Rand's illness

[Luckers]

I agree with Jellybelly and Inara... why lie when she can have the same affect with truth, and especially when everything but the tiniest part we can verify as truth, and that tiny part is a reasonable progression in any case.

[Jedimuppet]

Yes' date=' I already believe her. Why? Because it makes sense, with the information RJ provided us on the state of LTT over the years. I am fully aware of the fact that Semirhage may well be a liar, but in my opinion it would take the books in an interesting direction if she were telling the truth. I guess we will all find out which is the truth when AMoL comes out in a few years or so.

 

And besides, we are talking semantics. This is not science, as people, as people as we know are not reincarnated in the real world. There certainly is not any reliable research supporting it as far as I know. However, Semirhage says that this is a type of insanity that is known of in this world. This is not clairvoyance, as that could be defined as listening to external voices; (if you accept that so-called media actually DO hear voices)Rand's problem is wholly internal, he is hearing a voice inside his head that should not be there, normally. That sounds like a disease to me.

 

Of course, without Lews Therin's knowledge, there is a very real possibility that Rand could not win the LB. But his condition is still a disease, which according to Semirhage is made all the worse because of the fact that LTT is real. If that is not a plot device that can create some really interesting situations and tension, I do not know what is. Yes, I do accept what she says as true, because it makes for an interesting story.[/quote']

 

Insanity is a misperception of reality. I object to the misuse of the word insane. If the voice is real, and he's perceiving it, then he is behaving as he should.

 

Look up the webster definition and explain to me how hearing a real voice can be even remotely considered insane.

J

[Inara]

well if your going to be picky..

mad then, not insane. many people who have been called mad in their lifetimes were actually only percieving a reality that is differnt to other 'normal' people. rand's reality is real, but it is unique and not like the 'accepted' reality.

 

besides, i'm sure we can all agree that LTT is mad, having a madman continually raving in your head cant be good for your long term mental health.

[Jedimuppet]

well if your going to be picky..

mad then' date=' not insane. many people who have been called mad in their lifetimes were actually only percieving a reality that is differnt to other 'normal' people. rand's reality is real, but it is unique and not like the 'accepted' reality.

 

besides, i'm sure we can all agree that LTT is mad, having a madman continually raving in your head cant be good for your long term mental health.[/quote']

 

Agreed, but I'm only saying that his presence itself is not a symptom of madness, and that, arguably, Rand is doing very well given all that faces him. He does have a lot of issues, particularly with the hard vs strong dynamic, but he's held up very well, and is still pretty solid.

 

He's kept it together better than I could in similar situations.

J

[Inara]

oh yeah, definatly, me too.

[Jellybelly]

His presence is most definitely a symptom of madness, because it is the insanity that has caused him to appear. If Rand was not having problems with mental illness, LTT would not be there.

[Luckers]

Insanity is a misperception of reality. I object to the misuse of the word insane. If the voice is real, and he's perceiving it, then he is behaving as he should.

 

Nietzsche argued that every thought is a misperception of reality, and these days psychologists agree with him. Normality and abnormality are illusions we concocted so that we can viably move in a correct direction in the field of mental health. Questions of insanity are moot these days, now its all about examining psychological conditions, both 'sane' and 'insane' states, and the decision of wether or not to try and fix is made based on how much it affects his action and thought. Under psychological examination the voice in Rands head causes enough of a influence on Rand's thoughts and actions to be termed a psychological condition... reguardless of the fact that its a real voice.

[Jedimuppet]

Insanity is a misperception of reality. I object to the misuse of the word insane. If the voice is real' date=' and he's perceiving it, then he is behaving as he should.

[/quote']

 

Nietzsche argued that every thought is a misperception of reality, and these days psychologists agree with him. Normality and abnormality are illusions we concocted so that we can viably move in a correct direction in the field of mental health. Questions of insanity are moot these days, now its all about examining psychological conditions, both 'sane' and 'insane' states, and the decision of wether or not to try and fix is made based on how much it affects his action and thought. Under psychological examination the voice in Rands head causes enough of a influence on Rand's thoughts and actions to be termed a psychological condition... reguardless of the fact that its a real voice.

 

Nietzsche has his own tenuous relationship with sanity. Psychologists don't run around in that kind of murk today. They recognize a spectrum to be sure, but normal reactions to abnormal events are never termed insane or psychotic.

 

Abnormal responses to normal events are what you want to look at.

J

[Luckers]

Having just written a paper on psychological concepts of normality and abnormality i can tell you that only the freudian psychoanalytic aproach obeys those rules, and no one follows Freud anymore. Humanastic/Cognetive and Socialized behavioural teachings both accept Learned Responses as being the cause of the mental state, and nueroscientific responses as being the cause of the physical brain state. Even in nueroscience there is no set state of normality...

 

It's generally accepted in modern psychology that there is no actual mental state that is normal, the dismissing of homosexuality as a mental disorder resulted in that. These days the focus is on creating the most stable mindset possible. And I'm sure you will agree that Rand is not stable.

[Inara]

an award for luckers' understatement of the year!

[Luckers]

On the plus side, he's sure to be a source of wacky fun in the books.

[Jedimuppet]

Having just written a paper on psychological concepts of normality and abnormality i can tell you that only the freudian psychoanalytic aproach obeys those rules' date=' and no one follows Freud anymore. Humanastic/Cognetive and Socialized behavioural teachings both accept Learned Responses as being the cause of the mental state, and nueroscientific responses as being the cause of the physical brain state. Even in nueroscience there is no set state of normality...

 

It's generally accepted in modern psychology that there is no actual mental state that is normal, the dismissing of homosexuality as a mental disorder resulted in that. These days the focus is on creating the most stable mindset possible. And I'm sure you will agree that Rand is not stable.[/quote']

 

While the paradigm may be shifting, I'm sure you'll admit that these terms are still used by psychologists today. For instance, it is not *normal* for someone to refuse food when it is avaiblable, or similar situations.

 

The what is normal debate, and does it have anything to do with us - has been going on forever. That doesn't change the fact that there are certain baselines people who study minds look for, or there would be no point - no reference to make it possible.

 

While you can line up a bunch of scientists to say that hearing voices would be evidence of disorder, I'm not sure you coudl find any that would say hearing something that is not supposed to be there *but is*, is not a disorder. Rather, you would want to look at what special faculties or senses that individual had that made such sensing possible.

 

I still think LTT's presence in Rand's head increases as he comes closer to fulfilling his destiny. We have no evidence, other than a forsaken *known to lie in captivity* to indicate that anything is actually known about this voice phenomenon.

 

RJ sometimes uses sloppy plot devices, but to somehow charcterize speaking to a past life in a world where these lives are actually capable of waiting around in holding areas, as insane, is a jump. If it's there to be heard, someone will eventually have that Talent or end up hearing one with which they're closely connected.

 

Semhirage could be telling the truth, but that would be pretty much a first, wouldn't it?

J

[Luckers]

It's moot, the question they'd ask is not whether the voice was real, but whether rand was unstable. He is. Moreover the effect LTT is having on Rand is a quantifiable problem. If it had occured to others in a society like the age of legends they would have been institutionalized. Graendal was known for working with the mind. Renowned for it. It is no great leap that she would know of this phenomena, especially when someone would have had to have supplied Semirhage with the rest of her information.

 

I still think LTT's presence in Rand's head increases as he comes closer to fulfilling his destiny. We have no evidence, other than a forsaken *known to lie in captivity* to indicate that anything is actually known about this voice phenomenon.

 

Except what she said was exactly what is happening, and additionally we do not know that Semirhage lies in captivity. Indeed, the only quotes we have suggest the exact oposite: 'the lady of pain keeps her promises' and that she threatened her guards into letting her go, and that so far everything she has said that we can verify has been true. Moreover her whole character suggests a person who is proud of who and what she is. I would say that she speaks truthfully more then she lies. Far more.

[Jedimuppet]

It's moot' date=' the question they'd ask is not whether the voice was real, but whether rand was unstable. He is. Moreover the effect LTT is having on Rand is a quantifiable problem. If it had occured to others in a society like the age of legends they would have been institutionalized. Graendal was known for working with the mind. Renowned for it. It is no great leap that she would know of this phenomena, especially when someone would have had to have supplied Semirhage with the rest of her information.

 

I still think LTT's presence in Rand's head increases as he comes closer to fulfilling his destiny. We have no evidence, other than a forsaken *known to lie in captivity* to indicate that anything is actually known about this voice phenomenon.

 

Except what she said was exactly what is happening, and additionally we do not know that Semirhage lies in captivity. Indeed, the only quotes we have suggest the exact oposite: 'the lady of pain keeps her promises' and that she threatened her guards into letting her go, and that so far everything she has said that we can verify has been true. Moreover her whole character suggests a person who is proud of who and what she is. I would say that she speaks truthfully more then she lies. Far more.

 

Cancer has a disruptive effect on its victims psyche's; that doesn't mean it's a psychological symptom.

 

Just because something is disruptive to us, doesn't make it a symptom of a psychological disorder. I challenge you to find one person who says that if something has a destabalizing effect in your life that it must be insanity, as opposed to stress, loved ones health, etc.

 

At any rate, my opinion is (and I'll stop here, since no one shares it) is that LTT is a logical, real voice for Rand to hear in this mythology. Hearing it doesn't make him insane, and frankly he's dealing very well with debilitating pressure.

 

Oh well,

J

[Red States Rule!]

Creating a stable mindset?

 

How can this be, when the goal is to deconstruct that which is already constructed? (Pulling something aside from debates and discussions)

 

Or is stability the pace of deconstruct?

[Luckers]

Cancer has a disruptive effect on its victims psyche's; that doesn't mean it's a psychological symptom.

 

Actually it can be, or rather result in them. Nueroscience is studied by psychologists, and vice versa for the specific purpose of the fact that brain cancers, and the side effects of other cancers can present psychologically. The same goes for Syphillis, chemical depression, schitzophrenia and likely half a hundred others that i dont know. The nuero-chemical or physiological problem results in, or presents in a psychological symptom.

 

In any case, we are not talking of a physiological state. We are talking of a psychological phenomena, one that is having a destabalizing psychological effect on the mental state of the individual suffering from it.

 

Just because something is disruptive to us, doesn't make it a symptom of a psychological disorder. I challenge you to find one person who says that if something has a destabalizing effect in your life that it must be insanity, as opposed to stress, loved ones health, etc.

 

Questions of insanity are almost never answered in such a state. As i said above, the instability of the mental state is the judgement criteria for the level of response. Those whose minds are unstable to the point that it interferes with their practical function within society are institutionalized, and might be termed 'insane'. Rand, in our society, is nearing that state--no, im not saying that he can't function yet, just that its reasonable to predict that he could get there very suddenly--which is EXACTLY what Semirhage is saying could happen.

 

And moreover, given the progression with seen in Rand it is far from unreasonable that those others who have heard a real voice have collapsed psychologically, and were institutionalized as Semirhage suggested Graendal had said--Given that the rest of what Semirhage said was true, and that there is a strong viability that terminal insanity is the next step, there is not reason to think she did not speak the simple truth.

[Jedimuppet]

Cancer has a disruptive effect on its victims psyche's; that doesn't mean it's a psychological symptom.

 

Actually it can be' date=' or rather result in them. Nueroscience is studied by psychologists, and vice versa for the specific purpose of the fact that brain cancers, and the side effects of other cancers can present psychologically. The same goes for Syphillis, chemical depression, schitzophrenia and likely half a hundred others that i dont know. The nuero-chemical or physiological problem results in, or presents in a psychological symptom.

 

In any case, we are not talking of a physiological state. We are talking of a psychological phenomena, one that is having a destabalizing psychological effect on the mental state of the individual suffering from it.

 

Just because something is disruptive to us, doesn't make it a symptom of a psychological disorder. I challenge you to find one person who says that if something has a destabalizing effect in your life that it must be insanity, as opposed to stress, loved ones health, etc.

 

Questions of insanity are almost never answered in such a state. As i said above, the instability of the mental state is the judgement criteria for the level of response. Those whose minds are unstable to the point that it interferes with their practical function within society are institutionalized, and might be termed 'insane'. Rand, in our society, is nearing that state--no, im not saying that he can't function yet, just that its reasonable to predict that he could get there very suddenly--which is EXACTLY what Semirhage is saying could happen.

 

And moreover, given the progression with seen in Rand it is far from unreasonable that those others who have heard a real voice have collapsed psychologically, and were institutionalized as Semirhage suggested Graendal had said--Given that the rest of what Semirhage said was true, and that there is a strong viability that terminal insanity is the next step, there is not reason to think she did not speak the simple truth.

 

You're still putting the cart before the horse. You're saying that if your mom died, and it really destroyed you and your stability, that her dying would be a symptom of psychological distress. It can't be if the distree ensues from that event. Psychologists aren't dumb, they understand we deal with stressors, some to a better or lesser degree.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. You essentially seem to be saying if I lost an arm and went crazy over it, that my first psychological symptom would be the losing of the arm.

 

It just doesnt' make any sense.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Essentially this is a fruitless debate. Rand's behaviour will follow whatever course Jordan decides needs to be followed, whether we perceive that course to be sane or not, but, just for the sake of further debate...

 

The essential question for anyone is - does the person accurately perceive reality, and then behave appropriately within that reality?

 

So, what is Rand's "reality?"

 

He has a very "real" and entirely separate personality cohabiting his soul. He accurately perceives that reality. He was born entirely to enact the Wheel's purposes. He's come to accept that "fact." He's propesied to die as a result. He's still trying to find a way to do the job he's been given without having to die in the process.

 

Now, exactly what part of any of that is irrational or inappropriate or detached from "reality?"

[Jedimuppet]

Essentially this is a fruitless debate. Rand's behaviour will follow whatever course Jordan decides needs to be followed' date=' whether we perceive that course to be sane or not, but, just for the sake of further debate...

 

The essential question for anyone is - does the person accurately perceive reality, and then behave appropriately within that reality?

 

So, what is Rand's "reality?"

 

He has a very "real" and entirely separate personality cohabiting his soul. He accurately perceives that reality. He was born entirely to enact the Wheel's purposes. He's come to accept that "fact." He's propesied to die as a result. He's still trying to find a way to do the job he's been given without having to die in the process.

 

Now, exactly what part of any of that is irrational or inappropriate or detached from "reality?"[/quote']

 

That's been my point. He's stressed to the max, but unstable behavior is to be expected in such circumstances. The question is, if you remove the destabalizing elements from the person's life, will they revert to their previous condition. It seems very likely that Rand, left alone, would mellow out and live happily ever after. Not that that's likely to happen, of course.

 

Perceiving something that is there is only a symptom of accurate apprehension of the world, nothing more.

J

[Luckers]

That's been my point. He's stressed to the max, but unstable behavior is to be expected in such circumstances. The question is, if you remove the destabalizing elements from the person's life, will they revert to their previous condition. It seems very likely that Rand, left alone, would mellow out and live happily ever after. Not that that's likely to happen, of course.

 

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that LTT is destablizing Rand's mental state, and can potentially result in terminal insanity--just as Semi said.

 

Perceiving something that is there is only a symptom of accurate apprehension of the world, nothing more.

 

Sure. Your reaction to it though... For instance, percieving that you are fat, is an accurate apprehension of the world. Doesn't mean it can't have massive psychological ramifications.

 

Rand has a second conscieness in his mind, one that is asserting more and more control over his actions. What is resulting is that Rand's mental state is being compromised. He is growing increasingly unstable as a result. We make judgements of sanity and insanity based on person stability of personality. The dichotomoized state of Rands mind the increasing battle between Rand and LTT, is causing psychological instability.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. You essentially seem to be saying if I lost an arm and went crazy over it, that my first psychological symptom would be the losing of the arm.

 

Seem. I never said anything like that. I said that cancer can cause psychological symptoms. Symptoms by nature are the effect of a problem. In this case LTT's pressense is causing psychological symptoms of instablity, therefore Semi's assertation that such a state resulting in terminal madness is justified.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that because what is causing Rand's increasing instability is 'real' it can't result in Rand dissolving into madness? Percieving the world accurately can absolutely cause the dissolution of self suggested by Semirhage. The inability to accept that a person can experience insanity as a result of a 'real' problem is wrong. Cancerous tumours in the brain quite often result in insanity. Indeed, all of the psychological conditions we concider insanity are caused by real things. A lack in a chemical in the brain, the realisation of a social issue... etc.

[Luckers]

That's been my point. He's stressed to the max, but unstable behavior is to be expected in such circumstances. The question is, if you remove the destabalizing elements from the person's life, will they revert to their previous condition. It seems very likely that Rand, left alone, would mellow out and live happily ever after. Not that that's likely to happen, of course.

 

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that LTT is destablizing Rand's mental state, and can potentially result in terminal insanity--just as Semi said.

 

Perceiving something that is there is only a symptom of accurate apprehension of the world, nothing more.

 

Sure. Your reaction to it though... For instance, percieving that you are fat, is an accurate apprehension of the world. Doesn't mean it can't have massive psychological ramifications.

 

Rand has a second conscieness in his mind, one that is asserting more and more control over his actions. What is resulting is that Rand's mental state is being compromised. He is growing increasingly unstable as a result. We make judgements of sanity and insanity based on person stability of personality. The dichotomoized state of Rands mind the increasing battle between Rand and LTT, is causing psychological instability.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. You essentially seem to be saying if I lost an arm and went crazy over it, that my first psychological symptom would be the losing of the arm.

 

Seem. I never said anything like that. I said that cancer can cause psychological symptoms. Symptoms by nature are the effect of a problem. In this case LTT's pressense is causing psychological symptoms of instablity, therefore Semi's assertation that such a state resulting in terminal madness is justified.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that because what is causing Rand's increasing instability is 'real' it can't result in Rand dissolving into madness? Percieving the world accurately can absolutely cause the dissolution of self suggested by Semirhage. The inability to accept that a person can experience insanity as a result of a 'real' problem is wrong. Cancerous tumours in the brain quite often result in insanity. Indeed, all of the psychological conditions we concider insanity are caused by real things. A lack in a chemical in the brain, the realisation of a social issue... etc.

[Jedimuppet]

That's been my point. He's stressed to the max' date=' but unstable behavior is to be expected in such circumstances. The question is, if you remove the destabalizing elements from the person's life, will they revert to their previous condition. It seems very likely that Rand, left alone, would mellow out and live happily ever after. Not that that's likely to happen, of course. [/quote']

 

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that LTT is destablizing Rand's mental state, and can potentially result in terminal insanity--just as Semi said.

 

Perceiving something that is there is only a symptom of accurate apprehension of the world, nothing more.

 

Sure. Your reaction to it though... For instance, percieving that you are fat, is an accurate apprehension of the world. Doesn't mean it can't have massive psychological ramifications.

 

Rand has a second conscieness in his mind, one that is asserting more and more control over his actions. What is resulting is that Rand's mental state is being compromised. He is growing increasingly unstable as a result. We make judgements of sanity and insanity based on person stability of personality. The dichotomoized state of Rands mind the increasing battle between Rand and LTT, is causing psychological instability.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. You essentially seem to be saying if I lost an arm and went crazy over it, that my first psychological symptom would be the losing of the arm.

 

Seem. I never said anything like that. I said that cancer can cause psychological symptoms. Symptoms by nature are the effect of a problem. In this case LTT's pressense is causing psychological symptoms of instablity, therefore Semi's assertation that such a state resulting in terminal madness is justified.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to be arguing that because what is causing Rand's increasing instability is 'real' it can't result in Rand dissolving into madness? Percieving the world accurately can absolutely cause the dissolution of self suggested by Semirhage. The inability to accept that a person can experience insanity as a result of a 'real' problem is wrong. Cancerous tumours in the brain quite often result in insanity. Indeed, all of the psychological conditions we concider insanity are caused by real things. A lack in a chemical in the brain, the realisation of a social issue... etc.

 

I think you're arguing in circles now. I'm just saying he's not insane because he hears LTT. If he was to go insane later, that's possible, but LTT's voice is not a symptom. Til he goes insane, I don't consider hearing the voice a symptom of anything except being this world's Savior figure with all that entails.

J

[menzarra]

the reason LTT starts talking in Rand's head is the effect of Ishamael tryiing to take Rand's soul at the end of TDR. While he goes to grab Callandor he feels a tearing:

 

Ba'alzamon's blow struck him as he leapt' date=' struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away.[/quote']

 

It's in the next book the we first have LTT speak, when Lanfear shows up. This battle with Ishamael is the reason LTT begins to talk.

 

I just finished TDR for the 10 time i suppose but i missed that reference. (its amazing that no matter how many times you read a book there is always something you miss the first time.

 

As for his sickness, up until the last book i was sure that it was because of his exposure to the taint and perhaps his using the Sword that cannot be touch unfiltered. But now after thinking back and reading KoD i think i know. (IMO) Min has a viewing that Rand and Someone will merge (lack of a better word) Lews is always trying to take control, and now the ripping he feels within himself. The ripping could be the pattern tearing (thats what balefire does, tear/burn you out of the pattern) He was struck and for a moment he was being removed, but what it did was push aside his thread to bring his last incarnation to the "surface". So now his thread and Lews are being woven side by side. Its been said by Moiraine (can never remember the spelling of her name) or some other Aes Sedai that the pattern will force you into your proper place. Now there is an extra thread next to Rands. Wasnt Lew's a Ta'veren as well, if he was then you have 2 of them pushing and pulling at each other. Sooner or later the pattern will force them back together.

 

So in closing i think his sickness is a represenation of the pattern trying to force the 2 threads back together again. Rand only becomes weaking and shows visible signs when he opens himself to the source. Its been said that their greatest strength is their greatest weakness... eg....13 myrddraal and 13 Aes Sedai. He only becomes aware of the "merging" when he opens himself up.

 

 

just my opinion.