Asmodean/Herid Fel

[benr]

When I first started looking at this, I wondered if Fel could still be alive, but the passage seems clear that Idrien is convinced that the remains belong to Fel.  It's not 100%, though.  In any case, the fact is that Rand's two "teachers" were eliminated within a fairly short time.  Could it be that they were done by the same entity?  The most convincing arguments for Asmodean's killer seem to be for Graendal, which would make her the prime suspect for Fel as well.  The question becomes, then, where was Fel leading Rand that it needed to be stopped, or was it just to eliminate an ally?  The reason that I was looking for evidence that Fel was still alive was because I thought he could be a DF or more.  Previous discussions of Fel's last note didn't touch on the second part; which told Rand to not bring Min again.  The reason that she was too pretty could be true, but if Fel was more than he seemed, he might have recognized that Min had the ability to discern what his true goals were and was arranging events to keep that complication out of the picture.  As a budding WOT historian, I am learning to create theories and then look for evidence to support.  I could be a politician!  Debunk at will. 

[avacraft]

Graendal killed Asmo and I believe that the Golam killed Fel.  These are my opinions, though I'm pretty sure that RJ subtley confirmed Graendal killed Asmo.

Ava

[benr]

I agree.  Tho a gholam killed Fel, that answers what, not who.  They operate on the direction of one of the Forsaken.

[Nerevar]

The thing is, the Graendal did it theory is usually based on the fact that she was there as part of the Rahvin-Sammael-Lanfear-Graendal plan, not because she had interests in Andor or Cairhein. How would she have any idea of what Fel was dreaming of? Possibly Idrien, not Fel, is a darkfriend and was suspicious of what he was up to, therefore passing her suspicions up the hierarchy till Graendal or another Foresaken found out and sent the Gholam.

 

[Guest leebarr]

Fel was killed by order of a Forsaken to keep Rand from learning to much

[Bazzles]

The thing is, the Graendal did it theory is usually based on the fact that she was there as part of the Rahvin-Sammael-Lanfear-Graendal plan, not because she had interests in Andor or Cairhein. How would she have any idea of what Fel was dreaming of? Possibly Idrien, not Fel, is a darkfriend and was suspicious of what he was up to, therefore passing her suspicions up the hierarchy till Graendal or another Foresaken found out and sent the Gholam.

 

Yep I was gonna point this out. The Graendal killed Asmodean theory seems to be based on the fact that Asmodean accidentally stumbled across her, whereas Fel's murder was almost certainly premeditated, so connecting the two doesn't seem to make much sense to me, unless of course somebody other than Graendal killed Asmodean, or she did it but as a premeditated act, but let's not open that can of worms.

[Luckers]

In truth, I don't see any of the Forsaken except Ishamael realising the potential danger of the philosopher. I might suggest that Fel's murder might have been Moridin's very first action after recycling.

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

In truth, I don't see any of the Forsaken except Ishamael realising the potential danger of the philosopher. I might suggest that Fel's murder might have been Moridin's very first action after recycling.

 

I tend to agree with Luckers on this point, but I cannot prove it.  But here is my best argument, (It gets circular, so bear with me):

 

Ishamael/Morridin has been recognized as the philosopher/theologian who most clearly understand the (for lack of a better term) metaphysical aspects of the Dark One and the way he interacts with the world.  Of all the Forsaken, only Ishamael would concern himself with the ramblings of a philosopher in Cairhein.

 

The biggest hole in the Ishamael ordered the murder theory is to ask how he learned what Fel was telling Rand.  Granted Fel was the epitome of the absent minded professor, but I do not see him walking around publically discussing the philospohical issues he discussed with Rand (although he would not have thought of them as secret because he kept forgetting that Rand was the Dragon Reborn).  And even if he did discuss them publically, what are the chances that someone who heard him would recognize the importance of what Fel was discussing with Rand, and report it to one of the Forsaken.  This logic makes it more likely that one of the Forsaken was simply trying to eliminate someone that Rand was conferring with on a regular basis.  (This also lends credence to the idea that Idrian probably was a drakfriend because no one else knew that it was Fel Rand visited at the Academy.)

 

But (to come full circle on the argument) why would one of the forsaken kill one of Rand's allies who was a philosopher and not go after Rand's other (seemingly more important) allies?  Only Ishamael would have found Fel threateningly simply because he is a philosopher.

 

So there, its not a particularly strong argument, but it tracks logically.

[Luckers]

Actually i think there is sense in there. It seems to me that the first thing Moridin would do upon being recycled is to find out exactly what Rand had been up to, which would lead him to the Accademy--it was being widely talked about. And from there it makes sense for him, as a man born in a industrialized world, to investigate exactly what the Accademy was researching, and from there it makes sense to remove anyone researching any information that may prove useful in the upcoming war. There wouldn't be much--electricity and steam power take to long to implement for it to have any real effect on the ward, but Moridin would definately see the threat of a philosopher Rand spoke to often.

 

I imagine if Aludra had been there she would have been offed as well.

[Jonn]

It's a good idea to suspect Ishamael from the way you describe it. I can see that.

 

Morridin uses the gholam, right? I honestly don't remember. I vaguely recall that he does.

 

Let's look at that.

 

It's also no hard thing to assume Fel's importance to Rand, he was visiting him regularly up until his death from what I recall.

 

Easy to come by word that he's a philosopher of abstract ideology. Put two and two together.

 

I guess that works to some degree. I'm pretty sure we'll find out in some form by the end of the series the means and if not, the why of it all. Fel must have been close to something.

 

One more question...wasn't Fel torn apart into bloody bits?

 

I thought the gholam like to drink the blood.

 

A message was being sent in the killing.

[trakand_01]

Yes Fel was very much 'torn limb from limb', i think it is described as, it takes Idrien a few moments to figure out what 'the pile by the side of the desk' is, or something like that. I can't remember the exact passage but I seem to remember it being quite clear that a gholam had killed him.

 

What seems a  bit odd though, is that the gholam that is after Mat in Ebou Dar, presumably the one that Sammael sent to help Carridin, that Mat fought off when saving Elayne in the Rahad, and later it comes back and Mat meets Noal (who i'm suspicious about, at the end of book 9), doesnt rip people limb from limb. It slashes their throats. I seem to remember a gholam (probably the same one) killing the man Moridin was talking to when Aviendha felt someone watching her, when they went through the gateway from the Palace to find the Kin and use the Bowl of Winds. It said that the body fell to the floor, and seemed to be saying that the body was intact, which suggests that perhaps the throat was slit there too.

 

I dont know if it's significant, maybe each Gholam has a different way of killing, just like normal men, or maybe it killed Fel in such a way to make it more gory, but as there are two Gholam, i wondered if one slit throats, and was sent by Sammael to kill Mat, and the other ripped limb from limb, and was sent by someone else.

[JenLenaMom]

Moridin killed the man on the rooftop after watching Avi leave, he opened a gateway into him, using the true power.  The Gholam comes along after and drinks the blood.  Tylin's head was torn off completely.  Not that I'm disagreeing, there could be two but the two murders in Cairhein were blatant messages.  Barthanes was being taught a lesson and Rand was being denied his source of council.  In Ebou Dar, the Gholam killed all the people in the streets strictly to feed on.  When it did come to Tylin's bedroom looking for Mat it may have just been angry he wasn't there and killed her in frustration. 

[trakand_01]

I would imagine it was opportunistic with Tylin; if i was living off a specific thing, chocolate for example, and it was all that could sustain me, even if i was full i would likely take advantage of the situation, just in case i can't eat tomorrow :-)

 

I thought that the man was in the room with Moridin, when he killed it, I think this is a source of some confusion, expressed in another thread too. When I read that passage, I saw Avi seeing a man sillouhetted on the rooftop, leaning on the railings with both hands, whereas it says that Moridin is behind the latticework, inside a room. He is so annoyed at the 'savages' as he calls the modern-day channelers that he doesnt realise he's throttling the man with the power. The Gholam comes in afterwards and takes advantage of the man's blood...

 

you are quite right though, Moridin kills the man, not the gholam.

 

Perhaps I have picked this up from these forums, perhaps it is mentioned somewhere in the books but I thought there was some reference to there being 2 Gholams...

[JenLenaMom]

Perhaps I have picked this up from these forums, perhaps it is mentioned somewhere in the books but I thought there was some reference to there being 2 Gholams...

 

You absolutely picked that up from the thread.  We only have one (I think) POV from a Gholam and that's in Ebou Dar when it's feed on the man we just discussed. So far he hasn't given us any fond rememberances of killing Fel or Barthamens(sp?).  So it's all speculation.

[trakand_01]

you're quite right, thanks  ;D

 

Just one thing, I'm a little concerned. Mat met Noal Charin when he last fought off the gholam. Now personally, anyone who can fight off a gholam but claim not to be able to walk without a staff (mat) is either lying or exaggerating.

 

However, is Noal the little old man... 'Old... somebody' i think Sheaine called him to Carridin, a darkfriend 'ringleader' of some sort?

 

I was just a bit concerned. If he isnt, then I feel the need to take sides between him and Thom...

[JenLenaMom]

No "Old Cully" was a beggar with one eye in Ebou Dar part of the group that attacked Mat and Beslin at one of the festivals.  Noal was the other old man seen observing from time to time.  Not to say he wasn't ever involved with the shadow, he was Jain Farstridder.  According Ishmael he manipulated Jain into being used by the shadow.

[trakand_01]

Really?! How / when do we find that out?

[Guest durram laddel cham]

Book 10 I think or else somewhere during book 11.

[trakand_01]

Wowweee.

 

You know I sometimes wonder if being a spoiler-lover is good for me. I'm one of those people that flicks through the rest of the book to see if someone pops back up when they seemingly die. I read the last page when things start getting bad, to see how they end. Its my fault, I've always done it.

 

But sometimes, I wonder how much is stuff i've figured out, and how much I was told externally, and whether my reading experience would be better had i not read the spoilers. For example, before i even started this re-read, i knew that;

 

Dashiva was Whichever'gar

Taim is a darkfriend

Rand loses his hand

Moridin is Ishamael

Lanfear isnt dead

Moiraine isnt dead

There's something dodgy about Verin

 

not to mentiona few other show-stoppers.

 

but alas, I will never change!