him to the Dark mwa ha ha ha

 

Which makes me wonder, if someone is turned to the Shadow, can they be turned back?

 

13 Aes Sedai channeling through 13 Ogier.  heh heh heh

 

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I like the theory that Taim was turned forcibly to the dark by a circle and myrdraal. He is a Saldean and there are thirteen Aes Sedai with the borderland army who are advising them to do something which is..well, stupid.

 

After Taim "escaped" the White Tower early on he disappeared, perhaps to the borderlands. Perhaps he didn't escape so much as he was taken by the Black Ajah.

 

I'm not convinced that Demandred is in charge of the Black Tower really.

 

We'll see, I guess.

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I always thought that only a Channeler could be forcibly turned by the Myrdraal/Black Ajah circle?  Does anyone know for sure?

 

You are correct.  I had forgotten but according to Sheriam, it is only a weakness for channelers.

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No, I don't see any panicing at all.  To the contrary is seems to me that RJ has wisely spread the Forsaken out over the couse of the series.  I think its great that until the end of book 11 there are still two Forsaken that we know very little about and that going into the final book there is still one who is yet to overtly play a major role.  It allows RJ to continually keep hitting us with suprises right up until the end.

 

I really hope that Demandred and Semirhage will play a huge role in AMoL but its hard to say because all Forsaken are not created equal.  It seems that RJ intened some to play multiple roles and to be the principal villans of the series, while others are given a more singular purpose and are disposed of once this purpose has been accomplished.  Examples of the latter are the trio that I like to call "The Throw Away Forsaken" (keep in mind I'm talking about RJ's intent for them not the DO's).

 

Rhavin: His sole purpose in the story was to discredit the Trankand name and thus force Morgase out of Camylen and ultimaly into Perrin's crew, and to make it difficult for Elayne to secure the Lion Throne.  Once Rhavin has set these events into motion he is balefired right out of the story.

 

Be'lal: As the most underused Forsaken of them all it is hard to say exactly what his purpose was.  However, I would say that it was introduce us to the fact that many of the Forsaken has taken powerfull political positions in Randland and to forshadow things to come ie Sammeal, Messana, Greandel and even Rhavin all of whom have been revealed to have positions of great power and who have much more consistantly and effectivly been thorns in the side of The Light.  Again once this purpose is served he is balefired right out of the series.

 

Asmodean:  His purpose is by far the most clear.  RJ needed for The Dragon Reborn to become a skilled and crafty channeler but unfortunatly there were no good and/or sane male channelers availabe to teach him.  So what is the solution?  Have on the male Forsaken put into a positon where he is forced teach Rand.  Again once he has gotten Rand off to a good start he is taken  out of the the story by God knows what means (none the less, it should be mentioned that Asmo does continue to play a huge part in the WOT mythos and despite his small part in the story he has become the most talked about Forsaken for obvious reasons).

 

Sammeal almost fits into this category as well but I really can't call him throw away as he did play a much bigger role than these other three.  None the less, I think the real purpose of the Sammeal storyline (and oh man do I love that storyline) was to get Rand to Shadar Logoth so that he and Moridin could form their bond.  Once this purpose was fulfilled Sammeal quickly became, in the words of RJ himself, toast.  I love that RJ used Shadar Logoth for this scene because having Sammeal consumed by the fog was a clever way to permenantly eliminate one fo the Forsaken without the use of balefire which by that point had been a little over played.

 

Osan'gar is another Forsaken who I would not call throw away but whose singualr purpose was clear, to make the climactic attempt on Rand's life at the end of PoD.  Interestin,gly Osan'gar gets to hang around for a while after his purpose if fulfilled.  None the less, the very next time we seen O'G the smack goes down on him.  Of couse O'G was not killed by balefire and thus it is possible that the Aginor/Osan'gar soul will be back, however, I'm guessing that the DO doesn't give third chances.  Moreover, the DO said he regretted not being able to bring Rhavin back because Rhavin had served him well.  I'm not sure that the same can be said of O'G as his attempt on Rand's life was in direct oppositon to the DO's orders.  So in short, don't expect to see the third comming of Aginor in AMoL; he has served his purpose and his is finished.

 

This leads me to wonder if Demi and Semi will play large roles in AMoL or if they will similarly be but to more singular purposes and the quickly eliminated.  I think that Demi definitly will play a major role but I'm not sure about Semi.   Her singular purpose may very well have been to relieve Rand of his hand and it may be this and not Semi, herself, that will play a major role in AMoL.  I fear the Semi may spend the rest of the series in the captivity of the Light.  It would be interesting if she ends up giving info to the Light in order to save her own skin and is taken out by Asmodean's very killer under similar circumstances and this is how the identitiy of the killer is finally revealed. 

 

So why do I have such low hopes for Semi?  Manily because with only one book left there just isn't room for really developing a buch of Forsaken.  With Semi's cover now blown I don't see where there is much left for her to do.  In AMoL I see the major players among the Forsaken being Demandred, Graendal, Cyndane, Moridin and Moghedian (sp).  Why Mogi?  Well she seemed to have a very singualr purpose ie teaching Nyn and Elayne all those wonderfull channeling tricks, however, she has been kept alive so I suspect RJ still has some greater purpose for her. I will be very interested to see what that might be.  Then again, he may only have kept Mogi around to expand a little more on the idea of mind traps, kind of a way to introduce us to the concept without yet revealing that a mysterious channeler named Cyndane has been placed in one. 

 

I see Egwene's current storyline being resolved about half way through AMoL, it will climax with the Seanchan invasion on the White Tower and end with a reunion of the the tower and repelling of the Seanchan who retreat with a few AS da'maine (sp) in tow, Mesanna among them.  She will then be taken back to Seanchan where she spends the rest of her days as an obscure da'maine (sp).  There was a time when I hoped to see a real knock-down, drag-out fight between Egwene and Mesanna similar to Rand vs Rhavin but I think the da'maine theory has much more poetic justice.  I think Egwene should still get her knock-down, drag-out fight but with Aran'gar instead of Messana.  She does have a score to settle with A'G afterall.  I also hope to see a similar confrontation between Moiraine and Graendal.

 

OK I guess I got a bit off subject but these are my thoughts on the Forsaken.     

 

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I like the theory Logain will kill Demandred and for that to happen the best place for it is in the Black tower. Taim seems to know the names for lost Talents and the test to see if a man can channel, how and why would he have learnt that as a false dragon? who taught him when no other men could channel at the time except Taim, Logain and Rand. He couldn't have learnt it on his own without finding someone before rand asked him to look and no-one's been mentioned. Taim clearly has to be forsaken or linked very closely to Demandred.

 

I definately think Matt is going to be the one to pull Egwene out of the Tower it's his job to keep rescuing her and I wouldn't be surprised if it's done at the head of the Seanchean with a battery of cannons. He still has to learn the illumintors secrets he's going to marry the Empress of seanchan and is immune to direct channeling with his medallion. He's all queued up to be the new Arthur Hawkwing (Battle savvy, hates Aes Sedai fated to marry into the same family and lead the same armies)

 

But no I don't think RJ panicked at all, but planned quite an exciting final book.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest Dreadlord

The Taim being Forsaken theory is being killed in about 20 other threads. I personally think Taim has been working for Demandred from the start, right after the Black Ajah released him when he was about to be gentled.

 

Although there are still several Forsaken to be taken care of in the last book I hope RJ/BS will put enough time in the book aside for the Rand/Moridin situation. Rand will find out just who Moridin is before long, I think, and I cant wait to see what happens when a One Power channeller fights  True Power channeller. Toss in Rand being Ta'veren and the link between them, and I think it could end up being one of the best bits of the book.

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The Taim being one of the old scholl forsaken is indeed wiped out. Taim as a newly raised Forsaken has a lot in support of it--but aside from that Taim's comments reguarding his gathering and training male channelers suggests a much longer association with the shadow than in the instance of him being free.

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    Just a thought. RJ may have panicked, but I don't think it would be with any "major" character. By major, I mean through the entire series the forsaken are brought up constantly. I agree with lots of posts here saying he saved the best for last. Why? Obviously for a major part. I won't even try to guess what because there is just too many ways, but if RJ said he could do it in one more book he would have a direction and a way to accomplish it. The best part of his books have always been his surprises. We as posters like to have our little opinions, but we will all bend to the master at the end of Book 12.

    If he did panick it would have been a minor character that he may have thought was going to go one way and forgot to mention it.

 

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I don't think he panicked at all, I think originally he may have thought to write thirteen books, but as the series grew longer and his health took a turn for worse I think he thought to end the series sooner. I don't think he ended up cutting anything important out, but I think some things will have been shortened slighly and the word count will inevitably be less because with one book instead of two you lose all the reminders and explanations that the first few chapters are usually laden with.

 

As for...

but we will all bend to the master at the end of Book 12.

... not me dude, I'm straight.

 

lol

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I don't think he panicked at all, I think originally he may have thought to write thirteen books, but as the series grew longer and his health took a turn for worse I think he thought to end the series sooner. I don't think he ended up cutting anything important out, but I think some things will have been shortened slighly and the word count will inevitably be less because with one book instead of two you lose all the reminders and explanations that the first few chapters are usually laden with.

 

 

No, RJ had already anounced that book 12 would be that final volume several months before he was diagnosed with Amyloidosis.  Therefore, it was not a matter of trying to bring the series to a premature end because of his failing health. 

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